*** Vision (Android Avenger) ***

Ebolamonkey84

notamutant wrote:

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless.

Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me?

Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers.

I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately.

Unknown

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

notamutant wrote:

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless.

Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me?

Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers.

I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately.

So it differs from strike tiles in this way. I didn't even notice the match 3 damage, just the damage done to the enemy was being boosted appropriately.

I think it would be generous to say you could trigger his blue 4 times in 4 turns. Not impossible but above average. Given that, plus the 3 additional by use of his red, you can get 723 x7 or 5061 damage for 5 blue, which isn't horrible. Plus 6777 for his red. All in that's 11,838 damage for 15 AP, 789.2 damage per AP which is on the high side of "pretty good". So why does he still seem so terrible?

2 reason that I can see make Vision a limited playability character. 1) The density tile is a CD, randomly placed. It needs it's duration extended to at least 8 if it is going to remain a CD, but a better option IMO is a "density" special tile. If it's going to be randomly placed, just make it last forever. He does exactly 1 thing. Blue into Red for team damage. His Yellow, being predicated on him being out front, isn't great because while it can protect from match damage it is of little usefulness vs powers. And once you kill someone your damage output drops incredibly to 638.6 for 2 targets and even lower for 1 target. With Cyclops overshadowing his base red, with more damage and more random tiles destroyed, it's safe to say the only time you should ever use it is with a blue Heavy Density out.

So your choices are either build a team where he takes 3-5 colors, or have him out front on blue only (maybe red) and ignore his yellow entirely. Both choices are not really ideal, for a character with so little health you don't want him tanking so many colors to take maximum advantage of his blue and ignoring an ability is like removing a third of a characters appeal.

The yellow is not good for the AI either and makes him terrible on defense. Red being above Yellow basically means the AI will never get Light Disruption right either. This gives you only one method to play Vision, collect 5 blue and 10 or 20 red and goto town. While that is ok once or twice, Thor users can tell you it got old quickly. At least 4Thor had a yellow power you could throw in once in a while for minimal damage and utility.

Overall interesting concept, but flawed execution, I'd give him a 2 out of 10 right now. He is the first 3* I am considering selling from my roster permanently.

PS: Can a mod please edit his ability details into the original post and add a build poll?

Mawtful

So there was a special "Easter Egg" teased for the Vision when on the same team as Scarlet Witch.

As far as I can tell, he does nothing - but he does that for everyone.

Unknown

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

notamutant wrote:

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless.

Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me?

Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers.

I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately.

I'll have to watch for that if I ever actually manage to get another blue match with the blue on.

I also have to note that they don't seem to be trying to build characters that their extremely simple ai can use at all. I'm glad for bad ai when I'm in a battle but it really limits which characters can be used in PvP. Even fully covered I guarantee you nobody puts vision in.

Ludaa

In our chat I think someone pointed out that there hands were touching/holding if you order them SW/Vis/Random....lame

Mawtful

Ludaa wrote:

In our chat I think someone pointed out that there hands were touching/holding if you order them SW/Vis/Random....lame

Haha. That's terrible.

Although... It also works for PX/Vision/Random. I'm not one to judge.

Wolarsen

If you put them together, she gets expecting!

OnesOwnGrief

._. Really? If that's what they call an easter egg then that's so weak. So very weak. I hope we haven't discovered what it was yet..

madsalad

Arimis Thorn wrote:

Now that I've finally had a chance to play with a fully covered Vision in PVE, wow yeah just terrible.

I really wanted to be wrong and maybe I just got bad boards, but given that his buffs from the Yellow and Blue tiles only affect him, there's ZERO reason to have them out until you have 10 red. And as the video points out, that basically makes his red a 15 cost power and there are just better options.

All of this. Man, I really hope d3 makes some changes to this character. He just seems so low tier. I mean, I guess there are always going to be those characters, it's what makes for a diverse roster. But, right now, I can't see me including Vision on a team for any reason other than being essential for the node.

xdogg

SW, Psylocke, random loks better

dkffiv

Did some thinking and this is the best I could come up with:

Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki Link
At Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x

Density: Heavy - 5 AP
Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision increases his match damage on blue, yellow, red, and TU by 189 damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic blue tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Level 3/4/5 Level 166: Vision deals 600 more damage.

Attack Protocol - 10 AP
Changes based on Vision's density.
Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.
Light Disruption - Deals 184 damage and converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 45 damage per tile.
Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 267 + 67 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 351 + 88 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 519 + 130 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 854 + 214 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 1115 + 280 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1940 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1647 + 412 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2287 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 2710 + 678 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2982 damage.

Density: Light - 5 AP
Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces all damage taken to himself to 1 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic yellow tile or tile lasts 5 turns)

Changes:
Increases his base match damage value so he's nearly guaranteed to tank red/yellow/blue/Team Ups when his density tile is up. More covers increases duration, final cover maybe allow it to be placed. If 4/5 turns is too OP, cut the 1 cover damage by 50% and make the second or third cover do the full 100% and remove 1 turn that way.

No changes other than adding a constant source of damage on + (and reducing the tile conversion damage) so the ability isn't useless if you're in yellow stance. * + damage has been rolled into heavy strike's base damage since blue no longer modifies ability damage. Low level numbers are off because of this.

Reduces all damage taken to 1 making him a super tank while its up. Only works if he's out front so he'll be reliant on being able to tank his colors, if the duration is too OP have it progress like 50% reduction / 2 turns / 3 turns / reduces to 1 damage / 4 turns or placeable. The code is already in place to drop damage to 1, that's how Elektra's black works.

Phaserhawk

Lerysh wrote:

Ebolamonkey84 wrote:

notamutant wrote:

GunnerMcGrath wrote:

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless.

Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me?

Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers.

I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately.

So it differs from strike tiles in this way. I didn't even notice the match 3 damage, just the damage done to the enemy was being boosted appropriately.

I think it would be generous to say you could trigger his blue 4 times in 4 turns. Not impossible but above average. Given that, plus the 3 additional by use of his red, you can get 723 x7 or 5061 damage for 5 blue, which isn't horrible. Plus 6777 for his red. All in that's 11,838 damage for 15 AP, 789.2 damage per AP which is on the high side of "pretty good". So why does he still seem so terrible?

2 reason that I can see make Vision a limited playability character. 1) The density tile is a CD, randomly placed. It needs it's duration extended to at least 8 if it is going to remain a CD, but a better option IMO is a "density" special tile. If it's going to be randomly placed, just make it last forever. He does exactly 1 thing. Blue into Red for team damage. His Yellow, being predicated on him being out front, isn't great because while it can protect from match damage it is of little usefulness vs powers. And once you kill someone your damage output drops incredibly to 638.6 for 2 targets and even lower for 1 target. With Cyclops overshadowing his base red, with more damage and more random tiles destroyed, it's safe to say the only time you should ever use it is with a blue Heavy Density out.

So your choices are either build a team where he takes 3-5 colors, or have him out front on blue only (maybe red) and ignore his yellow entirely. Both choices are not really ideal, for a character with so little health you don't want him tanking so many colors to take maximum advantage of his blue and ignoring an ability is like removing a third of a characters appeal.

The yellow is not good for the AI either and makes him terrible on defense. Red being above Yellow basically means the AI will never get Light Disruption right either. This gives you only one method to play Vision, collect 5 blue and 10 or 20 red and goto town. While that is ok once or twice, Thor users can tell you it got old quickly. At least 4Thor had a yellow power you could throw in once in a while for minimal damage and utility.

Overall interesting concept, but flawed execution, I'd give him a 2 out of 10 right now. He is the first 3* I am considering selling from my roster permanently.

PS: Can a mod please edit his ability details into the original post and add a build poll?

I think the reason the cd is the way it is is because it's 5ap. Look at Mystique purple. That lasts 8 turns but costs 8. I would rather have Visions cheap but shorter due to randomness at least you are out less AP

Unknown

madsalad wrote:

Arimis Thorn wrote:

Now that I've finally had a chance to play with a fully covered Vision in PVE, wow yeah just terrible.

I really wanted to be wrong and maybe I just got bad boards, but given that his buffs from the Yellow and Blue tiles only affect him, there's ZERO reason to have them out until you have 10 red. And as the video points out, that basically makes his red a 15 cost power and there are just better options.

All of this. Man, I really hope d3 makes some changes to this character. He just seems so low tier. I mean, I guess there are always going to be those characters, it's what makes for a diverse roster. But, right now, I can't see me including Vision on a team for any reason other than being essential for the node.

Sure there's always low tier characters, but that doesn't mean they're UNUSABLE.

Every character should be usable if D3 expects us to use random 2*/3*/4* characters for events and since the characters we're given are RANDOM as well.

If D3 wants to hand everyone Iron Fist/Professor X/Hulkbuster, then sure, we don't have to worry about 'unusable' characters.

But reality is, we do.

PS: There's also the fact that people actually WANT good characters beyond 1 cover. That should be $$$ incentive enough.

dkffiv wrote:

Did some thinking and this is the best I could come up with:

Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki Link
At Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x

Density: Heavy - 5 AP
Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision increases his match damage on blue, yellow, red, and TU by 189 damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic blue tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Level 3/4/5 Level 166: Vision deals 600 more damage.

Attack Protocol - 10 AP
Changes based on Vision's density.
Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.
Light Disruption - Deals 184 damage and converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 45 damage per tile.
Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 267 + 67 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 351 + 88 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 519 + 130 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 854 + 214 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 1115 + 280 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1940 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1647 + 412 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2287 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 2710 + 678 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2982 damage.

Density: Light - 5 AP
Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces all damage taken to himself to 1 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic yellow tile or tile lasts 5 turns)

Changes:
Increases his base match damage value so he's nearly guaranteed to tank red/yellow/blue/Team Ups when his density tile is up. More covers increases duration, final cover maybe allow it to be placed. If 4/5 turns is too OP, cut the 1 cover damage by 50% and make the second or third cover do the full 100% and remove 1 turn that way.

No changes other than adding a constant source of damage on + (and reducing the tile conversion damage) so the ability isn't useless if you're in yellow stance. * + damage has been rolled into heavy strike's base damage since blue no longer modifies ability damage. Low level numbers are off because of this.

Reduces all damage taken to 1 making him a super tank while its up. Only works if he's out front so he'll be reliant on being able to tank his colors, if the duration is too OP have it progress like 50% reduction / 2 turns / 3 turns / reduces to 1 damage / 4 turns or placeable. The code is already in place to drop damage to 1, that's how Elektra's black works.

excellent job - his yellow works like how I suggested Colossus' Yellow worked!!

Phaserhawk wrote:

I think the reason the cd is the way it is is because it's 5ap. Look at Mystique purple. That lasts 8 turns but costs 8. I would rather have Visions cheap but shorter due to randomness at least you are out less AP

I'd rather have a usable character

Unknown

dkffiv wrote:

Did some thinking and this is the best I could come up with:

Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:
3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki Link
At Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x

Density: Heavy - 5 AP
Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision increases his match damage on blue, yellow, red, and TU by 189 damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic blue tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Level 3/4/5 Level 166: Vision deals 600 more damage.

Attack Protocol - 10 AP
Changes based on Vision's density.
Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.
Light Disruption - Deals 184 damage and converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 45 damage per tile.
Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 267 + 67 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 351 + 88 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 519 + 130 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 854 + 214 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 1115 + 280 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1940 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1647 + 412 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2287 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 2710 + 678 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2982 damage.

Density: Light - 5 AP
Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces all damage taken to himself to 1 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic yellow tile or tile lasts 5 turns)

Changes:
Increases his base match damage value so he's nearly guaranteed to tank red/yellow/blue/Team Ups when his density tile is up. More covers increases duration, final cover maybe allow it to be placed. If 4/5 turns is too OP, cut the 1 cover damage by 50% and make the second or third cover do the full 100% and remove 1 turn that way.

No changes other than adding a constant source of damage on + (and reducing the tile conversion damage) so the ability isn't useless if you're in yellow stance. * + damage has been rolled into heavy strike's base damage since blue no longer modifies ability damage. Low level numbers are off because of this.

Reduces all damage taken to 1 making him a super tank while its up. Only works if he's out front so he'll be reliant on being able to tank his colors, if the duration is too OP have it progress like 50% reduction / 2 turns / 3 turns / reduces to 1 damage / 4 turns or placeable. The code is already in place to drop damage to 1, that's how Elektra's black works.

I like the change to his yellow, I don't really like the change to his blue tho. Even with folding the old damage into Heavy Strike, causing him to tank all his colors will cause him to lose a fair amount of Hit Points. And if you are building around his yellow being able to tank anyway, he's already tanking colors without a boost.

dkffiv

Lerysh wrote:

I like the change to his yellow, I don't really like the change to his blue tho. Even with folding the old damage into Heavy Strike, causing him to tank all his colors will cause him to lose a fair amount of Hit Points. And if you are building around his yellow being able to tank anyway, he's already tanking colors without a boost.

With this skill set you're much less locked in to who you can and cannot use with him. Activate blue when he has the hit points to use it and avoid it otherwise. To maximize yellow you'd want him tanking all 3/4 but its not really necessary. As long as you save a token match or two in a corner (probably red) you can save yellow for when a big ability is about to hit, then match it to have Vision absorb it.

Depending on who you bring with him blue could also be used defensively to have him jump out front and protect your other red/blue/yellow user (especially if he's lower level than the rest). I'd rather an underleveled / low cover Vision take a big hit than (CMag in this current heroic).

Unknown

Speaking as a 2* to 3* transition-er, I just got my and test-drove Vision (now L40 1/1/1) in this PvE, and...

He's not all that bad. Ran him with SG & Mystique (my A team is currently DOA), and they had a nice synergy going, aside from the conflicts between Vision & Mystique and the with Mystique and SG.

That to of his? Yeah, that's pretty alright ( ), at least at my level of play and roster depth. Not sure I'm in love with the ...

All in all, I've been less impressed with other characters, so I'm pretty happy to have him aboard atm.

Edit: Just caught the "tanking" piece in the post above mine, and I have to say, running him with OBW was also nice. She was limping along at low-ish health with him in front of her allowing for matches. I ended up deciding on-the-fly whether I wanted to gather resources or knock people down, all-the-while having what amounted to twice the health to safely gather ...

DBC

Unknown

It's the "not sure I love the " that pushes him down. Any character that has a third of his function stripped because of a faulty power can never be A tier. You can have "this power is less useful and therefore at 3 covers" but you can not have "this power is not useful at all"

I mean, just look at Captain America. His holds him back from being great also.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

It's the "not sure I love the " that pushes him down. Any character that has a third of his function stripped because of a faulty power can never be A tier. You can have "this power is less useful and therefore at 3 covers" but you can not have "this power is not useful at all"

I mean, just look at Captain America. His holds him back from being great also.

there'sa big difference between vision and steve, the beast/vision comparision holds more weight

or even the classic "Wait until you have 30 with psylocke"

Unknown

I'd really like to see them change him asap. He was just released and already needs a QoL badly. I think it would be really great if the devs let us know what heroes were coming and get feedback on what we would like to see from the character would be great. Gazillion Entertainment does this for Marvel Heroes and it really helps.

jimstarooney

I think he looks great and applaud d3ps "vision".paired with a shield and strike tile generator hes could be tricky, leading to people hittin that skip button.