notamutant wrote: GunnerMcGrath wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless. Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me? Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers.
GunnerMcGrath wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless. Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me?
Ebolamonkey84 wrote: notamutant wrote: GunnerMcGrath wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless. Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me? Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers. I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately.
Ludaa wrote: In our chat I think someone pointed out that there hands were touching/holding if you order them SW/Vis/Random....lame
Arimis Thorn wrote: Now that I've finally had a chance to play with a fully covered Vision in PVE, wow yeah just terrible. I really wanted to be wrong and maybe I just got bad boards, but given that his buffs from the Yellow and Blue tiles only affect him, there's ZERO reason to have them out until you have 10 red. And as the video points out, that basically makes his red a 15 cost power and there are just better options.
Lerysh wrote: Ebolamonkey84 wrote: notamutant wrote: GunnerMcGrath wrote: I'm not sure if I'm missing something here, but when using Vision in the match where he's fully covered, I lay down a blue tile, and then make a blue match, and there's no damage increase. The way I'm reading the power is that every time he attacks he should be doing X more damage (something like 700 in that match). But that doesn't seem to be happening from what I can tell. Either it's a bug, or I'm an idiot, or I'm reading the power wrong. As it stands Blue by itself seems to be completely useless. Anyone else have this experience or can clarify for me? Are you using another blue user that has higher blue match damage? If so, then you won't activate Vision's blue power on a match. That is why you are so limited in partners with him, to maximize his blue, you have very few characters without conflicting powers. I noticed that the damage indicator by the actual match 3 looked unboosted, but when I actually looked at the damage indicator by the enemy's HP it was boosted appropriately. So it differs from strike tiles in this way. I didn't even notice the match 3 damage, just the damage done to the enemy was being boosted appropriately. I think it would be generous to say you could trigger his blue 4 times in 4 turns. Not impossible but above average. Given that, plus the 3 additional by use of his red, you can get 723 x7 or 5061 damage for 5 blue, which isn't horrible. Plus 6777 for his red. All in that's 11,838 damage for 15 AP, 789.2 damage per AP which is on the high side of "pretty good". So why does he still seem so terrible? 2 reason that I can see make Vision a limited playability character. 1) The density tile is a CD, randomly placed. It needs it's duration extended to at least 8 if it is going to remain a CD, but a better option IMO is a "density" special tile. If it's going to be randomly placed, just make it last forever. He does exactly 1 thing. Blue into Red for team damage. His Yellow, being predicated on him being out front, isn't great because while it can protect from match damage it is of little usefulness vs powers. And once you kill someone your damage output drops incredibly to 638.6 for 2 targets and even lower for 1 target. With Cyclops overshadowing his base red, with more damage and more random tiles destroyed, it's safe to say the only time you should ever use it is with a blue Heavy Density out. So your choices are either build a team where he takes 3-5 colors, or have him out front on blue only (maybe red) and ignore his yellow entirely. Both choices are not really ideal, for a character with so little health you don't want him tanking so many colors to take maximum advantage of his blue and ignoring an ability is like removing a third of a characters appeal. The yellow is not good for the AI either and makes him terrible on defense. Red being above Yellow basically means the AI will never get Light Disruption right either. This gives you only one method to play Vision, collect 5 blue and 10 or 20 red and goto town. While that is ok once or twice, Thor users can tell you it got old quickly. At least 4Thor had a yellow power you could throw in once in a while for minimal damage and utility. Overall interesting concept, but flawed execution, I'd give him a 2 out of 10 right now. He is the first 3* I am considering selling from my roster permanently. PS: Can a mod please edit his ability details into the original post and add a build poll?
madsalad wrote: Arimis Thorn wrote: Now that I've finally had a chance to play with a fully covered Vision in PVE, wow yeah just terrible. I really wanted to be wrong and maybe I just got bad boards, but given that his buffs from the Yellow and Blue tiles only affect him, there's ZERO reason to have them out until you have 10 red. And as the video points out, that basically makes his red a 15 cost power and there are just better options. All of this. Man, I really hope d3 makes some changes to this character. He just seems so low tier. I mean, I guess there are always going to be those characters, it's what makes for a diverse roster. But, right now, I can't see me including Vision on a team for any reason other than being essential for the node.
dkffiv wrote: Did some thinking and this is the best I could come up with:Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki LinkAt Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x Density: Heavy - 5 AP Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision increases his match damage on blue, yellow, red, and TU by 189 damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.Level Upgrades Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic blue tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Level 3/4/5 Level 166: Vision deals 600 more damage. Attack Protocol - 10 AP Changes based on Vision's density.Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.Light Disruption - Deals 184 damage and converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 45 damage per tile.Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.Level Upgrades Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 267 + 67 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 351 + 88 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 519 + 130 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 854 + 214 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 1115 + 280 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1940 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1647 + 412 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2287 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 2710 + 678 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2982 damage.Density: Light - 5 AP Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces all damage taken to himself to 1 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.Level Upgrades Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic yellow tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Changes: Increases his base match damage value so he's nearly guaranteed to tank red/yellow/blue/Team Ups when his density tile is up. More covers increases duration, final cover maybe allow it to be placed. If 4/5 turns is too OP, cut the 1 cover damage by 50% and make the second or third cover do the full 100% and remove 1 turn that way. No changes other than adding a constant source of damage on + (and reducing the tile conversion damage) so the ability isn't useless if you're in yellow stance. * + damage has been rolled into heavy strike's base damage since blue no longer modifies ability damage. Low level numbers are off because of this. Reduces all damage taken to 1 making him a super tank while its up. Only works if he's out front so he'll be reliant on being able to tank his colors, if the duration is too OP have it progress like 50% reduction / 2 turns / 3 turns / reduces to 1 damage / 4 turns or placeable. The code is already in place to drop damage to 1, that's how Elektra's black works.
Phaserhawk wrote: I think the reason the cd is the way it is is because it's 5ap. Look at Mystique purple. That lasts 8 turns but costs 8. I would rather have Visions cheap but shorter due to randomness at least you are out less AP
dkffiv wrote: Did some thinking and this is the best I could come up with: Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki LinkAt Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x Density: Heavy - 5 AP Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision increases his match damage on blue, yellow, red, and TU by 189 damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.Level Upgrades Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic blue tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Level 3/4/5 Level 166: Vision deals 600 more damage. Attack Protocol - 10 AP Changes based on Vision's density.Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.Light Disruption - Deals 184 damage and converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 45 damage per tile.Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.Level Upgrades Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 267 + 67 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 351 + 88 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 519 + 130 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 854 + 214 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 1115 + 280 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1940 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1647 + 412 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2287 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 2710 + 678 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2982 damage.Density: Light - 5 AP Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 1-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces all damage taken to himself to 1 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.Level Upgrades Level 2: Lasts 2 turns. Level 3: Lasts 3 turns. Level 4: Lasts 4 turns. Level 5: (Tile becomes placeable on a basic yellow tile or tile lasts 5 turns) Changes: Increases his base match damage value so he's nearly guaranteed to tank red/yellow/blue/Team Ups when his density tile is up. More covers increases duration, final cover maybe allow it to be placed. If 4/5 turns is too OP, cut the 1 cover damage by 50% and make the second or third cover do the full 100% and remove 1 turn that way. No changes other than adding a constant source of damage on + (and reducing the tile conversion damage) so the ability isn't useless if you're in yellow stance. * + damage has been rolled into heavy strike's base damage since blue no longer modifies ability damage. Low level numbers are off because of this. Reduces all damage taken to 1 making him a super tank while its up. Only works if he's out front so he'll be reliant on being able to tank his colors, if the duration is too OP have it progress like 50% reduction / 2 turns / 3 turns / reduces to 1 damage / 4 turns or placeable. The code is already in place to drop damage to 1, that's how Elektra's black works.
Lerysh wrote: I like the change to his yellow, I don't really like the change to his blue tho. Even with folding the old damage into Heavy Strike, causing him to tank all his colors will cause him to lose a fair amount of Hit Points. And if you are building around his yellow being able to tank anyway, he's already tanking colors without a boost.
Lerysh wrote: It's the "not sure I love the " that pushes him down. Any character that has a third of his function stripped because of a faulty power can never be A tier. You can have "this power is less useful and therefore at 3 covers" but you can not have "this power is not useful at all" I mean, just look at Captain America. His holds him back from being great also.