*** Vision (Android Avenger) ***

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  • I tested the heavy hit to answer the question above without strike tiles, will try with them now and will update shortly.

    edit: done.
  • notamutantnotamutant Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
    Vision (Android Avenger) :vision:
    3 Star Rarity (Rare) Wiki Link
    At Max Level: HP: 9690 Tile Damage: 61/70/79/13/12/11/3.5x
      Density: Heavy - 5 bluetile.png AP
      Vision increases his density, making himself incredibly heavy. Creates a Density: Heavy Blue 4-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision deals 88 more damage and his Red power becomes Heavy Strike. Destroys any existing Density tile.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: Vision deals 106 more damage. Level 3: Vision deals 123 more damage. Level 4: Vision deals 158 more damage. Level 5: Vision deals 229 more damage. Level 3 Level 166: Vision deals 389 more damage. Level 4 Level 166: Vision deals 500 more damage. Level 5 Level 166: Vision deals 723 more damage.
      Attack Protocol - 10 redtile.png AP
      Changes based on Vision's density.
      Solar Beam - Deals 184 damage and destroys a random + of tiles.
      Light Disruption - Converts up to 2 enemy Strike or Protect tiles to basic tiles. Deals 137 damage per tile.
      Heavy Strike - Deals 274 damage to the enemy team.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: Solar beam deals 267 damage. Light disruption deals 192 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 329 damage. Level 3: Solar beam deals 351 damage. Light disruption deals 247 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 384 damage. Level 4: Solar beam deals 519 damage. Light disruption deals 356 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 493 damage. Level 5: Solar beam deals 854 damage. Light disruption deals 575 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 712 damage. Level 3 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1115 damage. Light disruption deals 783 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1217 damage. Level 4 Level 166: Solar beam deals 1647 damage. Light disruption deals 1131 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 1564 damage. Level 5 Level 166: Solar beam deals 2710 damage. Light disruption deals 1827 damage per tile converted. Heavy strike hits the enemy team for 2259 damage.
      Density: Light - 5 yellowtile.png AP
      Vision reduces his density, becoming intangible. Creates a Density: Light Yellow 4-turn Countdown Tile. While this tile is on the board, Vision reduces damage to himself by 88 and his Red power becomes Light Disruption. Destroys any existing Density tile.
      Level Upgrades
        Level 2: Reduces damage to Vision by 106. Level 3: Reduces damage to Vision by 123. Level 4: Reduces damage to Vision by 158. Level 5: Reduces damage to Vision by 229. Level 3 Level 166: Reduces damage to Vision by 389. Level 4 Level 166:Reduces damage to Vision by 500. Level 5 Level 166:Reduces damage to Vision by 723.
    • Might have some limited use with Kamala. Cheap abilities lead to quick heals with ability coverage on 5 colors, and the ability to convert unneeded black to green with Incredible Stretchiness. Still seems pretty underwhelming.
    • his "protect" is the same as his "attack" value, I can't see him being good. We all know which way the cookie crumbles.
    • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
      ShionSinX wrote:
      It doesnt work like OBW Espionage, because with Density Heavy up, when I made a black match I see a -33 near the match and then on the enemy it appears the extra damage as it was a cast power, BUT it does not proc twice the strike tiles.
      I think the other question is, if your move generates two matches, do you get the 723 once or twice?
    • wymtimewymtime Posts: 3,642 Chairperson of the Boards
      ShionSinX wrote:
      I tested the heavy hit to answer the question above without strike tiles, will try with them now and will update shortly.

      edit: done.
      First thanks for spending the HP to get this character and give feedback.
      2nd on heavy does when you fire his red does the extra 723 hit all targets or 1? 3k AOE on red would be the best red AOE in the game currently.

      I stI'll think he will be a character that players will use well, but the AI will not.
    • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
      Out of curiosity, does his red work as either Blast or Light or Dense or does blast always happen and then the light or dense effect is tacked on?

      Because if it's Blast + Light or Blast + Dense then 10 is a fair costed red ability, but if it's 1 and not 1+1, then most of the time that's going to be a very expensive dmg spell.
    • simonsez wrote:
      ShionSinX wrote:
      It doesnt work like OBW Espionage, because with Density Heavy up, when I made a black match I see a -33 near the match and then on the enemy it appears the extra damage as it was a cast power, BUT it does not proc twice the strike tiles.
      I think the other question is, if your move generates two matches, do you get the 723 once or twice?
      I mean if it triggers more than once, something like gsbw purple can deal a million damage with this.
    • notamutantnotamutant Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
      Phaserhawk wrote:
      Out of curiosity, does his red work as either Blast or Light or Dense or does blast always happen and then the light or dense effect is tacked on?

      Because if it's Blast + Light or Blast + Dense then 10 is a fair costed red ability, but if it's 1 and not 1+1, then most of the time that's going to be a very expensive dmg spell.

      It is three separate skills, it doesn't do blast and then one of the other skills. It pretty much sucks. I will probably be uploading my video on Sunday so you can see it in action. Do not bother pushing this PvE, Vision is not that good in PvE or PvP.
    • notamutantnotamutant Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
      ArkPrime wrote:
      simonsez wrote:
      ShionSinX wrote:
      It doesnt work like OBW Espionage, because with Density Heavy up, when I made a black match I see a -33 near the match and then on the enemy it appears the extra damage as it was a cast power, BUT it does not proc twice the strike tiles.
      I think the other question is, if your move generates two matches, do you get the 723 once or twice?
      I mean if it triggers more than once, something like gsbw purple can deal a million damage with this.

      It has to be Vision's colors or move to work though, and green is not his color nor is GSBW's purple his move.
    • dkffivdkffiv Posts: 1,036 Chairperson of the Boards
      He has all the problems of Mystique without the instant knockout if you get the combo to work. Mystique is terrible and he's a rung below her. Density should either be a stance, a permanent tile (like Invisibility), or at the very least last 9 turns. 4 turns is not a lot of time and they are nowhere near as good as Star-Lord's (and we already complain about how bad his red and yellow are) - with Mystique if her purple is in a corner I usually let it sit there for a while before I fire off black. Because his tiles are so short its hard to get usage out of the passive ability.


      bluetile.png The +damage only affects match damage and his own red so if he isn't tanking all 3 of his colors its hard to get mileage out of it.
      bluetile.pngredtile.png If the combo goes off it deals 2982 x3, 8946 damage for 15 AP. Almost 600 damage per AP, I suppose its decent. If you can manage to double cast its 716 damage per AP.
      redtile.png Deals 2710 damage and a random + (5 tiles total). Very low potential for cascades and 271 damage per AP is pretty bad. Its like a much worse version of pre-nerf Xforce greentile.png or a nearly on par version of the current (2x the damage but lower cascade potential and 2 more AP)
      yellowtile.png Only works if he's tanking the damage (so you need to form a team where he's matching his own colors) and the reduction isn't that much, its only really negating match damage. Its like a Luke Cage protect.png that only works on him and only lasts 4 turns / is matchable.
      yellowtile.pngredtile.png Only works on enemystrike.png and enemyprotect.png NOT on eattack.png so its really hard to get mileage out of it. 3654 damage for 15 AP its 244 damage per AP + you remove 2 enemy tiles.

      His yellow is garbage and the only way you're doing serious damage is blue into red. The advantage is that red doesn't destroy the density tile so if you can pull off 5 bluetile.png 20 redtile.png you will deal 2982 x6 (17892). I found that it was really hard to gather that much red (only reason I used to be able to do it with 4hor was because of charged tiles) and he'd be a lot better off if bluetile.png + yellowtile.png were raised to 6 or 7 AP (maybe 5 turn tile) and red was dropped to 8.

      If Vision is the last man standing he can do some decent damage with blue up but I wouldn't count on it. The only saving grace is that blue comes after yellow so if the AI is just burning its AP its more likely to get stuck in blue stance. I can definitely see the AI casting yellow and then immediately overwriting it with blue on the same turn.

      I think he might be worse than Quicksilver.
    • evil pandaevil panda Posts: 419 Mover and Shaker
      this is good news! with the PVE for Vision and the Beast-for-Doc Ock rewards tinykittyshow in PVP, Demiurge is kindly allowing its players some quality time to recover from Ultron burnout icon_lol.gif
    • edited May 2015
      Density: Heavy tile, adding 723 to the 2259. So 5 bluetile.png 10 redtile.png does 2982*3 or 596.4 damage per AP. 5 bluetile.png 20 redtile.png does 2982*6 or 715.68 damage per AP. Those numbers aren't bad, but it's literally the only thing he does. Everything else he's garbage at. And once you off a character so he loses 33% of his damage then you need a better Red outlet. Maybe pair him with Cyclops? Or Hulkbuster? Overload into double Heavy Strike has potential for huge damage, and only requires 5 bluetile.png 11 blacktile.png 11 redtile.png . Plus once you kill a guy you can switch to Repulsor Punch for redtile.png .
    • I don't understand how 10 ap for 2k damage is a bad thing. I mean there are moves that are 13 ap and do 6k damage conditionally. This just kinda sounds free and it has the potential for a whole team hit too on top of if i'm understanding right the adding bonus from the strike tile. I don't know i'm just not seeing how this character is bad.

      I may just be blinded by the fact that I have 3 roster slots waiting to be filled by something useable(thanks ultron) and all I've gotten is ragnarok. But I still think vision looks like a fun character and sounds like a good character. What do I know though.
    • AronditeArondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
      Does Heavy Strike destroy the Density Tile? If not, I think it's a little silly to include the 5 Blue in the casting cost of the ability.

      Yes, the Density Tile has it's own cost, but it has it's own benefits as well. The 5 Blue should be compared and weighed against that, not the Red. If you're going to cost Heavy Strike at 15 and divide the damage by 15, I think it's also important to make a "*" at the end to note that you're also doing 723 extra damage on any of Vision's matches.

      That's just me, I guess.
    • That's true, but that's also like saying Masterstroke for Mystique does 7800 damage for 11 AP. It doesn't, you need 19, because you have to Shapeshift first.

      For 10 AP you get 2710 damage and some random tile destruction. For 15 AP you get 2259+723 AoE damage and a 4 turn CD that affects his match damage.

      The CD does have it's own effect, but it's primary effect is to change the function of his redflag.png
    • dkffivdkffiv Posts: 1,036 Chairperson of the Boards
      edited May 2015
      Lerysh wrote:
      @dkffiv - You forgot the nessisarily present Density: Heavy tile, adding 723 to the 2710. So 5 bluetile.png 10 redtile.png does 3433x3 or 686.6 damage per AP. 5 bluetile.png 20 redtile.png does 3433x6 or 824 damage per AP. Those numbers aren't bad, but it's literally the only thing he does. Everything else he's garbage at. And once you off a character so he loses 33% of his damage then you need a better Red outlet. Maybe pair him with Cyclops? Or Hulkbuster? Overload into double Heavy Strike has potential for huge damage, and only requires 5 bluetile.png 11 blacktile.png 11 redtile.png .

      Solar Beam does 2710, Heavy Strike does 2259. 2259 + 723 = 2982. I don't think I'd pair him with HB, HB's red and blue are on par or better than Vision and Vision's yellow is trash. Vision would at best be tanking blue and yellow so it'll be hard to use his match damage.
      Cyclopes wrote:
      I don't understand how 10 ap for 2k damage is a bad thing. I mean there are moves that are 13 ap and do 6k damage conditionally. This just kinda sounds free and it has the potential for a whole team hit too on top of if i'm understanding right the adding bonus from the strike tile. I don't know i'm just not seeing how this character is bad.

      I may just be blinded by the fact that I have 3 roster slots waiting to be filled by something useable(thanks ultron) and all I've gotten is ragnarok. But I still think vision looks like a fun character and sounds like a good character. What do I know though.

      Vs. Heavy Strike, Kamala Khan does 3390x3 for 12 AP, has a personal accelerator and doesn't require a combo to get off.

      Compared to Solar Beam (271 AP ratio + minor cascade):
      5 cover Blade black is 235 AP ratio + 3 AP steal per turn
      CapAm is 366 AP r + potential to return 10 AP back
      Cap Marvel black is 278 AP r + 2 turn stun (but gives enemy a 53 str enemystrike.png )
      Cyclops is 428 AP r
      DP is 550 AP r, drops to 271 AP r if target has 2500 or less life.
      Doctor Doom purple has a minimum of 226 AP r, more likely around 452.
      Gamora 5 red is 344 and is generally considered weak
      Torch is 424 AP r but in most circumstances you'd count it as 565.
      If you consider the black requirement on IF's purple, its 242 AP r for the first cast. After that its 823.
      Arondite wrote:
      Does Heavy Strike destroy the Density Tile? If not, I think it's a little silly to include the 5 Blue in the casting cost of the ability.

      Yes, the Density Tile has it's own cost, but it has it's own benefits as well. The 5 Blue should be compared and weighed against that, not the Red. If you're going to cost Heavy Strike at 15 and divide the damage by 15, I think it's also important to make a "*" at the end to note that you're also doing 723 extra damage on any of Vision's matches.

      That's just me, I guess.

      Heavy Strike doesn't destroy the tile but it only lasts 4 turns - think about how often you get Jab Jab Cross combos off with Cage if you cast the first one early and "hope" to get more AP before the tile disappears. Cost wise I think its fair to call it 15, unless you're swimming in blue you really don't want to cast it without having the red ready to back it up.

      Some math probably needs to be done on blue, I guess you would average 2 or 3 Vision attacks per cast of blue making it around 439 AP r but its extremely conditional. You also need to build a team around him to ensure he's tanking his colors to exploit this. In most situations he's only tanking red and blue as you'd want to bring a better yellow user around so getting 2 attacks per blue cast may be difficult.

      From the matches I've played with him I've been forced to bring a yellow outlet for him (who ends up tanking yellow). I'm running around gathering red so that by the time I'm ready to set off the blue / red combo there's almost no matches left for him to make so I can't get mileage out of his heavy passive. He just feels really clunky and his personal temporary strike/protect tile buff just seems a lot worse than passives from Blade + Cage. An interesting change may be to make him function like Colossus where if the yellow tile is out he is automatically brought to the front and if blue is out his match damage is increased by 723 for all colors (effectively making the entire board his).
    • evil panda wrote:
      this is good news! with the PVE for Vision and the Beast-for-Doc Ock rewards tinykittyshow in PVP, Demiurge is kindly allowing its players some quality time to recover from Ultron burnout icon_lol.gif
      He is truly D3's "Vision" of how "balance" works icon_e_wink.gif
    • AronditeArondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
      dkffiv wrote:
      Heavy Strike doesn't destroy the tile but it only lasts 4 turns - think about how often you get Jab Jab Cross combos off with Cage if you cast the first one early and "hope" to get more AP before the tile disappears. Cost wise I think its fair to call it 15, unless you're swimming in blue you really don't want to cast it without having the red ready to back it up.

      Well, I'm not really talking about 2 reds per Heavy Tile. I'm just saying that the Heavy Tile has its own value and its own AP cost, and that lumping the 5 cost for that in with Heavy Strike is like completely disregarding the Tile itself and any value it may or may not have. It's the same thing I always was troubled about with the 4Hor thing - her Blue into Red combo isn't X AP for Y damage, it's X AP for Y Damage, a significant stun and charged tile production. If you break it down into X for Y when it's not, you disregard a lot of value that's not simply mathematical value.
      Some math probably needs to be done on blue, I guess you would average 2 or 3 Vision attacks per cast of blue making it around 439 AP r but its extremely conditional. You also need to build a team around him to ensure he's tanking his colors to exploit this. In most situations he's only tanking red and blue as you'd want to bring a better yellow user around so getting 2 attacks per blue cast may be difficult.

      Now This is more in line with what I'm talking about.
      Lerysh wrote:
      That's true, but that's also like saying Masterstroke for Mystique does 7800 damage for 11 AP. It doesn't, you need 19, because you have to Shapeshift first.

      For 10 AP you get 2710 damage and some random tile destruction. For 15 AP you get 2259+723 AoE damage and a 4 turn CD that affects his match damage.

      The CD does have it's own effect, but it's primary effect is to change the function of his redflag.png

      Key difference is in Masterstroke destroying the Shapeshift Tile whereas Heavy Strike does not.
    • The annoying part of all this is that while his numbers are pretty universally ****, they won't be when he's boosted, and since his abilities interact with each other, they will make for some pretty impressive damage. So I think he's pretty ****, but I'm still going to level him to about 119.
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