**** Iron Man (Hulkbuster) ****
Comments
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daibar wrote:Consolidating info so far:
[anchor=wolverine4]Iron Man (Hulk Buster)[/anchor]
4 Star Rarity (Legendary) Discussion link. Wiki link
At Max Level: HP:17810 Tile damage: ?10/82/64/?10/?10/73/?4.0
Iron Man pours his engery reserves into his next punch, using repulsors in his elbow for extra force. Depletes his teams Red AP, dealing 76 damage for each.
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Level 2. Deals 106 damage per AP
Level 3.
Level 4.
Level 5.
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Level 3:
Level 4: 390 damage per AP
Level 5: 630 damage per AP
Tony recklessly diverts power from his heart's Arc Reactor to give his suit more firepower. Deals 776 damage to Iron Man, but gains 5 Red AP and creates 2 Yellow Strike tiles of strength 64.
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Level 2. 2 strength 92 Strike tiles.
Level 3. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
Level 4. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
Level 5. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
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Level 3: Deals 1541 damage to Iron Man, gaining 6 Red AP, 2X183 strike tiles.
The Hulkbuster suit deploys Hulk countermeasures and powers up shielding, ready for incoming damage. Converts 4 basic Green tiles to Red and creates 1 blue Protect tile of strength 18.
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Level 2. Creates 2 Blue Protect tiles of strength 18.
Level 3.
Level 4.
Level 5.
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Level 3:
Level 4: Converts 5 green tiles and creates 3X45 protect tiles
Level 4: Converts 7 green tiles and creates 3X72 protect tiles
1.5k self damage is next to nothing on someone who has almost 18k health. Black feeds into red either way. You'd only not max red if you're concerned about overkill, but 9X390 = 3510 isn't enough to kill most enemies at the 3* level, so I can't see not maxing red. 5 => 4 red is already at least a 2k damage difference.ShionSinX wrote:Yeah the good part is that amplifies the damage of everything right away including your red ("free" use), but still 1.5k damage to self is not that good. Scape Plan has the balanced way of things, because its a big strike tile that can be countered unlike Overdrive and Sacrifice, but no direct downside. Thats why hulkbuster blue also "generates" red AP but in a much safer (and unreliable) way.
Comparing black 11 AP to blue 9 AP, level 5 to 4, Overdrive generates 2 more AP direct, with + 2X113 (226) on the strikes, while hulk proof converts 2 more red tiles with 3X27 (81) on protect . Unless you're actively battling a green opponent and/or have cyclops/MNMags on your team, I'd take black despite the 4-match cost.
5/5/3 unless there's a huge jump on level 4 blue.
You should be able to get the other cover stats from my video to make a complete page for the first post. Yeah, I agree that blue is too niche of a skill.0 -
Maybe it's just me, but having a 4* whose best use is as a red battery for LCap feels pretty underwhelming to me. I also don't like how the emphasis on black doesn't making using him very sustainable.notamutant wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRUYPVSjZ0A Match 1 - Hulkbuster, Steve Rogers, Iron Fist
One suggestion I would make is don't even bother using PX combos anymore. I'm sure it won't be a thing anymore anyway. Not blaming these videos, but I don't think they helped. Might as well just focus on what will be usable going forward.0 -
daibar wrote:Consolidating info so far:
[anchor=wolverine4]Iron Man (Hulk Buster)[/anchor]
4 Star Rarity (Legendary) Discussion link. Wiki link
At Max Level: HP:17810 Tile damage: 11/82/64/10/11/73/3.5
Iron Man pours his energy reserves into his next punch, using repulsors in his elbow for extra force. Depletes his teams Red AP, dealing 76 damage for each.
-
Level 2. Deals 106 damage per AP
Level 3.
Level 4.
Level 5.
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Level 3: 270 damage per AP
Level 4: 390 damage per AP
Level 5: 630 damage per AP
Tony recklessly diverts power from his heart's Arc Reactor to give his suit more firepower. Deals 776 damage to Iron Man, but gains 5 Red AP and creates 2 Yellow Strike tiles of strength 64.
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Level 2. 2 strength 92 Strike tiles.
Level 3. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
Level 4. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
Level 5. 2 strength ? Strike tiles
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Level 3: Deals 1541 damage to Iron Man, gaining 6 Red AP, 2X183 strike tiles.
The Hulkbuster suit deploys Hulk countermeasures and powers up shielding, ready for incoming damage. Converts 4 basic Green tiles to Red and creates 1 blue Protect tile of strength 18.
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Level 2. Creates 2 Blue Protect tiles of strength 18.
Level 3.
Level 4.
Level 5.
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Level 3: Converts 5 green tiles and creates 3X36 protect tiles
Level 4: Converts 5 green tiles and creates 3X45 protect tiles
Level 4: Converts 7 green tiles and creates 3X72 protect tiles
Level 3 black is where the 6th red AP comes in, presumably. The level 3 base damage will be 183/1.985 = ~92, which is the same as the level 2 damage. The self-damage is also the same at level 3 as it is at level 1.
Based on the article http://marvel.com/news/video_games/2453 ... hulkbuster, Level 5 black generates 9 red AP, and the self damage is still the same.At max level, this ability takes out about 8% of Stark’s health with the released power instantly enabling a Repulsor Punch and pushing out Strike tiles in the process.0 -
I accidentally lost the black lev 4 and 5 on a bad copy paste. Have re-added it.
It's not just the red battery; it's the strike tiles. With Iron Fist's attack tile out, you're automatically getting at least 2 attacks a turn. Add to that both Iron Man's Hulk-Proof and IF's IFoKL tendency to polarize the board, and you're often getting 3 to 4 hits per turn.simonsez wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but having a 4* whose best use is as a red battery for LCap feels pretty underwhelming to me. I also don't like how the emphasis on black doesn't making using him very sustainable.notamutant wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRUYPVSjZ0A Match 1 - Hulkbuster, Steve Rogers, Iron Fist
One suggestion I would make is don't even bother using PX combos anymore. I'm sure it won't be a thing anymore anyway. Not blaming these videos, but I don't think they helped. Might as well just focus on what will be usable going forward.
I'm tempted to troll and post a "When will Overdrive be nerfed" poll. Even if the strike tiles were half the strength they are now, it'd be a good 4* ability.
Teams of 3:
Ironically, Steve's return red acts as a low cost attack, (way better than Gamora's). Considering the already active colors with IF, you're really only looking for a yellow ability.
Hulkbuster + IF + LThor, good as long as you time the use of blue ability not near LThor's yellow. Can also provide a better Green attack if strike tiles are out.
Hulkbuster + IF + Cyclops(5/5/3): The red swarm. You're only using cyclops for his yellow.
Teams of 2:
Besides the IF pairing, who else might be decent with Hulkbuster?
Cyclops(5/5/3): You're only using cyclops for his yellow. gaps in Green, purple coverage
LThor: 2 tanks, covers everything but Purple, but not great synergy. Still will probably kill most teams.
Blade: Red generation helps with blade's passive. Strike generation helps with KYEC. No yellow nor active Green => Perhaps Hulkbuster/LThor/Blade?
Doom?: Blue => Black => Red. Not nearly as good as IF.
MNMags.
IF is still his best partner thus far.0 -
I would add Scarlet Witch, her passive creating a blue tile to match away at will, more blue ap the merrier.0
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Counters:
Possible counters to Hulkbuster + IF: Elektra?
This may be conditional. If the enemy IF uses IFoKL, you can try to grab the black. After Hulkbuster's Overdrive, attempt to use Double Double Cross to steal the strike tiles as well as Shadow Step to counter Hulkbuster's Repulsor Punch. Black is after red, so you should have a turn to throw up your defenses after an overdrive. Further, Hulkbuster's gas grenades will help power your own red. However, it really is a race to black, just like previous XF vs XF games.
In the 3rd battle video, She-Hulk's Settlement and Furious Charge seemed to really hurt Hulkbuster. Ironic that Hulkbuster is designed against the Hulk, but seems vulnerable to She-Hulk. She won't do much on defense though, as she is sure to be one shot by an Overdriven Repulsor Punch.
I guess in that case I'd picture Steve Rogers standing atop a racing Hulkbuster, with it's propulsion rockets full blast as Steve throws his shield into the enemy's face at incredible speed.simonsez wrote:
Yeah, I get that, but that still makes him feel like a support character, which isn't the flavor you'd expect from Hulkbuster.daibar wrote:It's not just the red battery; it's the strike tiles.0 -
A guy who generates a 1000 strike tile is not a support just because other people happen to benefit from it. Escape Plan is not a support ability if it resolves successfully. The game is usually ending very quickly and Overdrive is pretty much stronger in every comparable way.
To just compare to other 4*s, the easiest comparison of Overdrive for another top tier move would likely be Demolition or Sleight of Hand. Both of those abilities do ~10K contingent on some board state that's not awfully hard to meet (we'll ignore the multiple trigger of Demolition since that's probably bugged and not intended to be part of its power). Overdrive would be around 700 strike + ~5000 damage (because IMHB can always Repulsor Punch himself) - 1500 damage to self. It costs 1 more AP but it's on a character with 4K more HP, and the overall damage is likely more but not quite as concentrated as Demolition or Sleight of Hand. Demolition and Sleight of Hand might not hit for full damage but it's just not that hard to get either abilities off successfully. I think Overdrive is a bit too good but there's no clear cut comparison that'd make it always better than Demolition or Sleight of Hand. IMHB's superior health probably would put it over the top most of the time, but sometimes you need a big chunk of damage more than endurance.
Repulsor Punch would probably have to be compared to Escape Plan/Avenger's Assemble (those two are roughly equal because while Avenger's Assemble is quite a bit better, it's got a very significant requirement)/Oldest Trick in the Book/Ballet of Death (not sure what Elektra's best move would be, but I don't think it's Ballet of Death). Repulsor Punch is straight up 630 damage/AP, with the bonus of being able to conditionally deliver a lot of extra damage if you've somewhere around 12-15 AP (not enough to use most abilities twice) but a drawback for the same reason (can easily overkill someone you're trying to get rid of that's already wounded). Ballet of Death is 624 damage/AP if it lasted 4 turns. Oldest Trick in the Book is around 1000 damage/AP so even if the CD only has 50% chance to survive that's still 500 damage/AP plus some side benefit. Both Escape Plan/Avenger's Assemble are way stronger than Repulsor Punch when resolved correctly and significantly weaker than Repuslor Punch when they resolve the wrong way. So again I don't see a clear cut indication that Repulsor Punch is that good, and again after you factor in IMHB has more health than anyone else it might turn out to be good enough to be the most powerful just because he has the health to last but it's not universal.
For Hulk-Proof you don't have a 5/5/5 character like AI does. Converting 5 tiles for 9 blue AP is a pretty weak cascade and protect tiles are still very irrelevent in this game with the exception of the Ultron event, and even if they aren't, 9 blue AP to put up some protect tile isn't exactly very fast. I think it is certainly below the average weakest ability on a 4* though that's usually not a big deal since you're not expecting out of the ability you have only 3 levels in the first place.0 -
What I find interesting is they talk more about Hulkbuster's combinations in 4* land, nothing about 3* chars.
The 4* meta is here, and finally being discussed by Demiurge.0 -
simonsez wrote:
But he doesn't, they're 183, so why do you even say stuff like this?Phantron wrote:A guy who generates a 1000 strike tile is not a support just because other people happen to benefit from it.
My bad for assuming you were able to make an argument where the size of the strike tiles determines whether someone is support or not. His strike tile is 2X354 at 270, which is roughly halfway between 2X183 and 1000, which is only a hypothetical number to demonstrate that the size of the strike tile does change the status of a character's role.0 -
You could always opt him 3/5/5 and turn him into a complete red battery and try to feed a Cyclops or Human Torch. No the AP to dmg ratio isn't there, but it isn't single target either. Say you generated 14 AP. You could hit 1 guy for 8820 and be left with 0 red AP
Or you could say swing into Human Torch and do
3390 + 3390 and still have 2 AP left.
The one thing I love about IMHB right out of the gate. If for some reason he becomes the new...nerf this guy he's too strong. All of his powers are easily tweakable. Shave off 50 dmg here, generate 1 less tile there, decrease strike tile by 20 etc, he wouldn't need a rework so he seems like a guy I will invest in.0 -
To respond to Hulkbuster/IF/LThor weaknesses: It's true that blue hurts green, but if you're running a 5/5/3 Hulkbuster you're not really aiming to fire blue. It's just something that happens incidentally if you get enough AP. You're primarily focused on Purple/Black/Red, with everything else incidental. If you happen to get a purple/black starved board, you can instead focus on the Yellow -> Green LThor progression.
It probably isn't as fast as Hulkbuster/IF/Cyclops though.0 -
daibar wrote:What I find interesting is they talk more about Hulkbuster's combinations in 4* land, nothing about 3* chars.
The 4* meta is here, and finally being discussed by Demiurge.
IMHB is actually the first 4* i really really want and would level. Still a 3* transitioner, but have some floating 4*'s sitting at base levels, one even has 4 covers.. no interest in touching them yet. Loving HB, the graphics, animations, abilities, really the whole package.
Awesome job on an amazing character guys!0 -
Phaserhawk wrote:You could always opt him 3/5/5 and turn him into a complete red battery and try to feed a Cyclops or Human Torch. No the AP to dmg ratio isn't there, but it isn't single target either. Say you generated 14 AP. You could hit 1 guy for 8820 and be left with 0 red AP
Or you could say swing into Human Torch and do
3390 + 3390 and still have 2 AP left.
The one thing I love about IMHB right out of the gate. If for some reason he becomes the new...nerf this guy he's too strong. All of his powers are easily tweakable. Shave off 50 dmg here, generate 1 less tile there, decrease strike tile by 20 etc, he wouldn't need a rework so he seems like a guy I will invest in.
Well 4hor was very easy to tweak too and look what happened
It is a clear 5/5/3 for me. 3/5/5 could be used as a battery but if something happens to the red user in the team then he is 'useless' (a part from those two small strike tiles he can generate). Blue isn t that good, this time they have given us a char with a bast superior version.
Ps: why they had to run enemy of the state now?!?! Why not wait until the ultron event finished
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Just completing it for you.daibar wrote:Consolidating info so far:
[anchor=wolverine4]Iron Man (Hulk Buster)[/anchor]
4 Star Rarity (Legendary) Discussion link. Wiki link
At Max Level: HP:17810 Tile damage: 11/82/64/10/11/73/3.5
Iron Man pours his energy reserves into his next punch, using repulsors in his elbow for extra force. Depletes his teams Red AP, dealing 76 damage for each.
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Level 2. Deals 106 damage for each Red AP.
Level 3. Deals 137 damage for each Red AP.
Level 4. Deals 198 damage for each Red AP.
Level 5. Deals 319 damage for each Red AP.
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Level 3: 270 damage per AP
Level 4: 390 damage per AP
Level 5: 630 damage per AP
Tony recklessly diverts power from his heart's Arc Reactor to give his suit more firepower. Deals 776 damage to Iron Man, but gains 5 Red AP and creates 2 Yellow Strike tiles of strength 64.
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Level 2. 2 strength 92 Strike tiles.
Level 3. Generates 6 Red AP.
Level 4. Generates 7 Red AP and creates Strike tiles of strength 122.
Level 5. Generates 9 Red AP and creates Strike tiles of strength 178.
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Level 3: Deals 1541 damage to Iron Man, gaining 6 Red AP, 2X183 strike tiles.
Level 4: Deals 1541 damage to Iron Man, gaining 7 Red AP, 2X241 strike tiles.
Level 5: Deals 1541 damage to Iron Man, gaining 9 Red AP, 2X354 strike tiles.
The Hulkbuster suit deploys Hulk countermeasures and powers up shielding, ready for incoming damage. Converts 4 basic Green tiles to Red and creates 1 blue Protect tile of strength 18.
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Level 2. Creates 2 Blue Protect tiles of strength 18.
Level 3. Converts 5 basic Green tiles to Red. Creates 2 Blue Protect tiles of strength 18.
Level 4. Creates 3 Blue Protect tiles of strenght 23.
Level 5. Converts 7 basic Green tiles to Red. Creates 3 Blue Protect tiles of strength 36.
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Level 3: Converts 5 green tiles and creates 2X36 protect tiles
Level 4: Converts 5 green tiles and creates 3X45 protect tiles
Level 4: Converts 7 green tiles and creates 3X72 protect tiles
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Like somebody said above, even if he is the next flavor of the month, i think any potential nerfs could be fixed easily with some trimming. Really liking his overall tool kit and will be dumping as much ISO into him as possible. Some other combinations i was thinking with obvious choice of 5/5/3 IMHB...
IMHB/IF/Cage - build Cage back to 5/5/3 - Strong yellow, minimal match damage because of better protect tile
IMHB/IF/Groot - build Groot 3/5/5 - Groot tanks yellow, Good damage on Green + strong strike tiles if you can get blue to resolve0 -
That'd be a great retort if I'd said, "Any character who produces strike tiles, regardless of how absurdly large they are, is a support character".Phantron wrote:My bad for assuming you were able to make an argument where the size of the strike tiles determines whether someone is support or not.
Any comment I'm making is specific to IMHB's abilities. What I'm saying is, if they give him a nuke, and no one uses it, that makes him feel like a support character.
My bad for assuming that you would EVER be able to take anyone's comment at face value, and not respond to a hyperbolic extrapolation of that comment.0 -
The way I look at it for his black and blue is this.
Black--guarenteed red but you take damage but get some kick **** strike tiles
Blue--cascade potential, cheaper, will generate more "other colors", but assuming you fire this off at random, you will average 3 red AP and 2 random AP, does combo with PX
So there you have it. Using blue as a PX combo could pay off the higher dividends, but IMHB by himself, I think 5 black is the smarter way to go.
But if you could start the game with 11 black, you could fire off red for 6378 dmg.
I'll say this. He may be a HulkBuster, but She-Hulk will smoke him. she can drain him, steal the strike tiles and beef them up, very interesting0 -
Phaserhawk wrote:The way I look at it for his black and blue is this.
Black--guarenteed red but you take damage but get some kick **** strike tiles
Blue--cascade potential, cheaper, will generate more "other colors", but assuming you fire this off at random, you will average 3 red AP and 2 random AP, does combo with PX
So there you have it. Using blue as a PX combo could pay off the higher dividends, but IMHB by himself, I think 5 black is the smarter way to go.
But if you could start the game with 11 black, you could fire off red for 6378 dmg.
I'll say this. He may be a HulkBuster, but She-Hulk will smoke him. she can drain him, steal the strike tiles and beef them up, very interesting
Also King PIn is a very strong counter to Hulkbuster as he can constantly drain his red.0
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