Lets all be nice to each other.

GuntherBlobel

Sir Daktor wrote:

Ok, I don't post here much but this made me think how deceiving the devs are.

They are getting private messages saying how great everything is and how their terrible business plan is working out? Of course they are, maybe it's just coincidence that we can't see these messages. More made up **** to justify them being greedy and destroying a decent game

I'll gladly stand up and say that I sent one of those PMs. I just wanted to say "thank you," but the timing was off, since the Forum was not a happy place at that time. It was a few weeks ago, right after the 4* Thor nerf. It's the one and only time I've ever PM'ed a Dev for any reason.

Despite the anger on the Forum, I was actually very happy with a lot of the improvements that had been made over the last year (not related to the Thor nerf). I also thought it was very good of the Devs to address the character changes in the Q & A video. They don't need to do that and I doubt many game designers would put themselves out like that. Here is my PM, word for word:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

Thank you for discussing the changes
Sent: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:30 pm
by GuntherBlobel

Normally, I would post a message like this in S & F, but it would just be flame-bait at the moment.

Thank you for the game! I enjoy it greatly. The new features introduced this year have been the best since the game's start.

Thank you for communicating your thought in the video and in the video thread, especially at a difficult time when the loudest voices are sure to be the most negative.

I understand that you can't tell us everything that's on your mind and everything that's exciting to come, but I do appreciate that you try to do your best despite the constraints.

Keep on doing what you do!

I didn't know others had done the same after the X-Force nerf, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm not afraid of being down-voted. I honestly don't take it personally and I don't consider it harassment. But I didn't want to publicly say "thank you" when it would just incite additional anger. Also, I was trying not to add insult to injury to others (those who spent real money on Thor) in an attempt to say something positive. However, I knew that if I had written the above as a Forum post, it would have been received poorly at the time. So what would have been the point?

If you have read my posts, you know that I'm generally happy with the game. But, now and then, I throw down criticism too. At the moment, I'm not being shy about disliking Quicksilver for being the most half-baked release to date, IMO. I'm trying to be constructive, though, and suggest ways to improve him. I'm also discussing higher-level problems with the direction of the game that I gathered from Quicksilver's problematic release. I might crack a joke about how bad Quicksilver is, but I will not purposely insult the people who make this game, just because I am disappointed with something. I'm sure the Devs can handle that kind of criticism as well as the occasional rib.

By not publicly saying "thank you," I indirectly helped the Forum become a more negative place. I realize that now. There's a balance to be found that I'm still working out for myself, because I want the Forum to be a fun and interesting place.

So there it is: conspiracy theory debunked. Does that change your view any?

simonsez

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So there it is: conspiracy theory debunked. Does that change your view any?

Of course not. We know the board has it's share of Pollyannas. No one doubts the devs got some PMs lauding the recent changes. The skepticism regards the implication that this somehow signifies that the overall attitude towards the changes is anywhere close to balanced.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So there it is: conspiracy theory debunked. Does that change your view any?

Of course not. We know the board has it's share of Pollyannas. No one doubts the devs got some PMs lauding the recent changes. The skepticism regards the implication that this somehow signifies that the overall attitude towards the changes is anywhere close to balanced.

The point of this thread isn't to show that the opposing viewpoints are balanced. Its to ask that the forums be a place where both viewpoints (or any others that fall elsewhere on the spectrum) be able to be expressed publicly without the fear of being jumped for having a different viewpoint than someone else.

simonsez

Alexraven wrote:

The point of this thread isn't to show that the opposing viewpoints are balanced.

I was responding specifically to GB's statement.

GuntherBlobel

simonsez wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So there it is: conspiracy theory debunked. Does that change your view any?

Of course not. We know the board has it's share of Pollyannas. No one doubts the devs got some PMs lauding the recent changes. The skepticism regards the implication that this somehow signifies that the overall attitude towards the changes is anywhere close to balanced.

The person I quoted absolutely doubted that anyone PM'ed a Dev instead of posting their view on the Forum, explicitly calling the Devs liars. If it weren't for that unbelievable claim, I wouldn't have bothered posting what I did.

I'm not claiming that there is a quantitative balance in viewpoints. I am confirming from personal experience that positive viewpoints are suppressed during times of Forum outrage. Lystrata has a comment very similar to mine earlier in the thread. He/she said it better than I could have.

snlf25

Alexraven wrote:

simonsez wrote:

GuntherBlobel wrote:

So there it is: conspiracy theory debunked. Does that change your view any?

Of course not. We know the board has it's share of Pollyannas. No one doubts the devs got some PMs lauding the recent changes. The skepticism regards the implication that this somehow signifies that the overall attitude towards the changes is anywhere close to balanced.

The point of this thread isn't to show that the opposing viewpoints are balanced. Its to ask that the forums be a place where both viewpoints (or any others that fall elsewhere on the spectrum) be able to be expressed publicly without the fear of being jumped for having a different viewpoint than someone else.

Yeah, that goes both ways. You obviously haven't read the posts directed towards me because I support the right of people to ask for and receive refunds from apple and google so long as they don't lie about the circumstances. LOL, one guy even accused me of piracy!

Raffoon

Kudos to you Gunther for continuing to try and offer constructive criticism. I used to do that. I've even made threads thanking the devs myself as well, back in the day.

The thing is, after a while the mistakes from the devs stop being a one-off thing and you begin to see a pattern. Personally, I've reached the end of my patience. We offer solutions, we offer feedback, they say that they're listening, and then they go and bollocks everything up.

Someone dug up a quote from either the developers or the president of the company the other day. They had said that they tried to follow the Blizzard philosophy of making everyone feel a bit OP. It looks like they've strayed FAAAAARRRR from that path at this point.

There were reasonable changes that could have been made. Small balances to Thor and Xforce, coupled with small to moderate buffs to the other 4* characters, buffs to underused 3*s, and maybe even keeping these new health changes as well would have promoted diversity without completely invalidating the previous time/money/effort commitments of the players.

Instead, they gut the top tier in an effort to make everyone buy new covers to replace them. This just keeps happening. They nerf characters into oblivion when they could simply balance them instead. Well, this time they nerfed characters where each cover costs the equivalent of 12 dollars, and people have finally had enough of this stupidity.

So, I'll say it again. We offer feedback and suggestions, they say they're listening, then they essentially spit in our faces by doing things that the majority of players hate for the thinly veiled purpose of causing people the spend money on respecs and new characters.

I'll keep playing and tying up their bandwidth, but I sure as hell will not ever be spending another penny on this game, and I'll advise anyone else that will listen not to as well.

Kelbris

mageofshadow wrote:

...but are too afraid to post on the forums for fear of getting flamed.

What?

I'm sorry, what? Adults can't handle someone speaking negatively at them over the internet? Jesus **** Christ, is this **** middle school? "Tina didn't like my art project!" Who **** cares if you get flamed? Brush it off. It's not like a bunch of text on a screen can do anything. Go spend time with the people in your life that actually matter and stop caring about what a bunch of random nobodies on the internet think of you. It's not like MPQ User #6737 is going to help you move.

More transparency would help a lot. The biggest source of hate here is players being left in the dark. The devs (at least when I played) are really good at answering a question without actually saying anything, and when they DO answer a question, it's usually a softball question that doesn't really show any of their intents.

A lot of the devs act like politicians. It's pretty frustrating. It's been said that they put weeks of discussion into game-changing decisions. Is it really that unreasonable to think that they should be able to back up the decision in a public discussion?

Keep in mind that this is the **** internet and you can spend DAYS thinking up a response to something somebody said. Really shouldn't be that hard to address simple questions before a mob mentality forms.

By not addressing concerns, it makes people think they can't. That's where the accusations of greed and negligence come into play, where devs are accused of having "no idea" what they're doing.

Unknown

Kelbris wrote:

mageofshadow wrote:

...but are too afraid to post on the forums for fear of getting flamed.

What?

I'm sorry, what? Adults can't handle someone speaking negatively at them over the internet? Jesus tinykitty Christ, is this tinykitty middle school? "Tina didn't like my art project!" Who tinykitty cares if you get flamed? Brush it off. It's not like a bunch of text on a screen can do anything. Go spend time with the people in your life that actually matter and stop caring about what a bunch of random nobodies on the internet think of you. It's not like MPQ User #6737 is going to help you move.

More transparency would help a lot. The biggest source of hate here is players being left in the dark. The devs (at least when I played) are really good at answering a question without actually saying anything, and when they DO answer a question, it's usually a softball question that doesn't really show any of their intents.

A lot of the devs act like politicians. It's pretty frustrating. It's been said that they put weeks of discussion into game-changing decisions. Is it really that unreasonable to think that they should be able to back up the decision in a public discussion?

Keep in mind that this is the tinykitty internet and you can spend DAYS thinking up a response to something somebody said. Really shouldn't be that hard to address simple questions before a mob mentality forms.

By not addressing concerns, it makes people think they can't. That's where the accusations of greed and negligence come into play, where devs are accused of having "no idea" what they're doing.

talk is cheap, my ignore list is full of people who are supposedly adults but can't seem to ignore me and move on but instead downvote me at every turn and invade my posts

Kelbris

raisinbman wrote:

Kelbris wrote:

mageofshadow wrote:

...but are too afraid to post on the forums for fear of getting flamed.

What?

I'm sorry, what? Adults can't handle someone speaking negatively at them over the internet? Jesus tinykitty Christ, is this tinykitty middle school? "Tina didn't like my art project!" Who tinykitty cares if you get flamed? Brush it off. It's not like a bunch of text on a screen can do anything. Go spend time with the people in your life that actually matter and stop caring about what a bunch of random nobodies on the internet think of you. It's not like MPQ User #6737 is going to help you move.

More transparency would help a lot. The biggest source of hate here is players being left in the dark. The devs (at least when I played) are really good at answering a question without actually saying anything, and when they DO answer a question, it's usually a softball question that doesn't really show any of their intents.

A lot of the devs act like politicians. It's pretty frustrating. It's been said that they put weeks of discussion into game-changing decisions. Is it really that unreasonable to think that they should be able to back up the decision in a public discussion?

Keep in mind that this is the tinykitty internet and you can spend DAYS thinking up a response to something somebody said. Really shouldn't be that hard to address simple questions before a mob mentality forms.

By not addressing concerns, it makes people think they can't. That's where the accusations of greed and negligence come into play, where devs are accused of having "no idea" what they're doing.

talk is cheap, my ignore list is full of people who are supposedly adults but can't seem to ignore me and move on but instead downvote me at every turn and invade my posts

And this bothers you why? Who cares what they do? Just means you have a fan club.

Tbh I have no idea who you are but your signature is a work of art.

GothicKratos

snlf25 wrote:

Yeah, that goes both ways. You obviously haven't read the posts directed towards me because I support the right of people to ask for and receive refunds from apple and google so long as they don't lie about the circumstances. LOL, one guy even accused me of piracy!

That was me, and I didn't accuse you of piracy, I used it as an example in the argument (that in the case of deceit in a refund claim, it is fraud and theft). You should probably re-read the post.

Unknown

Kelbris wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

Kelbris wrote:

mageofshadow wrote:

...but are too afraid to post on the forums for fear of getting flamed.

What?

I'm sorry, what? Adults can't handle someone speaking negatively at them over the internet? Jesus tinykitty Christ, is this tinykitty middle school? "Tina didn't like my art project!" Who tinykitty cares if you get flamed? Brush it off. It's not like a bunch of text on a screen can do anything. Go spend time with the people in your life that actually matter and stop caring about what a bunch of random nobodies on the internet think of you. It's not like MPQ User #6737 is going to help you move.

More transparency would help a lot. The biggest source of hate here is players being left in the dark. The devs (at least when I played) are really good at answering a question without actually saying anything, and when they DO answer a question, it's usually a softball question that doesn't really show any of their intents.

A lot of the devs act like politicians. It's pretty frustrating. It's been said that they put weeks of discussion into game-changing decisions. Is it really that unreasonable to think that they should be able to back up the decision in a public discussion?

Keep in mind that this is the tinykitty internet and you can spend DAYS thinking up a response to something somebody said. Really shouldn't be that hard to address simple questions before a mob mentality forms.

By not addressing concerns, it makes people think they can't. That's where the accusations of greed and negligence come into play, where devs are accused of having "no idea" what they're doing.

talk is cheap, my ignore list is full of people who are supposedly adults but can't seem to ignore me and move on but instead downvote me at every turn and invade my posts

And this bothers you why? Who cares what they do? Just means you have a fan club.

Tbh I have no idea who you are but your signature is a work of art.

If you don't understand why constant harassment would bother someone u prob don't have to experience it on the day to day. It gets tiring standing up for yourself. Really tiring.

And no, it doesn't bother me, but when the topics devolve from the actual topic to 'lol screw this guy' it makes it very hard to get anything done.

You can't possibly be talking about my sig so I'll assume its the better call saul person lol

Kelbris

If you don't understand why constant harassment would bother someone u prob don't have to experience it on the day to day.

I referee soccer games on the weekend for some extra pocket money; can't exactly say no to $50 for an hour of telling kids not to kick each other. I regularly have at least 5 adults (out of ~30) telling me i did something incorrectly every 5 minutes, and some of them screaming such.

When I first started out, I was 21 and hadn't really experienced something like that in person. Now, not only does it not bother me in the slightest, I realize that I have enough experience at my job that these people can't do what I do and generally don't know what they're talking about, so I find it hilarious. The best part is that they get FURIOUS when my response to their venom is a big grin and a chuckle. It's great!

raisinbman wrote:

It gets tiring standing up for yourself. Really tiring.

And yet you have zero obligation to respond to egregious negativity, just like the developers of this game. But at the same time, you shouldn't be afraid of it. It's just white noise.

If someone intelligently questions something you said and/or did, by all means give them a response, but there's a difference between "I don't think what you're saying is correct" and "hey you dumb **** douchedick let me know when you have an opinion worth listening to before your posts give me cancer LOL"

If someone can't respond to you without getting angry, you shouldn't be upset. Feel bad that they have such an elementary handle of their emotions that they can't conduct themselves in a place where you can read your ENTIRE DAMN MESSAGE before posting it. There's even a preview button!

Unknown

Kelbris wrote:

If you don't understand why constant harassment would bother someone u prob don't have to experience it on the day to day.

I referee soccer games on the weekend for some extra pocket money; can't exactly say no to $50 for an hour of telling kids not to kick each other. I regularly have at least 5 adults (out of ~30) telling me i did something incorrectly every 5 minutes, and some of them screaming such.

When I first started out, I was 21 and hadn't really experienced something like that in person. Now, not only does it not bother me in the slightest, I realize that I have enough experience at my job that these people can't do what I do and generally don't know what they're talking about, so I find it hilarious. The best part is that they get FURIOUS when my response to their venom is a big grin and a chuckle. It's great!

raisinbman wrote:

It gets tiring standing up for yourself. Really tiring.

And yet you have zero obligation to respond to egregious negativity, just like the developers of this game. But at the same time, you shouldn't be afraid of it. It's just white noise.

If someone intelligently questions something you said and/or did, by all means give them a response, but there's a difference between "I don't think what you're saying is correct" and "hey you dumb tinykitty douchedick let me know when you have an opinion worth listening to before your posts give me cancer LOL"

If someone can't respond to you without getting angry, you shouldn't be upset. Feel bad that they have such an elementary handle of their emotions that they can't conduct themselves in a place where you can read your ENTIRE DAMN MESSAGE before posting it. There's even a preview button!

Interesting, I used to ref soccer games from 13 until the end of my teens. After awhile, I realized that directly reffing wasn't worth the effort and abuse and stuck to being a linesman where pay was a little less, but more worth it.

I wanted to post that I thought the health changes are overall a good idea and well implemented (Gasp), but couldn't find anywhere that wasn't an echo chamber of people bashing it just because matches were slightly longer. What's the point of posting just to show minor support for an idea if it will just end up being flamebait? It doesn't bring anything new to the table, but lets the martyrs find a target for their negativity. Sometimes you don't have time for arguments, particularly condescending ones that don't even relate to the subject or are filled with straw men.

At other times like arondite on raisinbman, there is some valid criticism but it is couched in unnecessarily harsh language which makes it hard to separate the relevant parts between the personal attacks. Also, some people definitely make themselves targets.

$50 an hour? You must have some abusive parents, or the game has changed in a few decades. I feel old now.

GuntherBlobel

Raffoon wrote:

Kudos to you Gunther for continuing to try and offer constructive criticism. I used to do that. I've even made threads thanking the devs myself as well, back in the day.

The thing is, after a while the mistakes from the devs stop being a one-off thing and you begin to see a pattern. Personally, I've reached the end of my patience. We offer solutions, we offer feedback, they say that they're listening, and then they go and bollocks everything up.

Hey, I get that, I really do. When Nonce was posting good idea after another and nothing happened I could see and feel the frustration there. But, you know, the Devs did eventually address some of those issues. It just took a very long time.

Like a lot of people, I pleaded in S&F for 8 hr. PvE refreshes and now we have them. It seemed so simple to change, right? Why did it take so long?

I don't know, but it just does.

Unknown

daibar wrote:

Kelbris wrote:

If you don't understand why constant harassment would bother someone u prob don't have to experience it on the day to day.

I referee soccer games on the weekend for some extra pocket money; can't exactly say no to $50 for an hour of telling kids not to kick each other. I regularly have at least 5 adults (out of ~30) telling me i did something incorrectly every 5 minutes, and some of them screaming such.

When I first started out, I was 21 and hadn't really experienced something like that in person. Now, not only does it not bother me in the slightest, I realize that I have enough experience at my job that these people can't do what I do and generally don't know what they're talking about, so I find it hilarious. The best part is that they get FURIOUS when my response to their venom is a big grin and a chuckle. It's great!

raisinbman wrote:

It gets tiring standing up for yourself. Really tiring.

And yet you have zero obligation to respond to egregious negativity, just like the developers of this game. But at the same time, you shouldn't be afraid of it. It's just white noise.

If someone intelligently questions something you said and/or did, by all means give them a response, but there's a difference between "I don't think what you're saying is correct" and "hey you dumb tinykitty douchedick let me know when you have an opinion worth listening to before your posts give me cancer LOL"

If someone can't respond to you without getting angry, you shouldn't be upset. Feel bad that they have such an elementary handle of their emotions that they can't conduct themselves in a place where you can read your ENTIRE DAMN MESSAGE before posting it. There's even a preview button!

Interesting, I used to ref soccer games from 13 until the end of my teens. After awhile, I realized that directly reffing wasn't worth the effort and abuse and stuck to being a linesman where pay was a little less, but more worth it.

I wanted to post that I thought the health changes are overall a good idea and well implemented (Gasp), but couldn't find anywhere that wasn't an echo chamber of people bashing it just because matches were slightly longer. What's the point of posting just to show minor support for an idea if it will just end up being flamebait? It doesn't bring anything new to the table, but lets the martyrs find a target for their negativity. Sometimes you don't have time for arguments, particularly condescending ones that don't even relate to the subject or are filled with straw men.

At other times like arondite on raisinbman, there is some valid criticism but it is couched in unnecessarily harsh language which makes it hard to separate the relevant parts between the personal attacks. Also, some people definitely make themselves targets.

$50 an hour? You must have some abusive parents, or the game has changed in a few decades. I feel old now.

exactly ppl are rude for no reason. You wanna talk shop we can talk shop, no need to try and belittle me

Unknown

It is this post that finally prompted me to stop lurking and make a forum account. Up to now, I had no desire to wade into the muck, mud and toxicity that I perceived these forums to be. It's good to see the mods attempting to take a stance.

Hulk11

awaiko wrote:

It is this post that finally prompted me to stop lurking and make a forum account. Up to now, I had no desire to wade into the muck, mud and toxicity that I perceived these forums to be. It's good to see the mods attempting to take a stance.

You'll regret it unless, you're a data miner. . Pickaxe included.

DukeUpdate

awaiko wrote:

It is this post that finally prompted me to stop lurking and make a forum account. Up to now, I had no desire to wade into the muck, mud and toxicity that I perceived these forums to be. It's good to see the mods attempting to take a stance.

Same with me. I suspect I'll regret posting this when I get flamed for not understanding the struggle against the evil devs/mods.

I've played 3 other Massively Multi Player social games. On all of them I played for a while and quit at some point (usually 6 mo - 2 years). I just got bored with them. Sometimes it was because the developers stopped innovating, but usually it was because the games were most fun at the early/middle levels. It is nearly impossible to design a game that is fun at the beginning that is still equally fun at the top of the game years later.

I've got a nearly maxed out base on Clash of Clans that I never look at because nothing ever changes. Even if it hurt my base, I'd love it if the devs changed the mechanics because the differences would make the game interesting again.

I've enjoyed this game so far (I'm on day 105 of the Shield Re-supply), I've spent some cash on it, and I expect to continue to enjoy it, but I don't see myself ever getting so worked up that I spew vitriol or demand compensation for various things.

I suspect that the vast majority of the players play the game for idle fun, but that many of the most vocal posters only find the game fun if they are among the best in the world.

Hopefully the angry few won't scare away the silent/content masses.

GuntherBlobel

So, I'm trying something new that maybe other people will want to do as well.

I understand that some people find down-votes to be mean or even harassment, which I guess they can be, but I'm not going to stop down-voting bad posts because some people are sensitive to them. They are very useful, because they let me rank the merit of a post without derailing a thread with a reply. So for now on, I'm going to make sure that each down-vote has an explanation, like, "I get your point, but you don't need to call other people names to make your point."

Even when I up-vote, I think I'll try to say something like, "Nice post, but I don't agree", "lol", or even simply "I agree, good point", because there are lots of reasons that I want to encourage people to post more. I don't want to up-votes to make this place an echo-chamber. I'll up-vote as long as something contributes to the conversation or provides a good laugh.