Lets all be nice to each other.

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  • Ben Grimm wrote:
    PUT TINYKITTY IRON FIST IN THE TINYKITTY DDQ.

    This. and the RNG cover thing, too.
  • camichan wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    PUT TINYKITTY IRON FIST IN THE TINYKITTY DDQ.

    This. and the RNG cover thing, too.

    is that was this thread is now? WE NEED MORE ISO FOR ALL OUR DEADPOOL DDQ PROGRESS! FIX SPIDERMAN! WHY DID YOU RELEASE FAILSILVER? IS PVP FIXED YET? STOP RELEASING SO MANY 4* CHARACTERS! DONT DO 3 NEW CHARACTERS IN A ROW AGAIN!
  • Ughhh, yet another patch and they still haven't fixed the party banter bug! And more nerfs to multiplayer classes?!? DAMN YOU BIOWARE!!!

    Oops, wrong company, wrong forum. icon_razz.gif
  • DAMN YOU BIOWARE!!! icon_razz.gif
    You seem to have misspelled Bungie. icon_razz.gif
  • Hulk11
    Hulk11 Posts: 435
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    2 months later and I come back to this type of thread, all is not well in D3 land. icon_mrgreen.gif

    lGoAwTC.jpg
  • evil panda
    evil panda Posts: 419 Mover and Shaker
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    I like all you guys.

    Unless you hit me in PVP

    Don't tinykitty hit me in PVP icon_mad.gif

    I'm kidding. Mostly. icon_twisted.gif
  • snlf25
    snlf25 Posts: 947 Critical Contributor
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    What's your in game name? So I know not to hit you in PvP. icon_twisted.gif
  • MarvelDestiny
    MarvelDestiny Posts: 198 Tile Toppler
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    That we only have the ability to sell a changed character for a tiny fraction of the invested resources plays a huge part in the player response. For whatever reason, it's a design decision on the part of the developers to leave players pretty much up a creek after a nerf, and it's not one that I can ever recall them explaining.

    Bam! That's the 10 ring.

    Changes I can understand. The devs have a responsibility to the meta game to keep it balanced, playable, and fun. I may not agree with all the changes but the overall theme seems to be balance. Nerfing OP characters, discussions of 'power bands', buffing under-powered ones, wacky mmr/scaling, etc... all point to efforts to find the MPQ-meta sweet spot.

    Unfortunately the bean counters are stingy when the nerf bat comes 'round. This leaves everyone affected angry and with good cause. FULL refunds of HP and iso should accompany a character reset to its base level when nerfed. This is the only way to make the changes fair.

    Oh, and to put this in context, I am not affected by the XF nerf -- I only have 2 cvrs. And although I don't like all the changes, I am not hating the destination. Keep looking for the sweet spot guys! icon_e_smile.gif

    PS - Thanks for getting involved mageofshadow, it's a nice change of pace. icon_e_smile.gif
  • Lystrata
    Lystrata Posts: 322 Mover and Shaker
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    +1. This thread.

    I can't say I've felt I should only message the devs privately with my approval of the changes (and for the most part, I do approve), but I've also had no inclination to come out in public supporting them. This isn't actually out of 'fear' of being flamed - the day I give strangers behind computer screens that much power over me is the day I resign from the internet - but still. It actually doesn't feel worth the time to post anything positive lately.

    When you can accurately predict the flame responses to any positive comment you make, there's not much incentive to make 'em. If people responded with debate, or at least an attempt to see differing viewpoints and discuss them, I'd be more inclined to post. So for anyone under the impression that people privately contacting the devs are cowards, or suck ups, or so on... maybe they're just out of patience with the spitefulness of this forum lately? icon_e_wink.gif
    I know I am.

    But hey. Maybe I'll make it my goal to add a tiny ray o' sunshine every week - be the change you want to see, and all that rot. icon_lol.gif


    TL;DR: Have a healthpack.png and start healin' some wounds. icon_e_smile.gif
  • I don't get to see the PMs you receive but, TBH, I don't really see the thing you are getting at.

    I see a lot of ppl arguing with each other but in all the cases I can think of it was a 2 sided argument rather than someone getting picked on.

    I have seen a few ppl getting downvoted for asking questions (not a big fan of that personally but i'm also not the king of reasons to downvote) but i've also seen their questions being answered. I get the impression that my "not caring at all about downvotes" outlook is in the minority though, other ppl seem to take them a lot more personally.

    I'll say this though to try and justify what i'm saying.... I posted a thread saying the nerf to Xforce's green essentially wasn't as terrible as ppl thought. I did say I thought it went a bit too far, but was essentially expressing an unpopular opinion. I did, on the other hand, do my best to justify what I said and explain my reasoning (the board shake is pretty damn good and shatter dmg is unchanged. Just a shame they knocked 2k off not 1k). Some ppl agreed with me, some disagreed, some said it was an interesting opinion but they would reserve judgement.

    I got 1 downvote....

    I don't think ppl shower posts with downvotes because they disagree with the content and I don't think the forum community is some toxic mess. I think ppl are tetchy with the recent barrage of nerfs and are being less tolerant of "lower quality" posts where someone just jumps on, pops out a 2 line post which could be paraphrased as "I don't agree with you, I see no reason to justify this" and that's it. When ppl in favour of the changes don't throw around insults (calling ppl whiners/ragers/kiddies etc) and try to explain their reasoning I haven't personally noticed anything other than discussion... Maybe I don't read enough posts though.....
  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    bonfire01 wrote:
    I'll say this though to try and justify what i'm saying.... I posted a thread saying the nerf to Xforce's green essentially wasn't as terrible as ppl thought. I did say I thought it went a bit too far, but was essentially expressing an unpopular opinion. I did, on the other hand, do my best to justify what I said and explain my reasoning (the board shake is pretty damn good and shatter dmg is unchanged. Just a shame they knocked 2k off not 1k). Some ppl agreed with me, some disagreed, some said it was an interesting opinion but they would reserve judgement.

    I got 1 downvote....
    Yeah bonfire, but you're also a vet, both in game (retired as you may be), but also on the forums.

    I'm pretty sure if I posted something like that, I wouldn't get any downvotes either, or Northern Polarity, or some other forum vet.

    Saying "I agree with the Xforce nerf" or some other stuff when you're not a well known forum personality and/or not very fluent in English is just an invitation for downvotes.
  • Bowgentle wrote:
    bonfire01 wrote:
    I'll say this though to try and justify what i'm saying.... I posted a thread saying the nerf to Xforce's green essentially wasn't as terrible as ppl thought. I did say I thought it went a bit too far, but was essentially expressing an unpopular opinion. I did, on the other hand, do my best to justify what I said and explain my reasoning (the board shake is pretty damn good and shatter dmg is unchanged. Just a shame they knocked 2k off not 1k). Some ppl agreed with me, some disagreed, some said it was an interesting opinion but they would reserve judgement.

    I got 1 downvote....
    Yeah bonfire, but you're also a vet, both in game (retired as you may be), but also on the forums.

    I'm pretty sure if I posted something like that, I wouldn't get any downvotes either, or Northern Polarity, or some other forum vet.

    Saying "I agree with the Xforce nerf" or some other stuff when you're not a well known forum personality and/or not very fluent in English is just an invitation for downvotes.

    Is that a thing? I'm not saying it's not.... i'm just wondering if it really is....

    I'll downvote (what I consider to be) bad posts from anyone and ditto with good posts and upvotes. I also have never released a guide like NP (or MM) so I don't know if I count as a personality. I also don't think the risk of my in game roster retaliating in the forum holds much weight icon_e_smile.gif.

    I honestly think it's the content rather then the poster that impacts ppl's reactions BUT I could also be totally wrong. the only way me being a "vet" matters (or at least the only way I can think of it mattering) is I know a bit more about the game to help me make posts that make sense. A lot of the posts I see downvoted start off with insults, then opinions stated as facts then normally a condescending conclusion (pick one or more of the above as necessary). I even see differences in the reactions to individual posters, either longstanding or new depending on what they write even if all their posts express a similarly pro-dev type opinion.

    I could give names and example of such ppl and their posts where 2 posts have a very similar message but one gets downvoted and another doesn't but picking out ppl is probably a bad plan (cause they'll probably see it as an attack).

    Well, all in all I would like a forum with no insults and more discussion. My only issue with the OP is the implication it's an issue of angry vets picking on newbies and ppl with complaints about the changes picking on ppl who are in favour. Just look at that abomination of a thread where pro-dev type posters are accusing ppl who seek refunds of fraud (completely incorrectly) repeatedly for a shining example of how that's not the case. It's just as bad (worse actually) IMO than ppl shouting at poster who like the changes. At least no silly claims about crimes take place (most of the time).
  • That we only have the ability to sell a changed character for a tiny fraction of the invested resources plays a huge part in the player response. For whatever reason, it's a design decision on the part of the developers to leave players pretty much up a creek after a nerf, and it's not one that I can ever recall them explaining.

    Bam! That's the 10 ring.

    Changes I can understand. The devs have a responsibility to the meta game to keep it balanced, playable, and fun. I may not agree with all the changes but the overall theme seems to be balance. Nerfing OP characters, discussions of 'power bands', buffing under-powered ones, wacky mmr/scaling, etc... all point to efforts to find the MPQ-meta sweet spot.

    Unfortunately the bean counters are stingy when the nerf bat comes 'round. This leaves everyone affected angry and with good cause. FULL refunds of HP and iso should accompany a character reset to its base level when nerfed. This is the only way to make the changes fair.

    Oh, and to put this in context, I am not affected by the XF nerf -- I only have 2 cvrs. And although I don't like all the changes, I am not hating the destination. Keep looking for the sweet spot guys! icon_e_smile.gif

    PS - Thanks for getting involved mageofshadow, it's a nice change of pace. icon_e_smile.gif

    I think even if they allowed folks to respec their changed characters that would be a start in the right direction. It's hard to get a "full refund" out of some companies.

    Especially if nerfs and buffs are becoming more prevalent, they need to respond to this type of thing appropriately.

    If they were to fix all the balance issues instead of releasing new characters like I've said, this wouldn't be as much of an issue. This would also prevent characters like Bagsilver from being released causing less rage overall.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    Some people are just vitriolic, period


    But some people are put in a bad situation, one that makes them feel cheated, but they get told there is nothing they can do, look at this EULA you clicked on, says we can do whatever we want and we can change it anytime too.

    Feeling cheated out of money and time investment, then being told there is no recourse makes people upset. There is a way of doing something you are allowed to do because of the EULA, doing it because you feel it will improve the game and being respectful to your customers, offering full ISO and HP buybacks.

    Kicking the hornet's nest and complaining they are swarming is pretty pathetic in my opinion.
  • I have a lot to say about the changes made to these characters, but I'm not going to say any of them because there are people on this board who can't tell the difference between disagreement and cyber-bullying.

    Even moderate disagreement right now can get you downvoted, so I'm not going to bother. Rant and rave all you want. I know which of my characters are still good, which ones have gotten better, and which ones I'm excited to level up and try out. I know some characters no longer work exactly as they used to, but maybe that's not entirely a bad thing for the game.

    Or maybe not. Maybe the whole game is ruined and we should all stop playing right now. Or maybe we should trust the people who do all the math on this game and stop acting so butthurt.

    Thanks for the example!

    So start by implying your opinion has increased intrinsic value which the plebians on the forum couldn't cope with like adults... you are all cyber bullies after all who can't recognise civilised debate.

    Suggest everyone is just ranting ad raving... not having valid opinions.

    State some opinions like facts... you KNOW which heroes are good (citation required) you KNOW which ones are better (citation required) etc etc

    AND finally..... finish up with a concluding sentence that tells everyone what they SHOULD be doing (no justification) and a parting insult (you're all butthurt, not ppl with opinions meriting discussion).

    So then.... if I downvote this post because I see no value to it and consider it little more than flamebait (collection of insults/digs of no value and no attempt at justified points which I can only assume has been posted to have a dig at ppl and provoke a negative response) then am I making a reasonable judgement of this post and giving it a thumbs down for specific reasons or am I bullying some poor person so they don't feel they can post (even though they obviously do)?
  • snlf25
    snlf25 Posts: 947 Critical Contributor
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    It's hard to trust them and to trust that they know what they are doing when they communicate the way they do and when almost every change is drastic, seemingly punitive and negative. It is very easy to imagine them as fiddling Neros though. icon_e_biggrin.gif
  • bonfire01 wrote:
    I have a lot to say about the changes made to these characters, but I'm not going to say any of them because there are people on this board who can't tell the difference between disagreement and cyber-bullying.

    Even moderate disagreement right now can get you downvoted, so I'm not going to bother. Rant and rave all you want. I know which of my characters are still good, which ones have gotten better, and which ones I'm excited to level up and try out. I know some characters no longer work exactly as they used to, but maybe that's not entirely a bad thing for the game.

    Or maybe not. Maybe the whole game is ruined and we should all stop playing right now. Or maybe we should trust the people who do all the math on this game and stop acting so butthurt.

    Thanks for the example!

    So start by implying your opinion has increased intrinsic value which the plebians on the forum couldn't cope with like adults... you are all cyber bullies after all who can't recognise civilised debate.

    Suggest everyone is just ranting ad raving... not having valid opinions.

    State some opinions like facts... you KNOW which heroes are good (citation required) you KNOW which ones are better (citation required) etc etc

    AND finally..... finish up with a concluding sentence that tells everyone what they SHOULD be doing (no justification) and a parting insult (you're all butthurt, not ppl with opinions meriting discussion).

    So then.... if I downvote this post because I see no value to it and consider it little more than flamebait (collection of insults/digs of no value and no attempt at justified points which I can only assume has been posted to have a dig at ppl and provoke a negative response) then am I making a reasonable judgement of this post and giving it a thumbs down for specific reasons or am I bullying some poor person so they don't feel they can post (even though they obviously do)?
    Take a deep breath and ask yourself if either of these posts is really the right tone to take in a thread asking people to be just a little bit more civil. Calling anything that happens here "cyber bullying" is a little melodramatic for my tastes, but there is definitely a very aggressive and borderline nasty vibe going around the forum these days. I personally find a lot of the developer/publisher apologists and uppity white knights to be extremely annoying, but just as unpleasant is all of this getting super snarky at the drop of a hat and dressing people down for their opinions, however mediocre and uninformed they may be. It's all become a bit much. We don't need to all hold hands and sing campfire songs, and we probably can't all get along, but the general level of respect and civility around here could stand to improve, and that falls on all of us.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    I have a lot to say about the changes made to these characters, but I'm not going to say any of them because there are people on this board who can't tell the difference between disagreement and cyber-bullying.

    Even moderate disagreement right now can get you downvoted, so I'm not going to bother. Rant and rave all you want. I know which of my characters are still good, which ones have gotten better, and which ones I'm excited to level up and try out. I know some characters no longer work exactly as they used to, but maybe that's not entirely a bad thing for the game.

    Or maybe not. Maybe the whole game is ruined and we should all stop playing right now. Or maybe we should trust the people who do all the math on this game and stop acting so butthurt.

    Is the level we are at now? Clicking the down vote button to say you don't agree (which has been made for just that) is cyber bullying?
    Clicking that button just means you disagree that's all, these buttons are just there so we don't have to suffer through pages and pages of "me too" and "no way" posts.
  • Marc_Spector
    Marc_Spector Posts: 624 Critical Contributor
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    scottee wrote:
    I think there's plenty of good things going on in the game right now, but just haven't had time to post as much lately.

    But I also admit I've been less motivated because of all the negativity. Not because I'm afraid of push back. Fighting trolls with logic is kinda like the MPQ mini-game. But mostly because it's not as fun to be on when much of the first page is filled with the same couple of flame arguments.

    But good job mods. And if the devs are checking this, I think many of the changes have been for the positive.

    The MPQ forums are like women. It doesn't matter how many brownie points you've won for doing positive things; as soon as you make one mistake, you're back at -5.

    I agree 100% with everything you wrote there, other than the needless sexist-generalization at the end -- moreso with it being part of the first reply in a thread about trying to make the forums a better/more welcoming place. 1/3 of my alliance are IRL female friends, and comments like that -- whether intended as a joke or not -- do absolutely nothing to help move beyond the "boy's club" image of gaming/forums/internet-culture in general.

    I say all that with respect and without at all trying to single you out as being "part of that problem", scottee, as you're among the few recognize-by-name regulars on here whom I've always found to be a voice of sound analysis and levelheadedness (particularly in the toxic cesspool that was the character updates thread, and I thank you for that! icon_e_smile.gif )

    I do agree that many of the changes will be beneficial for the long term health of the game. In the past 18+ hours since the character updates, I've seen a wider variety of characters in PVP play than I recall since X-Force became The Best There Is.

    Peace, all,
    ~M
  • cletus1985
    cletus1985 Posts: 276 Mover and Shaker
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    bonfire01 wrote:
    Bowgentle wrote:
    bonfire01 wrote:
    I'll say this though to try and justify what i'm saying.... I posted a thread saying the nerf to Xforce's green essentially wasn't as terrible as ppl thought. I did say I thought it went a bit too far, but was essentially expressing an unpopular opinion. I did, on the other hand, do my best to justify what I said and explain my reasoning (the board shake is pretty damn good and shatter dmg is unchanged. Just a shame they knocked 2k off not 1k). Some ppl agreed with me, some disagreed, some said it was an interesting opinion but they would reserve judgement.

    I got 1 downvote....
    Yeah bonfire, but you're also a vet, both in game (retired as you may be), but also on the forums.

    I'm pretty sure if I posted something like that, I wouldn't get any downvotes either, or Northern Polarity, or some other forum vet.

    Saying "I agree with the Xforce nerf" or some other stuff when you're not a well known forum personality and/or not very fluent in English is just an invitation for downvotes.

    Is that a thing? I'm not saying it's not.... i'm just wondering if it really is....

    I'll downvote (what I consider to be) bad posts from anyone and ditto with good posts and upvotes. I also have never released a guide like NP (or MM) so I don't know if I count as a personality. I also don't think the risk of my in game roster retaliating in the forum holds much weight icon_e_smile.gif.

    I honestly think it's the content rather then the poster that impacts ppl's reactions BUT I could also be totally wrong. the only way me being a "vet" matters (or at least the only way I can think of it mattering) is I know a bit more about the game to help me make posts that make sense. A lot of the posts I see downvoted start off with insults, then opinions stated as facts then normally a condescending conclusion (pick one or more of the above as necessary). I even see differences in the reactions to individual posters, either longstanding or new depending on what they write even if all their posts express a similarly pro-dev type opinion.

    I could give names and example of such ppl and their posts where 2 posts have a very similar message but one gets downvoted and another doesn't but picking out ppl is probably a bad plan (cause they'll probably see it as an attack).

    Well, all in all I would like a forum with no insults and more discussion. My only issue with the OP is the implication it's an issue of angry vets picking on newbies and ppl with complaints about the changes picking on ppl who are in favour. Just look at that abomination of a thread where pro-dev type posters are accusing ppl who seek refunds of fraud (completely incorrectly) repeatedly for a shining example of how that's not the case. It's just as bad (worse actually) IMO than ppl shouting at poster who like the changes. At least no silly claims about crimes take place (most of the time).

    This is spot on and is the problem I've seen repeatedly in the forums, someone comes in and starts making remarks about how change "x" is great and then continues to throw out insults to the "vets" that are upset about change "x". "Vets" then downvote the "newbs" based on the attack and retaliate with words of their own and it turns into a war (I've also seen this turn into someone yelling "bullying" after they threw the 1st punch).

    I haven't been around all that long compared to many and I doubt my name holds much "salt" around here, but I've disagreed with "vets" before in a calm manner with my opinions and my reasoning stated clearly and I've never been "bullied" or repeatedly downvoted for it. A little tact goes a long way in keeping things civil and if you disagree without adding in insults or telling someone they're wrong and you're right (it's simply a difference of opinion, not something you can tangibly prove one way or the other), you'll see a much friendlier community.