The upcoming X-Force nerf: The final nail in the coffin?

Stax the Foyer

elvy75 wrote:

TaoSpoons wrote:

This may be a mightily unpopular opinion, but I agree with the notion that X-Force needs a nerf. If my suspicions about their plans for 4-star characters are correct, I can see how he's above the 4-star power band they're trying to establish. X-Force as-is breaks (what I see as) their mold by allowing too much consistent damage output and utility. Both should be lower, or their costs should be higher for the output delivered.

But that is me speculating.

If they want 4* to be slightly better than 3* then they should cost that much more than 3*. I am sorry but for double amount of HP and ISO, they should be much better than the 3*. Currently you have each category costing double the price of previous one, and is as much powerful, so why 4* cant be as powerful? It is not the problem in xforce, and it wasnt the problem with GT (who was really bad on defense btw), the problem is that they are not able/willing to make other 4* worthy. Without real 4* players will lose the interest, as a lot of people i know were still playing just for the promise of 4* tier.

This. This new approach to 4* balance came out of nowhere with the GT nerfs.

Powerful 4*s existed for months, and took significant resources to max out. There was no reason for any of us to believe that this wasn't intentional on the part of the developers, and we acted accordingly.

Then, there was a seismic shift in game design and balance over the past few weeks. It was done without any meaningful advance warning, was justified based on mechanics that have been apparent for months to anyone who could read the skill descriptions and do math, and was done with minimal communication before and after the changes.

I'm not sure how the developers can regain the trust of the community after this.

TaoSpoons

ephyzephy wrote:

If a 4* isn't supposed to be significantly better than a 3*, the what's the point?

The question is how you define "better". For a lot of people, better seems to be measured only in raw strength; ie, higher damage output, health, and utility of the individual hero. I think that's because these things are the most visible and that makes them easy to understand. However, they aren't the only measure of "better" you can have and from a game theory standpoint, promoting only those measures is ruinous in the long-term. There can be only one "best" in that scenario. You know this because it's the current game design and you've seen it happen with X-Force/4-Thor/Whatever.

However, there are alternatives.

My personal theory is that the 4-star class is going to be reworked to become a class of generals. They won't be meant to be played with each other necessarily, though as the roster of 4-stars expands that may become viable. Instead, they'll be designed to have high synergy with 3-stars who use certain mechanics.

Here's a short list of synergy themes I'm starting to see:
4-Thor and charged tiles
Invisible Woman and locked tiles
Kingpin and countdown tiles
Elektra and trap tiles
Professor-X and boardshakers

The game can change at any time and none of the abilities these heroes currently have need remain as they are forever. If these characters are reworked to promote this "enhanced synergy" design and new characters are released to complement it, I foresee a series of naturally competing teams who aren't necessarily better or worse than each other occurring as a result. If the game does build towards that state of affairs, it would preserve endgame play diversity while at the same time not completely devaluing the entire 3-star roster the devs spent a year+ creating.

Mind you, this is pretty hefty speculation but it has at least some evidence to back it up. Also, even if this speculation is right, I'm sure some 4-stars are going to be standouts from this theme because you can only have so many game mechanics to cluster around.

On the whole, though? This theoretical game I'm foreseeing is a game I'd be excited to play.

And that is my answer to your question.

DubbaHuss

First of all, thanks to J1P for opening up this discussion in a positive and construconstructive way. Positive attitude is the only way to get positive changes, you're 100% right on that.

I've been at this game since day 1 and been playing with most of the same crew the entire time. We've grown together and I've done my best as a commander to keep us together and motivated. When I spend more time in a week trying to keep things copasetic because of nerfs and extra grindy pve's and huge mmr changes piling up one after the other than actually playing, something is way off.

I'd love to see many of the suggestions on this forum implemented, but who knows. I'm not going to pretend I have any valid suggestions that anyone would listen to. I just know that these slew of changes are coming on the heels of the recent acquisition of d3 by Sega and I wonder if that plays a role in all of this.

I'm gonna play out this season, play the rumored ultron pve to my best ability, and then finally, after 500 plus days, I'm gonna take a rest while this mess sorts itself out. I'm tired of defending a company whose reasoning I either no longer understand or agree with.

I know this may sound like just another vet whining that I can't stomp on the little guys anymore, but I've devoted months of my life to getting better and to have the fun stripped away so rapidly by so many things is just disheartening. I was a noob getting stomped on too once, with time and dedication I built myself and my loyal team. Now things out of my control make me struggle every day to keep that going. Enough is enough.

TaoSpoons

Stax the Foyer wrote:

This. This new approach to 4* balance came out of nowhere with the GT nerfs.

Powerful 4*s existed for months, and took significant resources to max out. There was no reason for any of us to believe that this wasn't intentional on the part of the developers, and we acted accordingly.

Then, there was a seismic shift in game design and balance over the past few weeks. It was done without any meaningful advance warning, was justified based on mechanics that have been apparent for months to anyone who could read the skill descriptions and do math, and was done with minimal communication before and after the changes.

I'm not sure how the developers can regain the trust of the community after this.

I've already said my piece on where I think the game is going and where the recent changes fit into that but communication is a slightly different issue I haven't said anything on. I'll respond to that.

While I agree that communication from the designers could be better in some ways, I also think they're essentially in a no-win situation when it comes to communication. They have contractual obligations, they have software development limitations, and they have the damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't aspects to discussion with the forumgoing community all to consider before they even open their mouths. At a certain point, it just becomes really smart to say nothing until the day a planned change goes live and let people experience the change for themselves.

From what little I've seen, I think the designers are communicating better than they used to on the whole. I think they can do significantly better but they're not doing supremely godawful now (I'd rate them a C), I think they are learning what and when to communicate with the public (which is important), and I have a certain sympathy for their situation (I worked for a time in a role with public communications aspects). That's why I'm willing to be patient with them.

Besides, it's not like I can't go play other games for a few months and check back in later. That's the great thing about this game - it's so easy to pick up AND to put down.

KrazyKeylime

ephyzephy wrote:

People calling for ANY kind of XF nerf, kind of miss the point that a lot of us are saying.

I'm not scared of change, and actually I advocate a great amount of change in the whole game's structure as per some of my other posts. I don't think most of the vets are scared of change.

What we want is a goal to aim for in developing our rosters - a reason to go through the grind. The devs continually drop 3*s at the moment, but to what end? I have maybe 15 maxed 3*. Do I need another. Sure IF and KK may actually be elite 3*s but aren't they overpowered in the context of a 3*?

Anyone calling for a nerf to XF, can you answer me one question? If a 4* isn't supposed to be significantly better than a 3*, the what's the point? Why grind 5 times as hard to max cover the 4* and then invest twice the ISO to have a character that isn't any better than the top 3*s.

We now have what 9 4* characters? How many of those are significantly better than 3* Thor, Daken, Hood, IF or KK? Then answer how many of them are no better or actually worse?

What's the next step? Nerf all the 3*s, so that Ares is the best character in the game?

Even if the XF nerf rumour isn't accurate, the devs should be working to create a class of character above the current 3* layer, so that there are more options beyond XF - not remove that one option.

operation: moonstone best character is in effect

Arondite

Cold Hard Fact : If they nerf X Force, I become a 100% F2P player.

Unknown

Without the actual nerf details, it's really hard to tell whether the proposed change is justified or not. Considering D3's previous nerfs, I can understand why people get upset if X-Force and nerf are in the same sentence. If someone actually posted the details then we could have meaningful conversation.

san

Arondite wrote:

Cold Hard Fact : If they nerf X Force, I become a 100% F2P player.

I'm with you here, bud. X-Force is the ONLY character I spent real money on, because it is absolutely necessary to get anywhere near the 700-800s at any consistent rate, without spending hours upon hours sitting there defending. He's fun, and definitely not OP, especially on defense. I've had him killed by a 2* OBW/2*Thor/loaner combo (sad, I know). Since having XF at 220, I have actually had way more fun playing this game.

I'm not a rage quitter, nor a quitter for that matter. If they nerf, I will still keep playing. I have no nostalgia about the game, having started just before the anniversary, and never having seen sentry bombing, rag bombs, enviro tiles, or 2* wolvie, thor and others before their nerf. If they nerf XF, I will still likely play, but just not with nearly as much conviction, or fun.

Fact: funbalancing is not the same when you take out the F...

ynglink

Seems that the largest topic in here is about an X-Force nerf. Let's be honest, all of us have seen this coming before the Thor nerf even happened. While I don't have a maxed X-Force, I have played against him on multiple accounts, as has everyone else for obvious reasons. I don't think that he's grossly overpowered, but I do think that Surgical Strike needs a small tweak and I think the best way to do this is just remove the AP gain. It really helps accelerate into other abilities while being a large damage dealer and a board shaker. While this is all good, it definitely hinders design on other characters, especially 4* characters that are suppose to be in line with him. Think about it, people think that he's basically trash if Black isn't at 5 covers, and that says a lot for how strong the AP gain is from it. Give it a damage boost instead and this guy will still be top tier, just not as large of an enabler for other characters.

I also think that his yellow could be re-worked so more people would be okay with using it. Even if it was something similar to how Squirrel Girl's green is where you add a passive onto the countdown tile. For example each tick down it heals X amount and then gives a health boost at the end as well. Still have the penalty for if it is matched, but it will make this ability more useful.

As for the other 4*'s, I agree some of them need boosted, but others I don't think really need it as they are interesting and 4* territory can be used for very different mechanics. I'm mostly speaking of Starlord there. Elektra's Purple needs to be tweaked so it does something if you use it with no Strike tiles on the board. I think at the very least it should have a clause where it steals AP if the opponent doesn't have Strike tiles when you use it, while still giving them their Strike tiles. IW needs completely rehauled, but we all know that. Nick Fury and Prof X are about where I expect a lot of 4*'s should be at. Dangerous, interesting, but they can't all be countdown based (Starlord) or slow (Kingpin, Nick Fury, IW)

So while everyone is up in arms against a "nerf" for X-Force, if they handle it right and just tweak the black a little bit, I'm sure he'll open more design space for future 4*'s. I also think a step in this should be 4* event buffs, since PvP is where X-Force rules all, that they should do weekly buffs on two 4*'s a week. That will help them gauge which characters also need buffed or reworked.

Unknown

They aren't just tweaking black.

ynglink

Jameson2014 wrote:

They aren't just tweaking black.

Without any evidence shown, all we have is speculation. If you'd like to show us or even just PM the "nerfed" stats and abilities, then we can discuss with the same knowledge. Without that though I will hold with my thoughts that I previously posted.

Unknown

ynglink wrote:

So while everyone is up in arms against a "nerf" for X-Force, if they handle it right and just tweak the black a little bit, I'm sure he'll open more design space for future 4*'s. I also think a step in this should be 4* event buffs, since PvP is where X-Force rules all, that they should do weekly buffs on two 4*'s a week. That will help them gauge which characters also need buffed or reworked.

And how many times have they done that? I can think of maybe 1, C.Mags, but he was almost a total rebuild, with a slight adjustment to his Every other time it seems like the rework is worse than average.

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.

Kingpin at 270 MIGHT give him a little run for his money. With 12 black you can SS for like 4000 damage and 8 AP or you can wait for Mischief to happen (thanks Loki) and do 10,000 damage and gain 4 AP from the left over mischief tiles. Plus Kingpin's extra 3k HP. I'd like to see more 4*s at this level, and less at Elektra's level.

Malcrof

Lerysh wrote:

ynglink wrote:

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.
.

How is he the easiest to obtain????? I have exactly 1 cover for him, all i have ever gotten, and i have even bought 2 40 packs...

ynglink

Lerysh wrote:

ynglink wrote:

So while everyone is up in arms against a "nerf" for X-Force, if they handle it right and just tweak the black a little bit, I'm sure he'll open more design space for future 4*'s. I also think a step in this should be 4* event buffs, since PvP is where X-Force rules all, that they should do weekly buffs on two 4*'s a week. That will help them gauge which characters also need buffed or reworked.

And how many times have they done that? I can think of maybe 1, C.Mags, but he was almost a total rebuild, with a slight adjustment to his Every other time it seems like the rework is worse than average.

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.

Kingpin at 270 MIGHT give him a little run for his money. With 12 black you can SS for like 4000 damage and 8 AP or you can wait for Mischief to happen (thanks Loki) and do 10,000 damage and gain 4 AP from the left over mischief tiles. Plus Kingpin's extra 3k HP. I'd like to see more 4*s at this level, and less at Elektra's level.

I agree that there will always be a "best" character and I'm not saying to take that away from him. The AP drain is really what just puts him way out of any form of contention. I do think they need more strong 4*'s and the current ones for the most part need tweaked. I'm not saying that they are good at reworking or rebalancing characters either, as that's what put X-Force where he is now. I also feel like that's why they haven't touched him and haven't buffed IW yet. They just don't know how to handle "fixing" characters correctly.

My thoughts are still just remove AP gain, add more damage at max covers. It's not hard and it keeps him on top.

Unknown

Malcrof wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

ynglink wrote:

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.
.

How is he the easiest to obtain????? I have exactly 1 cover for him, all i have ever gotten, and i have even bought 2 40 packs...

Then you are below day 180 of play time. Just give it time.

Malcrof

Lerysh wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

ynglink wrote:

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.
.

How is he the easiest to obtain????? I have exactly 1 cover for him, all i have ever gotten, and i have even bought 2 40 packs...

Then you are below day 180 of play time. Just give it time.

Right, but those get you 1 cover of each color.. where did you get the other 10 lol. I was severely unlucky in my token packs, (80 tokens, 0 4*'s, 4 mystiques?)

orbitalint

Malcrof wrote:

Right, but those get you 1 cover of each color.. where did you get the other 10 lol. I was severely unlucky in my token packs, (80 tokens, 0 4*'s, 4 mystiques?)

"Easy" is relative. He assumes purchasing covers after that point. You don't see another semi-relevant 4* in daily's until day 400 with Fury. Devil Dino and IW don't count . 6 months is much easier than 1.2 years.

I'm still working on a natural XF at day 450 something. Won about 6 covers, pulled another 3, got one of each from dailys. Just one more green and in time for the nerf too, wheeee!

Unknown

ynglink wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

ynglink wrote:

So while everyone is up in arms against a "nerf" for X-Force, if they handle it right and just tweak the black a little bit, I'm sure he'll open more design space for future 4*'s. I also think a step in this should be 4* event buffs, since PvP is where X-Force rules all, that they should do weekly buffs on two 4*'s a week. That will help them gauge which characters also need buffed or reworked.

And how many times have they done that? I can think of maybe 1, C.Mags, but he was almost a total rebuild, with a slight adjustment to his Every other time it seems like the rework is worse than average.

I don't feel XF needs a change. Not only is he the easiest 4* to obtain, being in daily giveaways so early on, but also the most powerful. Why does being the best merit any kind of change? Someone is always the best, it may as well be XF.

Kingpin at 270 MIGHT give him a little run for his money. With 12 black you can SS for like 4000 damage and 8 AP or you can wait for Mischief to happen (thanks Loki) and do 10,000 damage and gain 4 AP from the left over mischief tiles. Plus Kingpin's extra 3k HP. I'd like to see more 4*s at this level, and less at Elektra's level.

I agree that there will always be a "best" character and I'm not saying to take that away from him. The AP drain is really what just puts him way out of any form of contention. I do think they need more strong 4*'s and the current ones for the most part need tweaked. I'm not saying that they are good at reworking or rebalancing characters either, as that's what put X-Force where he is now. I also feel like that's why they haven't touched him and haven't buffed IW yet. They just don't know how to handle "fixing" characters correctly.

My thoughts are still just remove AP gain, add more damage at max covers. It's not hard and it keeps him on top.

I know the Devs went on record with "he's above the power band" but something I think everyone calling for XF's nerf doesn't exactly understand is he's is 6800 teir health in 4* land. Now, with the release of Kingpin, there is an 8500 health guy in 4* land, and Thor has the 10,200 health tier covered with Devil Dino at the "OMGWTFBBQ" tier of health. 6800 health guys need to bring the noise or they are useless (Patch, Kamala Khan, useful, Doc Ock, useless). If you want to remove the AP manipulation from XF, and you want him comparable to Kingpin in damage output for a straight damage cascade power then the amount of damage per tile would basically have to double to ~1000 per tile at a cost 11 ability. I could honestly care less about the AP gain if I can use SS to deal around 9,000 damage. Anything sub these numbers is an over adjustment from a "best" character to a mediocre one.

In the same thread the dev's called XF "above the power band" they also said a 4* is supposed to be 160% of a 3*. Patch has 6800 health x 160% = 10880 (close enough to 10,960). For 9 green you get 2087 damage plus 6x Strike Tiles at 148. Forgetting the drawback strike tiles (and there are ways to counter/ignore those) you use them maybe an average of 5 times before they are matched away for 4440 damage + 2087 = 6527 damage lets say for 9 AP that's 725 damage per AP. XF does ~5000 damage with XF and maybe generates some cascade and board clear for 8 AP. That's 625 damage per AP. So... not 160% increase. Patch with 14 red and TBTI can do ~10,000 damage, totally ignoring the strike tiles, that's 714 damage per AP. XF with 11 black can do ~5000 damage, generate 9 AP for someone, who lets say uses a 500 per AP move (generous). That's 9500 damage for 11 ap = 863 damage per AP. So... not 160% increase.

Tell me again why everyone thinks XF is over powered?

Phaserhawk

ynglink wrote:

Jameson2014 wrote:

They aren't just tweaking black.

Without any evidence shown, all we have is speculation. If you'd like to show us or even just PM the "nerfed" stats and abilities, then we can discuss with the same knowledge. Without that though I will hold with my thoughts that I previously posted.

Agreed. What do you know? I've read this thread up and down and I've heard gloom and doom but nothing stated as to what it will be.

Unknown

People looking at code,

are you sure you are not just seeing the Old Xforce Code? The devs leave old code in the scripts.