Changes Coming In Season XIII

Unknown

whitecat31 wrote:

You match making systems is punishing people with good teams by making them only see others with good teams. It is based on average level, and it makes the game very unenjoyable. What is the point of working up to get the great hero level, if the joy of it is ruined and you can't show off? Yeah the new players may take a few hits, but that is what the ladder up is all about. They won't know what challenge is anyway because you make it too easy for them. If you only care about winning, I would advise nobody to ever level past 94 on anything, because it will game this horrible matchmaking system.

Here's the problem, what's the alternative? New players don't take "a few hits" they are the basis for basically all points above 600. All the top rosters steal all the points from the bottom rosters, and is that really a fair deal? No, not really.

Instead I'd like a game where the 3* fights aren't QUITE as insurmountable in that taking the fight is worth more than not taking the fight. Up points gained from wins, and lower points lost from losses so that 2 pepole with equal points who constantly hit each other actually elevate score. That way the winner is the person who played the most, not the one who was hit the least or got the luckiest, or had the most people dump points to him.

Alternatively, just remove health packs. All your heroes come out of fights at full health if they are alive. So if you "win" you can go ahead and just start another fight. No gate system of health packs limiting the amount of playtime you can put towards your goals.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Here's the problem, what's the alternative? New players don't take "a few hits" they are the basis for basically all points above 600. All the top rosters steal all the points from the bottom rosters, and is that really a fair deal? No, not really.

Everyone got the same rewards (both final and progression), so it was fair that everyone was thrown together in the same pool.
If we want to be fair and stratify the player base (and why not ? In theory it's a good approach) then all the rewards also have to be stratified.
I have now to fight Xforce teams non stop ? Ok, but make it worth my while.

Unknown

Grosnours wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Here's the problem, what's the alternative? New players don't take "a few hits" they are the basis for basically all points above 600. All the top rosters steal all the points from the bottom rosters, and is that really a fair deal? No, not really.

Everyone got the same rewards (both final and progression), so it was fair that everyone was thrown together in the same pool.
If we want to be fair and stratify the player base (and why not ? In theory it's a good approach) then all the rewards also have to be stratified.
I have now to fight Xforce teams non stop ? Ok, but make it worth my while.

Everyone is still in the same reward pool, they are just stratified differently. Instead of MMR (manipulated by tanking) now it's roster. There is no difference what so ever. Saying that the guppy in the shark pool has it "fair" because everyone is together just isn't right either.

This current set up may not be the answer, but going back to Noob farming isn't the answer either.

Unknown

Let's imagine an old-style PvP with an infinite amount of time. Nobody would ever feed from someone with a lesser roster, because they would reward less points than the ones with better rosters. And what the players want are points.
So why do the 2* players feel (with some right to this claim) they are fed on in the PvP ?
They are by all the 3* and 4* late for the show.
So if there is an unfairness, it's because of the limited lifespan of the PvP events. Intrinsically, the system was fair.

But I agree with you it was highly unperfect, if only because PvP are limited in time.
I really have nothing against the current solution of stratifying players. But then the devs should go all the way and also give different rewards (both progression and final). Then I'd be perfectly ok with the current system.

whitecat31

Azoic wrote:

It sounds like a lot of ppl complaining about hitting the wall are the folks running with 166+. You guys are the wall. These changes were meant so even the folks with owning pvp with 5 166s couldn't prey on all the 94s. Now you have to fight equal teams to do your climb. I just said to my wife the other day how annoying it is that every retaliation opportunity I get is against 166-270s, so I habe to skip.

I am going to enter pvp in awhile and will update if I hit the wall, too. My max is profx at 112, and I dont have any fully covered 3* yet.

Ok, I entered. Mainly using my 107 cage/IF combo. One team after the seed had a 220 xf for some reason, but others were all 94s. I skipped that one and another pair of 94s. I climbed to about 200 and ran into some 130s. I can handle that.

Really didnt see 166s until 400+, but could still find 94 teams worth good pts anyways. So I am liking the changes. I honestly don't see how you all complain just because you don't have it easy anymore...equal teams. I think this could address the annoying sniping, too, since you can't quickly hop on the 94s.

Good job, devs!!

Yeah, it sounds great until you get to that level. So for you to have fun, stay at 94 and don't level anybody. I am glad you are doing great with your teams, because you are doing so much better than the loyal customers who have busted their **** to get good rosters.
Of course if it stays this way I don't expect you stick around, there is a saying
What comes easy won't always last, what will last won't come easy.
or
Northing worth having comes easy.
Basically, when you find out that hard work is not rewarded here (if they keep this system), and keeping it easy is, you go on to a game that rewards you instead of punishes you for your hard work.
Oh by the way.. The higher end teams don't hop on the 94's. They are at a high level with high point teams. Those 94 teams are usually worth 10 points at best, and not worth it.
So they hop on the tough teams.

whitecat31

Lerysh wrote:

Grosnours wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Here's the problem, what's the alternative? New players don't take "a few hits" they are the basis for basically all points above 600. All the top rosters steal all the points from the bottom rosters, and is that really a fair deal? No, not really.

Everyone got the same rewards (both final and progression), so it was fair that everyone was thrown together in the same pool.
If we want to be fair and stratify the player base (and why not ? In theory it's a good approach) then all the rewards also have to be stratified.
I have now to fight Xforce teams non stop ? Ok, but make it worth my while.

Everyone is still in the same reward pool, they are just stratified differently. Instead of MMR (manipulated by tanking) now it's roster. There is no difference what so ever. Saying that the guppy in the shark pool has it "fair" because everyone is together just isn't right either.

This current set up may not be the answer, but going back to Noob farming isn't the answer either.

I try to know who I am talking with to get a perspective of where they are coming from. I don't want this to be an "Ad Hominem" attack so I want to build an explanation of why you have your perspective and how I believe it is disingenuous.
First off you are with "We are Groot"
"We are Groot" is an alliance that usually finishes number 1 in PVE. If anybody wants to go to their PVE score and look at the current PVE alliance top 10, you can see what I am talking about. They will be there.
You look at the roster of most of the people in "We are Groot" and you will noticed most of them INTENTIONALLY keep their rosters low level to game the "PVE" system.
"We are Groot" takes advantage of scaling and most of them NEVER face the level 395 teams. You guys are rewarded for NOT sinking ISO into your teams. You get high end covers rather easily, over people who have sunk ISO into their teams thinking it will help them.

Now this new match up system REWARDS you again. You won't have to face the tough teams up to a certain point, because you are invisible to them. You know this, and I know this.
This new system in PVP will also allow those level 94 teams of the "We are Groot" to be basically invisible to most people who sink ISO into their teams.

So DEVs this system does not reward the newbie players like you think, it rewards the player that games the systems.
Because I guarantee you, that your newbies are going to be facing low leveled nearly fully covered X-force teams and getting pounded upon.

At the same time this system punishes the long term players who sink ISO and hard work and effort to level up their teams.

Unknown

Not actually with We Are Groot, I just like Groot so I stole their sig. My roster is like any other vet, 270 XF, 15 maxed 3*s. See where it says Chaos League member there?



All systems reward those who game the system. It's just a fact of competition and video games in general and competitive video games in particular. That doesn't mean you don't strive to have the best system available. Whatever the rules are the gamers will figure out the best way to game the system.

I agree the current set up made things much more difficult for 270 players. I wouldn't go so far as to say it "punishes" them because punishes how, by making them fight at their weight class? I'm sorry you can't farm noobs anymore but that practice couldn't be allowed to continue.

I dunno what the correct system is, but this current change is sorta meh when it comes to a balanced PvP system. You need something to change to make fighting a 166 team worth the effort. I had some ideas down here. Easiest thing to adjust I think is to just make PvP have a much more positive expected value for matches instead of the close to 0 sum we see above point thresholds. If I hit you for 35 but you only lose 20, and you get a a retaliation node worth 35, where I only lose 20, we can play each other all day for 15 points a match. Then it wouldn't matter as much that fights take so much effort because at least you are getting something for it.

Also, it seems the cutoff for "hey everyone look at me and take my points" is rank dependent, and not points dependent. So brackets evolve in a strange way where people are constantly tearing down the top 50 to become the new top 50 to tear down. Just seems off. I can see like, "above 600 points you are visible" but not "above rank 50 you are visible" because that basically just guarentees no 2* team can ever rank 25+.

Azoic

Um, yah, the max teams do farm off 94s. Why hit a team worth 28, who might retaliate, whwen you can hit a few 94 teams whom have no choice but to take it? That is what happens if you het over 400 pts, which is no where near any meaningful progression. You had to be lucky to hit t100 at all, so pvp was good for a little iso and a heroic token.And being farmed.

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

I think we need a sub event for each pvp event, restricting rosters. Pick a path and reward string, but limited on lvl able to enter. Actually separate the tiers of transitioners. I could imagine pvp in WoW where lvl 100s were able to get credit for killing 30s...lol.

But hey, Vets will likely still be able to farm the noobs in LRs, right?

fmftint

If there's a shortage of opponents worth a meaningful number of points in this band, you can be matched with easier teams than that.


How many players would that be? Because I cycle through the same 3 player, in the same order and can't find points worth breaking shield for

Unknown

Azoic wrote:

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

Except it's not doing that. I'm constantly getting hit by people much higher leveled than me, and not seeing anyone below me. At all. It's working badly. If this is how it's intended, it's intended to be unplayable. And, in any case, it shouldn't be easier for the 94s to place than the 166s. That's just stupid.

OnesOwnGrief

Ben Grimm wrote:

Azoic wrote:

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

Except it's not doing that. I'm constantly getting hit by people much higher leveled than me, and not seeing anyone below me. At all. It's working badly. If this is how it's intended, it's intended to be unplayable. And, in any case, it shouldn't be easier for the 94s to place than the 166s. That's just stupid.

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

dkffiv

Azoic wrote:

Um, yah, the max teams do farm off 94s. Why hit a team worth 28, who might retaliate, whwen you can hit a few 94 teams whom have no choice but to take it? That is what happens if you het over 400 pts, which is no where near any meaningful progression. You had to be lucky to hit t100 at all, so pvp was good for a little iso and a heroic token.And being farmed.

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

I think we need a sub event for each pvp event, restricting rosters. Pick a path and reward string, but limited on lvl able to enter. Actually separate the tiers of transitioners. I could imagine pvp in WoW where lvl 100s were able to get credit for killing 30s...lol.

But hey, Vets will likely still be able to farm the noobs in LRs, right?

In WoW you can't earn top tier rewards until you hit max level. The gear you acquired was useful but you outgrew it quickly if you leveled. By your logic you should only be getting standard tokens from the event and competing for 2* covers.

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

270s. Lots and lots of 270s. Maybe 1 in 10 teams I see don't have a 200+ level X-Force, and all but a couple of my losses have come from 270/270/290 teams.

OnesOwnGrief

Ben Grimm wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

270s. Lots and lots of 270s. Maybe 1 in 10 teams I see don't have a 200+ level X-Force, and all but a couple of my losses have come from 270/270/290 teams.

Comparatively speakly, I wouldn't call those much higher level. Due to the power scaling of 4*, you're right on the edge of being as effective as a 270 even being 90 levels off but I think you already knew this.

SnowcaTT

Ben Grimm wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

270s. Lots and lots of 270s. Maybe 1 in 10 teams I see don't have a 200+ level X-Force, and all but a couple of my losses have come from 270/270/290 teams.

I'm right there with Ben Grimm. 250 + 4 166's; I've never seen a 2*, I only saw sub 166's before 300 points, now it is incredibly hard for me to find a fight without a 270 or two.

GrumpySmurf1002

SnowcaTT wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

270s. Lots and lots of 270s. Maybe 1 in 10 teams I see don't have a 200+ level X-Force, and all but a couple of my losses have come from 270/270/290 teams.

I'm right there with Ben Grimm. 250 + 4 166's; I've never seen a 2*, I only saw sub 166's before 300 points, now it is incredibly hard for me to find a fight without a 270 or two.

My queue right now is 270/166 XFist, 241/166 SexMagnet, and 219/119 XHood. Whopping 81 points combined.

The top 10 alliance guys are mostly over 1000 already. I'm not sure I want to know how much spending/shielding was done to get there.

Unknown

Azoic wrote:

Um, yah, the max teams do farm off 94s. Why hit a team worth 28, who might retaliate, whwen you can hit a few 94 teams whom have no choice but to take it? That is what happens if you het over 400 pts, which is no where near any meaningful progression. You had to be lucky to hit t100 at all, so pvp was good for a little iso and a heroic token.And being farmed.

One: if you reach a point where you can't win a match without being shot down that's your own wall. Your natural place in the fray, with everyone sporting the same roster than you. You can not aim for the stars in PvP and hope not to be hit.
Two: why the heck would I play 3 matches against 2* when one match against 3* or 4* would net me the same result ? I value my time and my health pack. Bonus if I attack a team with a high score, they might retaliate which would allow me to retaliate back, offering me a good venue of prospective points.

One thing you don't want in PvP is spent tons of time and efforts, so no farming purposely 2* with low score when yours is good is not a thing. But 2* get hit a lot along the way while climbing, that's for sure.

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The top 10 alliance guys are mostly over 1000 already. I'm not sure I want to know how much spending/shielding was done to get there.

And how much out-of-game communication efforts.
Sadly being part of an alliance where my allies don't have a stellar roster, I can't do that. But that's okay, if I wanted more I should be mercing. Instead of aiming for a 1000 as usual, I'll aim at 800ish and call it a day, even though I'm tempted to not shield at all, the reward not being worth at all the time and efforts invested.

fmftint

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

SnowcaTT wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

What exactly is much higher level than you? I read this and had to take a much needed look at your roster. I was shocked to see 31 Lvl 166 covers, a cover maxed 180 XF, Devil Dino, IW, and Fury. That's crazy compared to my roster and the ISO investment that takes. You have to be sitting within the top 5%> global in terms of roster strength and I've been attacking some max leveled teams without a 270 4* myself. I just can't wrap my head around this.

270s. Lots and lots of 270s. Maybe 1 in 10 teams I see don't have a 200+ level X-Force, and all but a couple of my losses have come from 270/270/290 teams.

I'm right there with Ben Grimm. 250 + 4 166's; I've never seen a 2*, I only saw sub 166's before 300 points, now it is incredibly hard for me to find a fight without a 270 or two.

My queue right now is 270/166 XFist, 241/166 SexMagnet, and 219/119 XHood. Whopping 81 points combined.

The top 10 alliance guys are mostly over 1000 already. I'm not sure I want to know how much spending/shielding was done to get there.

I'd love to find 3 matches combined for 81 points! I'm sitting at 710, 3rd in my bracket and can't find anyone worth more than 15

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

Azoic wrote:

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

Except it's not doing that. I'm constantly getting hit by people much higher leveled than me, and not seeing anyone below me. At all. It's working badly. If this is how it's intended, it's intended to be unplayable. And, in any case, it shouldn't be easier for the 94s to place than the 166s. That's just stupid.

Does this thread need a reminder at the top of every page that, just like before, when you get high enough points it's open season, so it will never, ever, ever, ever be easier for a 94 team to place well than a 166 team? (not to mention that the claim that 94-level teams fighting other 94-level teams as well as the occasional 3* transition team have it "easier" than 3* and 4* teams just because they're no longer fending off a maxed x-force every 5 minutes is highly dubious)

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

Azoic wrote:

I love hearing "horrible matchmaking system," since ppl are just mad that it works as intended...matchmaking against someoene your lvl. That is what matchmaking is.

Except it's not doing that. I'm constantly getting hit by people much higher leveled than me, and not seeing anyone below me. At all. It's working badly. If this is how it's intended, it's intended to be unplayable. And, in any case, it shouldn't be easier for the 94s to place than the 166s. That's just stupid.

Does this thread need a reminder at the top of every page that, just like before, when you get high enough points it's open season, so it will never, ever, ever, ever be easier for a 94 team to place well than a 166 team? (not to mention that the claim that 94-level teams fighting other 94-level teams as well as the occasional 3* transition team have it "easier" than 3* and 4* teams just because they're no longer fending off a maxed x-force every 5 minutes is highly dubious)

Open season for me started at under 300 points. It is probably easier for me to get to 800 (though I won't get there); it's harder for me to get to 400-500. The open season point is clearly much higher for the 2*s than the 3*s or the 2*s wouldn't be talking about how much they love this system. I'm probably not going to get much ahead of 600 in this, which is where open season starts, because if I unshield I'm going to be hit by 15 270 teams.