Nerfs, diversions, and you.

simonsez

scottee wrote:

With the 3 turns of stun, that's plenty of time to gather either 10 red or 9 blue. Or if you can get 11 black in that time

Wow, between this, and the way you have never ever had magstique fail, I'm so jealous of the way the board always gives you exactly the matches you need.

simonsez

daibar wrote:

If you fully read IF's character discussion thread, you'll see vast comparisons of IF's IFoKL with every other transformation ability and wonder why it still doesn't cost 7 AP or more in it's current form.

Wondering about the cost, or remarking that it's really strong, isn't quite the same as "clamoring for it to be nerfed"

scottee

simonsez wrote:

scottee wrote:

With the 3 turns of stun, that's plenty of time to gather either 10 red or 9 blue. Or if you can get 11 black in that time

Wow, between this, and the way you have never ever had magstique fail, I'm so jealous of the way the board always gives you exactly the matches you need.

Are people playing like the AI and casting abilities as soon as they have them? You should wait till there are two enemies left, and one has 7.6k health. If you've already saved 9 blue and 10 red, you'll mostly likely have MORE than that. So after you Power Surge/Smite, you re-evaluate. If you have 3 blue, 4 red, and 5 black afterwards, you look at the board and decide which ability you can get in 3 turns. Charged tiles make the blue or red route easier, but sometimes black is. Or sometimes you can win with green.

3 turns is a really long time. The current ability at 4 turns is way too much. A lot of the time I'm just making useless matches at that point to wait to heal 1k from a recovery tile before ending the match.

With 8 charged tiles on board instead of 16, this will certainly be harder. What NO ONE knows is how much harder, because no one's played with her new abilities yet.

NorthernPolarity

simonsez wrote:

daibar wrote:

If you fully read IF's character discussion thread, you'll see vast comparisons of IF's IFoKL with every other transformation ability and wonder why it still doesn't cost 7 AP or more in it's current form.

Wondering about the cost, or remarking that it's really strong, isn't quite the same as "clamoring for it to be nerfed"

john1620b wrote:

I agree that this character seems rather overpowered. How in the world do the same character designers create Beast, and this character?

Oldboy wrote:

Please don't hate me but his Purple (and maybe Black) needs to be nerfed. From the player's point, these 2 abilities are great. But if and when we end up having to fight him, it would be a nightmare. And i think he could break PVP although i'm not that experienced in PVP.

Imagine him with Magstique or with Mystique/4*verine or any purple/black collector.

Edit: i would love to use him fully or even partially covered but 5 AP would be even more or just as annoying than buffed Daken or Ragnorak or buffed Juggernaut.

Edit 2: now imagine him with goons feeding him purple (if it's a villain)

ballingbees wrote:

That purple ability says 'nerf me' anyhow I try to read it.

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I didn't realize this in the initial analysis for some reason, but IF's purple at level 5 is essentially a thunder strike without the 2k damage for 5 purple AP. Pair that with Surgical or RotP, and you basically have 5 purple: surgical or RotP instantly. This guy is probably insane in PvP as a result. I have no idea how the current incarnation of purple got past testing, because it seems extremely powerful, and borderline broken.

+3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.

Uh huh, clearly people weren't clamoring for IF to be nerfed: these were all written within the first 5 pages of the character thread, before he was even released.

simonsez

scottee wrote:

A lot of the time I'm just making useless matches at that point to wait to heal 1k from a recovery tile before ending the match.

Same here... but I think that's mostly to do with how easy it is to keep blue >=9 with so many tiles getting charged. Like you said, we'll just have to wait and see first-hand how much harder it is to keep it going with 7 fewer tiles.

simonsez

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Uh huh, clearly people weren't clamoring for IF to be nerfed: these were all written within the first 5 pages of the character thread, before he was even released.

Good job... you found 3 posts in 5 pages. D3 is lucky the throng didn't storm the gates and drag them out to the guillotines...

GuntherBlobel

simonsez wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Uh huh, clearly people weren't clamoring for IF to be nerfed: these were all written within the first 5 pages of the character thread, before he was even released.

Good job... you found 3 posts in 5 pages. D3 is lucky the throng didn't storm the gates and drag them out to the guillotines...

Nah.. those posts probably just sent people running to the Cover store for the new "early release" Token availability.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

Ah, that makes plenty of sense. Yeah, if you don't have X-Force or another strong pairing, then the nerf hits especially hard. For those at the top ranks who have both maxed, then it's not as big of a deal.

Lol what would "another strong pairing" be in this context?

Unknown

Loki for one

Omega Red

wirius wrote:

This is in regards to the people out there who are saying you should go contact google and others for a refund over, of ALL things, nerfs in a video game.

Most of us know that D3 did nothing wrong. Legally, they are fine, and going and hurting google or apple and even D3 over the issue of a nerf is wrong. So why are perfectly rational people arguing this? I'm going to argue its not about D3, its about them.

You see, because people spent so much money or time on these champs, they've become incredibly emotionally invested. How healthy that is is not being debated. So when the nerf happens, some people have a few negative emotions flood them. Anger at having power taken away. Feeling foolish because they spent money or time on a good that is so easily changed. A feeling that they themselves made a mistake.

Now mature people who feel these emotions can look at this and say, "O.k., maybe I was foolish to expect this would never change." "Maybe I shouldn't have spent that much money, etc." Immature people think, "I have these horrible emotions, and the cause must be something else. They caused this!" Instead of saying, "Maybe I shouldn't have expected this to remain forever they say," "I got duped!" Instead of saying, "I made a mistake," its, "They should have play tested the champion better!" Instead of saying, "I had the best in the game but now its more balanced for everyone involved," they say, "It was fine, they scammed me of my money/time!"

TLDR: The point is, its time to stop blaming other people for your emotions over nerfs and turning game companies who balance the game into bad guys. They're a company that is trying to make the game more fun and accessible with anyone. Voice your opinion, but don't argue to hurt legit companies and make honest workers have to handle your farce of a business fraud claim because you can't handle your own shame, loss, or regret.

There is a difference between a legal action and an ethical action. Politicians do all the time all sorts of terrible things with the law in their hands. You can do a legal, but unethical thing, like accepting a player's money for a cover knowing that you are about to nerf it the next day. Some players feel like they have been scammed, robbed. A lot of the blame for that falls on the players themselves who naively give away their money not understanding how these things operate, but a lot of the blame also falls on D3P for not communicating properly and openly. The reason why people are taking this to google and apple is because they feel the game is not compensating them properly for what they thought they were buying with real money, and because their experience with customer service has not been satisfactory. If D3P worked better in informing and educating their player base and compensated more fairly those who made the most untimely purchases no one would be talking about legal action or requesting a refund from their credit card.

The company might be legit, the workers might be honest, but the business model itself gives plenty of material for legitimate ethical questioning.

Unknown

Original post is patronising

Unknown

scottee wrote:

Are people playing like the AI and casting abilities as soon as they have them? You should wait till there are two enemies left, and one has 7.6k health. If you've already saved 9 blue and 10 red, you'll mostly likely have MORE than that. So after you Power Surge/Smite, you re-evaluate. If you have 3 blue, 4 red, and 5 black afterwards, you look at the board and decide which ability you can get in 3 turns. Charged tiles make the blue or red route easier, but sometimes black is. Or sometimes you can win with green.

3 turns is a really long time. The current ability at 4 turns is way too much. A lot of the time I'm just making useless matches at that point to wait to heal 1k from a recovery tile before ending the match.

With 8 charged tiles on board instead of 16, this will certainly be harder. What NO ONE knows is how much harder, because no one's played with her new abilities yet.

3 turns is 3 matches... dunno if I would call that a really long time but I get your point.

As far as 8 tiles vs 16 a rough and ready simulation suggests it's actually a LOT worse (a bit worse would still be more than enough AP since 3 turns of stun at the current (pre nerf) number of charged tiles would still normally be overkill) and there is an expected bias towards yellow charged tiles (because of actively matching red and blue preferentially ).

You just don't see the same kind of acceleration at the new numbers of charged tiles, which I would say was a good thing if her damage had remained largely intact since IMO the acceleration was the broken bit.

On the upside it looks like the new 2* mags purple will work fairly well with getting both her colours (assuming the ability works as I expect it to) in PvE (hard to put MNM in PvP after all with XF being even more strong relatively speaking). I don't know if she will be the hero most worthy of acceleration at her new damage number but taking her stun into account might make it worthwhile. OFC that is a one time acceleration (since 9 purple doesn't fall into your lap every turn) so whether or not the boost matters at the lower damage levels she generates will probably depend on node specifics and scaling....

(I assumed mags purple places blues first, determines which ones cause matches , places red tiles on other eligible tiles, doesn't overwrite charged (or special I guess) tiles and then resolves everything oh and assumed it doesn't overwrite red tiles... which it might TBH)

wirius

Omega Red wrote:

There is a difference between a legal action and an ethical action. Politicians do all the time all sorts of terrible things with the law in their hands. You can do a legal, but unethical thing, like accepting a player's money for a cover knowing that you are about to nerf it the next day. Some players feel like they have been scammed, robbed. A lot of the blame for that falls on the players themselves who naively give away their money not understanding how these things operate, but a lot of the blame also falls on D3P for not communicating properly and openly. The reason why people are taking this to google and apple is because they feel the game is not compensating them properly for what they thought they were buying with real money, and because their experience with customer service has not been satisfactory. If D3P worked better in informing and educating their player base and compensated more fairly those who made the most untimely purchases no one would be talking about legal action or requesting a refund from their credit card.

The company might be legit, the workers might be honest, but the business model itself gives plenty of material for legitimate ethical questioning.

I agree completely with the last statement. A serious and rational discussion about the ethics of many free to play models is a great discussion to have. My issue has never been with the people simply upset over the nerfs. I'm also not upset about questioning the ethics of the free to play model. What I find completely out of line is acting childish and accussing the company of theft when that is clearly not a fact, then telling other forumites to go harrass google and apple for refunds and try to taint the company due to childish impulses. I detest dishonest companies, but I also detest dishonest people who accuse honest companies of falsehood for their own agenda.

I've mentioned several posts through out this topic refrencing the legality of the issue. D3 has done nothing wrong, and are fully in their rights. (At least by American law) If you don't like that they haven't been forthright with things, don't spend your money anymore. Quit the game. Accept responsibility for investing in a company that upheld their obligated end of the bargain, even if it didn't pan out like you thought it would. If it makes you feel foolish that you spent that much money and weren't aware of what you got into, welcome to a life lesson.

If this has come across as patrionizing to some, it is, but only directed towards those who are falsely accusing a company of robbery and actively trying to hurt it. I consider this immature and treat it as such. Everything else is good lively debate.

Unknown

wirius wrote:

I agree completely with the last statement. A serious and rational discussion about the ethics of many free to play models is a great discussion to have. My issue has never been with the people simply upset over the nerfs. I'm also not upset about questioning the ethics of the free to play model. What I find completely out of line is acting childish and accussing the company of theft when that is clearly not a fact, then telling other forumites to go harrass google and apple for refunds and try to taint the company due to childish impulses. I detest dishonest companies, but I also detest dishonest people who accuse honest companies of falsehood for their own agenda.

I've mentioned several posts through out this topic refrencing the legality of the issue. D3 has done nothing wrong, and are fully in their rights. (At least by American law) If you don't like that they haven't been forthright with things, don't spend your money anymore. Quit the game. Accept responsibility for investing in a company that upheld their obligated end of the bargain, even if it didn't pan out like you thought it would. If it makes you feel foolish that you spent that much money and weren't aware of what you got into, welcome to a life lesson.

If this has come across as patrionizing to some, it is, but only directed towards those who are falsely accusing a company of robbery and actively trying to hurt it. I consider this immature and treat it as such. Everything else is good lively debate.

Another high quality post aimed at fostering discussion! I think we should take this opportunity to examine what it is that makes this post so great, that way we can all become just that little bit better....

So we need to get at least one insult into the first paragraph ESPECIALLY since the first 2 sentences give the false impression our post might be reasonable.... oh it's OK!!! We can call everyone who disagrees with us childish! Now THAT is how you get a reasoned discussion going.... insult anyone who might disagree with you!

Next up we need to twist some facts . Let's call everyone who spent money on the game an investor! What do you mean they're customers? Investors inherently accept risks when putting their money into something and customers have rights! I can't possibly argue against a customer's rights because those are clearly defined legally and morally.... nope.... definitely investors.

Now we've established consumer rights are inapplicable because you're all investors let's try and suggest that going to apple/google is actually an entirely abnormal act as if they are a completely unrelated 3rd party. I need to make it seem like there is some other completely reasonable way you can seek a refund (just in case you still think you're a consumer and not an investor for GOD KNOWS what reason since I informed you you made an investment not a purchase but some ppl are just childish I guess). What? Your money was handed over to Apple/Google and you can only go for a refund from the person you actually gave money to? YOU MONSTER! Stop being unreasonable and trying to get around the clearly defined and reasonable system of ... err.... well you should just know!

Slap in a quick jab about being foolish in case childish isn't enough of an insult. CHECK
Describe it as a life lesson to imply the act of making a purchase itself has value so it doesn't matter what you actually get for your money. CHECK
Say the post is patronizing YOURSELF in the hope that stops other ppl mentioning it. CHECK
Quick callback to the initial childish insult just in case anyone forgot how much better than them you are. Lets throw in the word immature! CHECK
Throw in the word debate as if that makes this post a piece of meaningful debating. CHECK

Well then, now we all know how to be big grown up adults like you!!! We insult ppl, make wildly inaccurate statements (I'm off to invest in a Costa in a minute.... I hope they throw in a coffee with my investment!!!), add nothing of value anywhere in our entire post, avoid boring **** like justifications and finish off with an extra little insult then tell everyone how much we love lively debate!

Out of interest.... is this more valuable than simply downvoting your condescending, inaccurate, flamebaiting posts/threads or not?

Unknown

Is there an ignore button somewhere? I don't think I ever need to see a wirius post again.

simonsez

ark123 wrote:

Is there an ignore button somewhere? I don't think I ever need to see a wirius post again.

User Control Panel / friends and foes / manage foes

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

ark123 wrote:

Is there an ignore button somewhere? I don't think I ever need to see a wirius post again.

User Control Panel / friends and foes / manage foes

Well that's refreshingly flavorful and utterly cryptic.

IamTheDanger

This discussion has started going in circles. Locking before it gets out of hand.