Nerfs, diversions, and you.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

ark123 wrote:

scottee wrote:

And so you assume all future charged tile characters will be like Rag...

Like Rag and nerfed GT, yes. The only two charged tile characters in the game.

I think people underestimate the multiplicative effect of having more than one charged tile character in a match. I'm not referring to Rags. When I have 4Thor against 4Thor, I often let the AI gather blue, while I gather red. Let them stun someone unimportant, and then Smite someone to death. If I don't bring my own 4Thor, Smite team-ups hilariously serve the same role.

It's incredibly likely Gambit is on the way, and that he will also have charged tiles as a main feature to play around (like 4Thor, but not Rags). I think we're in a lull period where charged tile synergy sucks for a while, and then it's going to ramp up like crazy.

Are you **** me with this. So all charged tile skills have to be garbage because people might use more than one character that makes them? GTFO

_RiO_

wirius wrote:

If you want more specifics, lets use the EULA.

For reference: http://www.d3p.us/EULA/MarvelPuzzleQuest/

Oh! So that is where that thing I never was presented before installing or playing the Steam version of the game was hanging out.
Thanks! I love dissecting these US-centric things and striking out stuff that is more than likely unapplicable (or plain illegal) in the EU.

Speaking of which:

The Game may also include “virtual goods,” consisting of digital items such as commodities, abilities or other goods that may be earned or obtained through the Game or otherwise purchased by you using actual or virtual currency, subject to applicable law. We can manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate virtual currency and/or virtual goods, including the price thereof, at our discretion, and will have no liability to you or any third party for any of such actions. You have no right, title, or interest in or to any virtual goods or virtual currency except the following: a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Game, virtual goods and virtual currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by us.

Let me counter with EU Council directive 93/13/EEC, on unfair terms in consumer contracts which explicitly lists a number of categories of contract term that is always to be deemed unfair and unapplicable.
Among those is listed:

Terms which have the object or effect of:
(j) enabling the seller or supplier to alter the terms of the contract unilaterally without a valid reason which is specified in the contract;
(k) enabling the seller or supplier to alter unilaterally without a valid reason any characteristics of the product or service to be provided;

In effect, D3P is not even allowed to perform a nerf of a character ability (which by their own conditions is classified as a virtual good obtainable in the game) without valid reason that is explicitly stated in contract. I.e. there would need to be an explicit clause that enables them to alter character covers to maintain game balance. And there is not.

Also, if I read a bit on and get to the following part:

You agree that in the event that this EULA, your account or the Game is terminated for any reason, which may include, without limitation, our discontinuation for any reason of the applicable portion of the Game, you will forfeit all virtual currency and virtual goods, and we will have no liability to you for such forfeiture.

And from the same EU Council directive:

Terms which have the object or effect of:
(d) permitting the seller or supplier to retain sums paid by the consumer where the latter decides not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from the seller or supplier where the latter is the party cancelling the contract;
(f) authorizing the seller or supplier to dissolve the contract on a discretionary basis where the same facility is not granted to the consumer, or permitting the seller or supplier to retain the sums paid for services not yet supplied by him where it is the seller or supplier himself who dissolves the contract;

This EULA is on very shaky grounds already, no?


Now please go read Directive 2011/83/EU on consumer rights, which has gone into effect as of June 2014 and extends such things as the right of withdrawal to digital content and makes clear several requirements that a trader should obey when settling a contract for the purchase of digital content, seemingly none of which D3P is adhering to which is giving you an automatic right of withdrawal of 12 months. Oh; and you don't have to settle to receive your investment back in the form of 'vouchers'; you can demand to be paid back in equal form to how you originally purchased. So in case of Apple that means store credit with the Apple Store. In case of Steam, that means funds restored to your Steam wallet, etc.

Polares

scottee wrote:

ark123 wrote:

scottee wrote:

And so you assume all future charged tile characters will be like Rag...

Like Rag and nerfed GT, yes. The only two charged tile characters in the game.

I think people underestimate the multiplicative effect of having more than one charged tile character in a match. I'm not referring to Rags. When I have 4Thor against 4Thor, I often let the AI gather blue, while I gather red. Let them stun someone unimportant, and then Smite someone to death. If I don't bring my own 4Thor, Smite team-ups hilariously serve the same role.

It's incredibly likely Gambit is on the way, and that he will also have charged tiles as a main feature to play around (like 4Thor, but not Rags). I think we're in a lull period where charged tile synergy sucks for a while, and then it's going to ramp up like crazy.

But right now you can play 4hor alone, in the future you will need to play her with other power tile generators. If for example you usually play her with XForce, then you won't be able in the near future in PvP events. Maybe Gambit or Electro will be good, but maybe not as good as XForce, or IF or BP, etc.

Then to all the people that said that this happened in the past, there are some big differences. First, this is the first 4 being nerfed, and maxing a 4 costs more than double of a 3 and more than 4 times the cost of a 2. Second, most of the nerfs were because the chars were breaking the meta, Spidey, Cmags could beat anyone, Sentry was super fast killing a team, ragnarok could play continuosly. Other nerfs like thorverine were more similar to 4hor but as I said they were 2, so 4 times less money and time to max. And third, 4 were supposed to be the Apex of the game, so most people though that if she was not nerfed after she was presented then she was never going to be nerfed, she is worse than XForce and a little bit better than Fury and Devil Dino (far better than Elektra and Starlord).

wirius

_RiO_ wrote:

Oh! So that is where that thing I never was presented before installing or playing the Steam version of the game was hanging out.
Thanks! I love dissecting these US-centric things and striking out stuff that is more than likely unapplicable (or plain illegal) in the EU.

This EULA is on very shaky grounds already, no?

Now please go read Directive 2011/83/EU on consumer rights, which has gone into effect as of June 2014 and extends such things as the right of withdrawal to digital content and makes clear several requirements that a trader should obey when settling a contract for the purchase of digital content, seemingly none of which D3P is adhering to which is giving you an automatic right of withdrawal of 12 months. Oh; and you don't have to settle to receive your investment back in the form of 'vouchers'; you can demand to be paid back in equal form to how you originally purchased. So in case of Apple that means store credit with the Apple Store. In case of Steam, that means funds restored to your Steam wallet, etc.

Great read RiO. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm obviously an American (we're proud of getting screwed over by businesses) so I'm not sure what your recourse is. It may be that in Europe you're entitled to full refunds, and the EULA cannot deny this. As for the American laws, there is nothing for the consumer to do, and D3 is within their legal rights.

Unknown

Although USA seems to lag behind the rest of the world it doesn't mean there's a law saying you can get however screwed by a company just because it's digital.

I saw a column by an economist that studies show that monkeys will never 'take one for the team'. For example if there's a bully monkey and you offer the victim the choice to take less bananas that results the bully having less bananas and you've to take a bigger loss than the bully, a monkey will never take it. On the other hand, some people will definitely take it (here we'll assume the bully is obviously much stronger than you so this is the only way you got to hurt him). In the same column the economist decided to take on an airline that lost his bag and even though everyone told him he'd never win and that it'd cost him way more to sue the airline than whatever the bag was worth, he decided that he wasn't going to take this like a monkey, and he won. It also cost him more to sue the airline than whatever he got out of it. So the moral of the story is that if you want your rights, someone has to take one for the team and be a man, because as long as we're all monkeys obviously the 'company' is never going to lose to a bunch of monkeys. Now who wants to be the volunteer and lose more than they can possibly get back?

Raffoon

taloncarde wrote:

I can't believe that the person is trying to bring reason to people who are raging is the one getting moderated. Such a sad state of affairs.

Same person who was calling those people "self-entitled, indignant, and spoiled" and "pathetic" in another thread. If ad-hominems aren't baiting, I don't know what is.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=25394&p=313809#p313809

wirius wrote:

You bough the covers full well knowing they could be nerfed at any time. You lost the gamble, now you want the house to pay you back. Kind of self-entitled, indignant, and spoiled.

wirius wrote:

Guys, some of you need a reality slap. This is childish. Because they nerfed a few characters for overall game balance, what a responsible game should do, you guys feel outraged, self-entitled, and want to hurt the company that gave you a great game. Buying those characters was never a promise they would remain the same. You're all pathetic, stop it.

Unknown

While his tone is harsh in those comments, he's not wrong. This is silly, you can still play the same charachters, you can still enjoy a fun game. It's not going anywhere, just the forums grasp of reason.

Threatening to sue or trying to charge back money just because you don't like a change that was made is unreasonable.

scottee

ark123 wrote:

scottee wrote:

I think people underestimate the multiplicative effect of having more than one charged tile character in a match. I'm not referring to Rags. When I have 4Thor against 4Thor, I often let the AI gather blue, while I gather red. Let them stun someone unimportant, and then Smite someone to death. If I don't bring my own 4Thor, Smite team-ups hilariously serve the same role.

It's incredibly likely Gambit is on the way, and that he will also have charged tiles as a main feature to play around (like 4Thor, but not Rags). I think we're in a lull period where charged tile synergy sucks for a while, and then it's going to ramp up like crazy.

Are you tinykitty me with this. So all charged tile skills have to be garbage because people might use more than one character that makes them? GTFO

Is the new Power Surge garbage compared to the original? Yes. Is it garbage compared to other abilities. No one's quite sure yet. 9 AP for a 3 turn stun isn't bad even on its own. 5 charged tiles aren't bad either, as you get first chance at them, and the AI doesn't prioritize them.

I know everyone was happy one-shotting Hulk with the follow up Smite, but it still does over 7k damage, which is a lot. And again, gives 3 more charged tiles. 7650 damage still one-shots all support characters, and finishes medium health characters after a couple match damages. And she still has a ton of health.

I think it's way too early to say she's complete trash when no one's even tried her yet.

If they gave full iso refunds (covers are too hard to price, because earned covers are not worth as much as the HP on bought covers), how many people would sell their full 4Thor and spend the iso elsewhere? I don't think a lot would, because X-Force is still the only character who is clearly better. No one else in 3* or 4* land is clearly better than even the new 4Thor.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

ark123 wrote:

scottee wrote:

I think people underestimate the multiplicative effect of having more than one charged tile character in a match. I'm not referring to Rags. When I have 4Thor against 4Thor, I often let the AI gather blue, while I gather red. Let them stun someone unimportant, and then Smite someone to death. If I don't bring my own 4Thor, Smite team-ups hilariously serve the same role.

It's incredibly likely Gambit is on the way, and that he will also have charged tiles as a main feature to play around (like 4Thor, but not Rags). I think we're in a lull period where charged tile synergy sucks for a while, and then it's going to ramp up like crazy.

Are you tinykitty me with this. So all charged tile skills have to be garbage because people might use more than one character that makes them? GTFO

Is the new Power Surge garbage compared to the original? Yes. Is it garbage compared to other abilities. No one's quite sure yet. 9 AP for a 3 turn stun isn't bad even on its own. 5 charged tiles aren't bad either, as you get first chance at them, and the AI doesn't prioritize them.

I know everyone was happy one-shotting Hulk with the follow up Smite, but it still does over 7k damage, which is a lot. And again, gives 3 more charged tiles. 7650 damage still one-shots all support characters, and finishes medium health characters after a couple match damages. And she still has a ton of health.

I think it's way too early to say she's complete trash when no one's even tried her yet.

If they gave full iso refunds (covers are too hard to price, because earned covers are not worth as much as the HP on bought covers), how many people would sell their full 4Thor and spend the iso elsewhere? I don't think a lot would, because X-Force is still the only character who is clearly better. No one else in 3* or 4* land is clearly better than even the new 4Thor.

Fury is clearly better. He can one shot most characters with 10 blue. And he sees no play.

7k for 19 ap is much worse than Cage yellow. It's a garbage skill on a 4*, and you obviously know this. I'm not sure why you're arguing it isn't.

RyanL24

I'm still hoping somebody will explain to my why all the fuss about the changes to IF....

Iron Fist of K’un-Lun - Old - Cost: 5
Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like unto a thing of iron and strikes. If the team has less than 12 Black AP, converts 5 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.
Level 2 - Deals 598 damage.
Level 3 - Converts 6 tiles or deals 697 damage.
Level 4 - Converts 7 tile or deals 896 damage.
Level 5 - Converts 9 tiles or deals 1295 damage.
MAX Level 5: Converts 9 tiles or deals 4113 damage.

Iron Fist of K’un-Lun - New - Cost: 5
Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like unto a thing of iron and strikes. If the team has less than 12 Black AP, converts 3 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.
Level 2 -Converts 4 tiles or deals 598 damage.
Level 3 - Converts 5 tiles or deals 697 damage.
Level 4 - Converts 6 tile or deals 896 damage.
Level 5 - Converts 7 tiles or deals 1295 damage.
MAX Level 5: Converts 7 tiles or deals 4113 damage.

Unknown

That's the funny part, everyone was clamoring to see IF fixed, and now that they have "oh no i just spent all my moneys buying his covers and now you've changed him"

But mostly I think people are in a furor over Thor, even though her powers scaled crazily at 5 covers. Going from 5 charge to 12 charge tiles with one cover was insane.

simonsez

taloncarde wrote:

That's the funny part, everyone was clamoring to see IF fixed

It might have seemed that way, but it was just the same handful of people who spend all day posting that everything needs to be nerfed. The backlash represents what everyone else really thought.

simonsez

RyanL24 wrote:

I'm still hoping somebody will explain to my why all the fuss about the changes to IF....

The difference in AP generated by 9 tiles vs 7 is around 2.5 if I remember right. That's pretty significant

scottee

ark123 wrote:

7k for 19 ap is much worse than Cage yellow. It's a garbage skill on a 4*, and you obviously know this. I'm not sure why you're arguing it isn't.

I wish people would stop quoting "7k for 19ap" and then go on to compare it to other damage abilities.

Anyone who plays 4Thor regularly knows that Power Surge/Smite is more powerful any other comparable damage abilities. It lets you win a match with no further damage while there are still two heros left, even at full health.

Currently:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 12k health or lower)

After nerf:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 7.6k health or lower)

Before, a match went, use match damage and XForce or Surgical to kill lowest health character, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Now it will be, use match damage and XForce/Surgical to kill lowest health character and get 2nd down to 7.6k, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Since the 2nd highest HP is usually X-Force, that means doing about 3000 more damage than before.

Comparing only damage ignores how the X-Force/4Thor combo is used in practice.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

ark123 wrote:

7k for 19 ap is much worse than Cage yellow. It's a garbage skill on a 4*, and you obviously know this. I'm not sure why you're arguing it isn't.

I wish people would stop quoting "7k for 19ap" and then go on to compare it to other damage abilities.

Anyone who plays 4Thor regularly knows that Power Surge/Smite is more powerful any other comparable damage abilities. It lets you win a match with no further damage while there are still two heros left, even at full health.

Currently:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 12k health or lower)

After nerf:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 7.6k health or lower)

Before, a match went, use match damage and XForce or Surgical to kill lowest health character, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Now it will be, use match damage and XForce/Surgical to kill lowest health character and get 2nd down to 7.6k, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Since the 2nd highest HP is usually X-Force, that means doing about 3000 more damage than before.

Comparing only damage ignores how the X-Force/4Thor combo is used in practice.

I don't have an usable x-force. I use my thor by gathering 19 ap, killing a character and stunning the other, then scrambling to kill the third. My thor does 12k with her combo now, and will do 7k after.

You can wish for whatever you want, but reality is what it is.

A lot of characters have over 10k health when boosted. Actually, I think all of them have over 8k when maxed.

After the nerf my goddess will not be able to kill a single character from full, for 19 ap. The time it takes to deal another 3-5k damage means a lot when hopping. The nerf effectively excludes me from high level pvp, or at the very least severely cripples my score.

scottee

ark123 wrote:

scottee wrote:

ark123 wrote:

7k for 19 ap is much worse than Cage yellow. It's a garbage skill on a 4*, and you obviously know this. I'm not sure why you're arguing it isn't.

I wish people would stop quoting "7k for 19ap" and then go on to compare it to other damage abilities.

Anyone who plays 4Thor regularly knows that Power Surge/Smite is more powerful any other comparable damage abilities. It lets you win a match with no further damage while there are still two heros left, even at full health.

Currently:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 12k health or lower)

After nerf:
10 red+9 blue=win with 2 enemies left (one at 7.6k health or lower)

Before, a match went, use match damage and XForce or Surgical to kill lowest health character, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Now it will be, use match damage and XForce/Surgical to kill lowest health character and get 2nd down to 7.6k, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

Since the 2nd highest HP is usually X-Force, that means doing about 3000 more damage than before.

Comparing only damage ignores how the X-Force/4Thor combo is used in practice.

I don't have an usable x-force. I use my thor by gathering 19 ap, killing a character and stunning the other, then scrambling to kill the third. My thor does 12k with her combo now, and will do 7k after.

You can wish for whatever you want, but reality is what it is.

A lot of characters have over 10k health when boosted. Actually, I think all of them have over 8k when maxed.

After the nerf my goddess will not be able to kill a single character from full, for 19 ap. The time it takes to deal another 3-5k damage means a lot when hopping. The nerf effectively excludes me from high level pvp, or at the very least severely cripples my score.

Ah, that makes plenty of sense. Yeah, if you don't have X-Force or another strong pairing, then the nerf hits especially hard. For those at the top ranks who have both maxed, then it's not as big of a deal.

Unknown

RyanL24 wrote:

I'm still hoping somebody will explain to my why all the fuss about the changes to IF....

Iron Fist of K’un-Lun - Old - Cost: 5
Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like unto a thing of iron and strikes. If the team has less than 12 Black AP, converts 5 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.
Level 2 - Deals 598 damage.
Level 3 - Converts 6 tiles or deals 697 damage.
Level 4 - Converts 7 tile or deals 896 damage.
Level 5 - Converts 9 tiles or deals 1295 damage.
MAX Level 5: Converts 9 tiles or deals 4113 damage.

Iron Fist of K’un-Lun - New - Cost: 5
Daniel Rand focuses his chi to make his fist like unto a thing of iron and strikes. If the team has less than 12 Black AP, converts 3 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.
Level 2 -Converts 4 tiles or deals 598 damage.
Level 3 - Converts 5 tiles or deals 697 damage.
Level 4 - Converts 6 tile or deals 896 damage.
Level 5 - Converts 7 tiles or deals 1295 damage.
MAX Level 5: Converts 7 tiles or deals 4113 damage.

While I feel the nerf was warranted, I think the biggest problem was that it was known before the character was released that it was a bit OP and the devs released it anyway in an obviously broken state and then changed it a week afterwards. It came down to devs not listening to the feedback provided before releasing the character in that state. Even now, 5AP for the power provided is pretty crazy.

simonsez

scottee wrote:

Now it will be, use match damage and XForce/Surgical to kill lowest health character and get 2nd down to 7.6k, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

I'm glad the second smite is going to be trivial for you, even though you're only charging 5 tiles instead of 12. And if the last character is a GT or Dino, it's going to have to be 2 or 3 more smites, not just one. For most people though, this is going to drag out battles significantly.

scottee

simonsez wrote:

scottee wrote:

Now it will be, use match damage and XForce/Surgical to kill lowest health character and get 2nd down to 7.6k, then Surge/Smite the last 2.

I'm glad the second smite is going to be trivial for you, even though you're only charging 5 tiles instead of 12. And if the last character is a GT or Dino, it's going to have to be 2 or 3 more smites, not just one. For most people though, this is going to drag out battles significantly.

Smite adds 3 more charged tiles, so there's 8 on the board. With the 3 turns of stun, that's plenty of time to gather either 10 red or 9 blue. Or if you can get 11 black in that time, the match is over too.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

taloncarde wrote:

That's the funny part, everyone was clamoring to see IF fixed

It might have seemed that way, but it was just the same handful of people who spend all day posting that everything needs to be nerfed. The backlash represents what everyone else really thought.

While I'm surprised Phantron can just say, "oh well, it was a gamble that paid off for 3 weeks," everyone hates it when you take away something from them because people like being overpowered compared to everyone else and attributing it to their skill, much like thieves in early WOW. If you fully read IF's character discussion thread, you'll see vast comparisons of IF's IFoKL with every other transformation ability and wonder why it still doesn't cost 7 AP or more in it's current form. This was well before his release. IF's 'nerf' is a blessing in disguise to all IF owners because he's still incredibly strong if not still overpowered and Demiurge is probably hesitant to nerf a new character twice so close out of the gate. Anyone who really thinks IFoKL is balanced as currently is really needs to try designing a game.

The justified backlash around IF is that Demiurge should never have released such a broken character, and that not letting people properly know about a nerf until after a sale is incredibly shady.