Nerfs, diversions, and you.

Unknown

Of course, that said, while for obvious reasons I don't think "give full refunds" every time something is changed is a good business model, I can't imagine that, instead of "one cover worth of HP and 1 level worth of iso," say, "3 covers worth of HP and enough ISO to softcap a 3-cover character" is going to break their bank so I do kind of wonder what is going on there It might still leave players with a bad taste in their mouth but it wouldn't be so insulting

Blergh

Did they, thought they won the one about the right to re-sell the licences? But not denying the user the right or ownership of that licence without an internet?

KrazyKeylime

dang Wirus taking a lot of heat for your posts, while i don't agree while your general attitude i applaud your effort. To the issue, i would hope D3 would like to make a game where people are satisfied with their purchase and support of the game. Many people are not satisfied with with the change. the IF issues shows that they a had dropped the ball pretty bad, as the OPness of IF was brought to their attention pre release and could of tweaked it pre release, but it was not. If they were seriously considering it on release, they could of made a in game message, like the rag and sale info, saying we are trying to bring you a new character but he is unbalanced at the moment and will be changed soon, not hidden away in the back menus. While i am not such a fire brand as to suggest fraud or thief, i do feel they disappointing their player base especially those who purchased 4thor or IF. Many of the people that wanted a quick way to win or to show their support by investing into MPQ. May not of been playing and seen how heavy handed D3 can be on nerfs like many of the other players have seen, most don't know the forum exists. this isn't like most games where there are a variety of top tier teams and if there is a nerf to one of them the others are there if it falls away. xthor is clearly the top and there aren't any in site that can consistently beat them as good as they can. Your view seems a bit foolish as well, everyone is a fool to invest in the money black hole I've seen what it does and your are expected too as well.

Unknown

Ooooor some of us can recognize shady practices when we see it.

Ain't even mad but starting to feel dirty!

wirius

KrazyKeylime wrote:

dang Wirus taking a lot of heat for your posts, while i don't agree while your general attitude i applaud your effort. To the issue, i would hope D3 would like to make a game where people are satisfied with their purchase and support of the game. Many people are not satisfied with with the change. the IF issues shows that they a had dropped the ball pretty bad, as the OPness of IF was brought to their attention pre release and could of tweaked it pre release, but it was not. If they were seriously considering it on release, they could of made a in game message, like the rag and sale info, saying we are trying to bring you a new character but he is unbalanced at the moment and will be changed soon, not hidden away in the back menus. While i am not such a fire brand as to suggest fraud or thief, i do feel they disappointing their player base especially those who purchased 4thor or IF. Many of the people that wanted a quick way to win or to show their support by investing into MPQ. May not of been playing and seen how heavy handed D3 can be on nerfs like many of the other players have seen, most don't know the forum exists. this isn't like most games where there are a variety of top tier teams and if there is a nerf to one of them the others are there if it falls away. xthor is clearly the top and there aren't any in site that can consistently beat them as good as they can. Your view seems a bit foolish as well, everyone is a fool to invest in the money black hole I've seen what it does and your are expected too as well.

Thanks for the input Krazy. =D I also don't mind the heat, waring flame proof clothes. I have no objection to people thinking the IF release was done poorly, or people being upset with the nerfs. That's fine and good. I feel a line is crossed however when you start threatening legal action and trying to hurt a company when its completely undeserved. At that point, people need to reassess themselves.

ClydeFrog76

wirius wrote:

I feel a line is crossed however when you start threatening legal action and trying to hurt a company when its completely undeserved.

It's completely undeserved in your opinion.

This doesn't affect me at all, but I still think it's dodgy and under-handed and I respect the people that feel the need for compensation.

tanis3303

wirius wrote:

KrazyKeylime wrote:

dang Wirus taking a lot of heat for your posts, while i don't agree while your general attitude i applaud your effort. To the issue, i would hope D3 would like to make a game where people are satisfied with their purchase and support of the game. Many people are not satisfied with with the change. the IF issues shows that they a had dropped the ball pretty bad, as the OPness of IF was brought to their attention pre release and could of tweaked it pre release, but it was not. If they were seriously considering it on release, they could of made a in game message, like the rag and sale info, saying we are trying to bring you a new character but he is unbalanced at the moment and will be changed soon, not hidden away in the back menus. While i am not such a fire brand as to suggest fraud or thief, i do feel they disappointing their player base especially those who purchased 4thor or IF. Many of the people that wanted a quick way to win or to show their support by investing into MPQ. May not of been playing and seen how heavy handed D3 can be on nerfs like many of the other players have seen, most don't know the forum exists. this isn't like most games where there are a variety of top tier teams and if there is a nerf to one of them the others are there if it falls away. xthor is clearly the top and there aren't any in site that can consistently beat them as good as they can. Your view seems a bit foolish as well, everyone is a fool to invest in the money black hole I've seen what it does and your are expected too as well.

Thanks for the input Krazy. =D I also don't mind the heat, waring flame proof clothes. I have no objection to people thinking the IF release was done poorly, or people being upset with the nerfs. That's fine and good. I feel a line is crossed however when you start threatening legal action and trying to hurt a company when its completely undeserved. At that point, people need to reassess themselves.

Eh, people are mad. And they get to hide behind the anonymity of the internet, so it's easy to throw around words like theft and robbery and fraud and "threaten" legal activity. Clearly it's not gonna happen, any lawyer would laugh you right out of their office if anyone seriously did seek some sort of legal action. Hell, even I used the word robbery on d-day because I didn't give myself enough time to even out before posting.

But this ISO sale that's happening now, without communicating to 90% of their player base that major, debilitating changes are dropping in a few days to the very things people are likely to buy with the discounted HP is...kitty-ed up. Wirius, you've been an avid defender of D3 thru all this (and that's fine, I mean, SOMEONE has to! ) but even you have to admit that's pretty messed up. They can clearly make splash screens to communicate things (rags change, the ISO sale, any sweepstakes etc) so to NOT communicate this to the entire player base so people can be informed of what's happening before deciding what/if to spend their $ on is...idk, but it's something. Something not good...

wirius

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

wirius wrote:

I feel a line is crossed however when you start threatening legal action and trying to hurt a company when its completely undeserved.

It's completely undeserved in your opinion.

This doesn't affect me at all, but I still think it's dodgy and under-handed and I respect the people that feel the need for compensation.

No, its undeserved by fact. There is no factual basis, no evidence in any way shape or form D3 scammed people out of their money. Its obvious to most people. If you want more specifics, lets use the EULA.

For reference: http://www.d3p.us/EULA/MarvelPuzzleQuest/

In regards to "scamming" by nerfs: (Virtual Currency Virtual Goods section):

The Game may also include “virtual goods,” consisting of digital items such as commodities, abilities or other goods that may be earned or obtained through the Game or otherwise purchased by you using actual or virtual currency, subject to applicable law. We can manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate virtual currency and/or virtual goods, including the price thereof, at our discretion, and will have no liability to you or any third party for any of such actions. You have no right, title, or interest in or to any virtual goods or virtual currency except the following: a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Game, virtual goods and virtual currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by us.

For refunds under the "charges" section:

Any amounts paid for the Game or virtual items or virtual currency are non-refundable, except as expressly set forth in this EULA. You understand that all purchases and charges made by you are final. You are not entitled to any refund or return for products sold for any reason. Any election to honor a refund or return shall be made at our sole discretion.

I understand that sometimes there are opinions. But this is a fact. You don't have the right to claim that D3 has committed fraud. If people are angry with the changes, they need to deal with it maturely by feedback, and deciding how they will spend their money in the future. But false accusations because people can't handle themselves emotionally is wrong.

wirius

tanis3303 wrote:

Eh, people are mad. And they get to hide behind the anonymity of the internet, so it's easy to throw around words like theft and robbery and fraud and "threaten" legal activity. Clearly it's not gonna happen, any lawyer would laugh you right out of their office if anyone seriously did seek some sort of legal action. Hell, even I used the word robbery on d-day because I didn't give myself enough time to even out before posting.

But this ISO sale that's happening now, without communicating to 90% of their player base that major, debilitating changes are dropping in a few days to the very things people are likely to buy with the discounted HP is...kitty-ed up. Wirius, you've been an avid defender of D3 thru all this (and that's fine, I mean, SOMEONE has to! ) but even you have to admit that's pretty messed up. They can clearly make splash screens to communicate things (rags change, the ISO sale, any sweepstakes etc) so to NOT communicate this to the entire player base so people can be informed of what's happening before deciding what/if to spend their $ on is...idk, but it's something. Something not good...

Fair enough Tanis. Honestly, I find most free to play models shady. Its obvious that the game is designed to prey on people's emotional weaknesses in regards to money. Token packs are mathmatically a scam, but people buy them because they don't know any better. So are buying 4*'s btw. That's to cater to people's ego or need for power. They understand there are a few people out there who are willing to part with massive amounts of money for this illusion of power and status. So in general, yeah, its a shady model. However, it pays the bills, and the free part is actually quite good and fair. So if they decide to not let the people in game know about the changes? Eh, just fits the same pattern for me. I learned long ago to stay sharp and informed in free to plays, and be very careful with my money.

Unknown

They can do whatever they want but in the interest of the long term viability of the game it is a good idea to own up when it clearly looks like your own fault.

Let's say D3 hired me as a designer so I made a 4*, he's got an ability that's 5 red AP: does 15000 damage. So this character is previewed and I'm sure everyone will be saying, 'who designed this character???' But this character somehow made it live for a few weeks and obviously people bought him like crazy to stay competitive since it'd be pretty insane to fight a guy this powerful, and then it turned out I accidentally put an extra 0 by his damage. So D3 fired me and keeps all the money that people spent buying up this unbelievably broken character, and since I'm 100% responsible for this mess and I got fired, nobody should be angry right?

I'd think in such a scenario you'd be able to prove there obviously has to be some kind of gross negligence that nobody caught the fact I accidentally put one too many zeroes, and even if you can't win in the court of law, obviously nobody's going to just forgive D3 in such a hypothetical scenario so they better refund everyone's money if they want the game to still have any credibility. Now of course the actual nerfs aren't quite as crazy as the one I just made up, but it's pretty close. It's not like people are trying to hide this stuff.

Vankysher

Just a quick aside to address the issue of perspectives based on location.
It looks like those in the EU have some legal recourse for very specific instances for digital goods but since I'm no expert - it may or may not have any bearing on this.

http://discuss.bis.gov.uk/consumerrightsbill/what-are-my-rights-under-the-draft-bill-when-buying-digital-content/

http://www.osborneclarke.com/connected-insights/publications/apps-and-digital-games-complying-new-consumer-protection-laws-germany/

Unknown

I really don't understand the D3 apologists all over this forum. Not just this posts but similar ones.

People spent money, myself included, on things that have been and will be changed to drastic measures. Those apologists may not feel we should be outraged or frustrated with the changes but we are actually spending money. I get that F2P players want an even playing field but society doesn't work like that. Call me a capitalist but without those willing to spend money this game wouldn't exist.

NighteyesGrisu

hereinvegas wrote:

I really don't understand the D3 apologists all over this forum. Not just this posts but similar ones.

People spent money, myself included, on things that have been and will be changed to drastic measures. Those apologists may not feel we should be outraged or frustrated with the changes but we are actually spending money. I get that F2P players want an even playing field but society doesn't work like that. Call me a capitalist but without those willing to spend money this game wouldn't exist.

I, for one, have no problem with the moaning and female dogging that's been going on the last few days as a lot of it is deserved. I just think it's ridiculously going overboard to call it fraud, imply bad motives and threaten legal actions over it.

NighteyesGrisu

wirius wrote:

Fair enough Tanis. Honestly, I find most free to play models shady. Its obvious that the game is designed to prey on people's emotional weaknesses in regards to money. Token packs are mathmatically a scam, but people buy them because they don't know any better. So are buying 4*'s btw. That's to cater to people's ego or need for power. They understand there are a few people out there who are willing to part with massive amounts of money for this illusion of power and status. So in general, yeah, its a shady model. However, it pays the bills, and the free part is actually quite good and fair. So if they decide to not let the people in game know about the changes? Eh, just fits the same pattern for me. I learned long ago to stay sharp and informed in free to plays, and be very careful with my money.

yeah, that's a problem with F2P games, but to be fair, this game is handling it much better than most F2P games I've seen so far. In most it's almost impossible to advance after a certain point, unless you invest (and often invest heavily). Maybe it has to do with the marvel franchise since the other marver f2p Marvel Heroes is doing it even better, IMO.

gamar wrote:

Of course, that said, while for obvious reasons I don't think "give full refunds" every time something is changed is a good business model, I can't imagine that, instead of "one cover worth of HP and 1 level worth of iso," say, "3 covers worth of HP and enough ISO to softcap a 3-cover character" is going to break their bank so I do kind of wonder what is going on there It might still leave players with a bad taste in their mouth but it wouldn't be so insulting

Agreed. Compensation after nerfs could be better, and advance information about upcoming nerfs (especially for people who don't come here) could be much improved. Full refunds would be a bad idea, though as that would just invite players to fully max obviously overpowered new chars (like IF was) , abuse it while it last (and getting a clear advantage over others) and then get all their money back.

Unknown

hereinvegas wrote:

I really don't understand the D3 apologists all over this forum. Not just this posts but similar ones.

People spent money, myself included, on things that have been and will be changed to drastic measures. Those apologists may not feel we should be outraged or frustrated with the changes but we are actually spending money. I get that F2P players want an even playing field but society doesn't work like that. Call me a capitalist but without those willing to spend money this game wouldn't exist.

Eh, this issue has two sides. Just because you spent money doesn't mean everything has to be catered toward you. If a game developer is not allowed to make a decision that'd cause some financial losses to players that basically means they should never be able to change a character after it's been released and that'd be really bad. On the other hand, I do expect D3 to have better explanation than 'we were stupid when we made this character' when everyone told them the said character was way overpowered, and in general gaming companies have been getting away for far too long with this whole 'it's all bought by an intermediate currency that is technically worthless so we don't owe you anything! After all people just save up 20K HP all the time!' While you should not assume malice where ignorance suffices, some of these recent changes pushes the limits of what can be attributed to ignorance and thus should be handled differently than usual. Of course I'm guessing part of the problem is that they don't actually have any way to deal with anything more sophiscated than a refund. For example a 100% refund is more than sufficient for me for Thor because I don't plan on keeping her around (if I get 20K HP back that'd be more than enough to build another character to cover her role), but Iron Fist I do want around even though I'd like some of the HP I spent back because he's a top tier character but not necessarily a priority for me with my roster (I'd like to get Prof X maxed just for fun because he looks interesting), so I'd prefer Iron Fist they just rolled back the covers for the HP I spent because I'm not going to sell him even if they give me 125% of the HP cost as it'd cost me more in the long run to obtain all 3 of his covers again, and I'm not even sure if this is even a possible option even if D3 wanted to offer it.

El Satanno

OP may have come off rather smug and superior, but s/he's got a valid point. It's one thing to vent your frustration about the time/effort/money you've sunk into whichever character being...well, altered...but another to start making claims of illegal activity on D3's part. I am certainly no lawyer, but from a common sense point of view, I daresay that unless there is demonstrable evidence of a premeditated alteration of a character/gameplay element with the explicit intent of pulling a bait-and-switch you're pretty much just full of it. I have elsewhere posted that the rapid nerf of Iron Fist certainly smacks of piss-poor planning (alliteration!) but hardly constitutes proof of the CashGrab Conspiracy(TM).

By all means, rage about the changes, rage about the **** implementation, rage about the glaring flaws that go wholly unaddressed month after month, but don't go making the empty threats. OP has the right of it: It just looks silly.

Polares

wirius wrote:

ClydeFrog76 wrote:

wirius wrote:

I feel a line is crossed however when you start threatening legal action and trying to hurt a company when its completely undeserved.

It's completely undeserved in your opinion.

This doesn't affect me at all, but I still think it's dodgy and under-handed and I respect the people that feel the need for compensation.

No, its undeserved by fact. There is no factual basis, no evidence in any way shape or form D3 scammed people out of their money. Its obvious to most people. If you want more specifics, lets use the EULA.

For reference: http://www.d3p.us/EULA/MarvelPuzzleQuest/

In regards to "scamming" by nerfs: (Virtual Currency Virtual Goods section):

The Game may also include “virtual goods,” consisting of digital items such as commodities, abilities or other goods that may be earned or obtained through the Game or otherwise purchased by you using actual or virtual currency, subject to applicable law. We can manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate virtual currency and/or virtual goods, including the price thereof, at our discretion, and will have no liability to you or any third party for any of such actions. You have no right, title, or interest in or to any virtual goods or virtual currency except the following: a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Game, virtual goods and virtual currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by us.

For refunds under the "charges" section:

Any amounts paid for the Game or virtual items or virtual currency are non-refundable, except as expressly set forth in this EULA. You understand that all purchases and charges made by you are final. You are not entitled to any refund or return for products sold for any reason. Any election to honor a refund or return shall be made at our sole discretion.

I understand that sometimes there are opinions. But this is a fact. You don't have the right to claim that D3 has committed fraud. If people are angry with the changes, they need to deal with it maturely by feedback, and deciding how they will spend their money in the future. But false accusations because people can't handle themselves emotionally is wrong.

So you know if something is written in an EULA doesn't mean that it is legally bonding, at least in Europe. If you write something that is contrary to legality or forces the user in some way, it doens't apply. It doesn't care that is written or even signed by you. A contract is not law. Clients have rights, more than you would think.

So the argument you are pointing doesn't really apply. It is your opinion that what they did is ok, but it is not for most of us. For some of us, this company sold as something that was devaluated without a strong motive (4hor was not broken as were Spidey, CMags or Sentry) and it was devaluated after it was sold A LOT of times (they made their bussiness and afterwards they make place for new chars).

And worst of all, you are trying to patronize all the people that has a different opinion and you call them children, I think this says a way more from yourself than from the people that think their rights have been breached and want compensation (yes, it is a video game, but tomorrow it could be your telco, or your energy provider, or whatever). If you think everything is fine ok, but don't tell other people what to do, if people feel that their rights have been breached they have to fight for them, without anger, without descalifications, etc. it is just a matter of fighting for your rights in the digital world, because YOU HAVE THEM. Of course you can defend your opinion and defend the devs if you think they are not guilty of these behaviours, but please don't do it in a condescendent way.

I am still waiting to see how all this situation develops in the next week, how devs addresses to people, etc. but seeing that they are doing a sale (a sale in the middle of all this!!!!), and they are not communicating to the rest of the world the pending nerfs... Well, I think they really deserve to be brought to Google, Apple and Steam attention for their bad practices.

franckynight

So you know if something is written in an EULA doesn't mean that it is legally bonding, at least in Europe. If you write something that is contrary to legality or forces the user in some way, it doens't apply. It doesn't care that is written or even signed by you. A contract is not law. Clients have rights, more than you would think.

So the argument you are pointing doesn't really apply. It is your opinion that what they did is ok, but it is not for most of us. For some of us, this company sold as something that was devaluated without a strong motive (4hor was not broken as were Spidey, CMags or Sentry) and it was devaluated after it was sold A LOT of times (they made their bussiness and afterwards they make place for new chars).

And worst of all, you are trying to patronize all the people that has a different opinion and you call them children, I think this says a way more from yourself than from the people that think their rights have been breached and want compensation (yes, it is a video game, but tomorrow it could be your telco, or your energy provider, or whatever). If you think everything is fine ok, but don't tell other people what to do, if people feel that their rights have been breached they have to fight for them, without anger, without descalifications, etc. it is just a matter of fighting for your rights in the digital world, because YOU HAVE THEM. Of course you can defend your opinion and defend the devs if you think they are not guilty of these behaviours, but please don't do it in a condescendent way.

I am still waiting to see how all this situation develops in the next week, how devs addresses to people, etc. but seeing that they are doing a sale (a sale in the middle of all this!!!!), and they are not communicating to the rest of the world the pending nerfs... Well, I think they really deserve to be brought to Google, Apple and Steam attention for their bad practices

Couldnt have said it any better than that.. im tired of those people giving me lecture about how i must spend my money or react when i feel cheated.. im sorry but releasing a char, advertising him heavily in packs and then nerfing him 2 weeks later because he is op has the word "bait and switch" written all around him.. that i am an idiot or not notwithstanding..

Unknown

wirius wrote:

End user agreement: http://www.d3p.us/EULA/MarvelPuzzleQuest/

Also, kids don't have the same rules as adults.

The end user agreement can say whatever it wants. They can literally type anything they want and throw it in there. It would be up to a judge and attorneys to validate the morality of the statements and agreements.

I have poured nearly 1000$ into this game and 90% of it has gone to characters that have been butchered to the point I don't even use them anymore. When you purchase something such as this you're buying an item that has a specific quality or use. When you are sold something and it's use falls short of it's intention from the purchase it falls into the category of a scam. If I own a retail store and sell customers an item that claims to give them a great advantage over their competition it should do just that. If I come to their house and manipulate that item and degrade it's integrity or usefulness then I've essentially broke the contract of the sale.

I for one feel cheated and so should anyone else that is heavily invested in these characters and even past characters. Offering me less than half of what I invested is just adding insult to injury. This could possibly be the move that makes me quit and seek to regain some of that money I paid for a character that would give me a distinct advantage only to have it taken away from me on the grounds that at this point it almost seems like characters are being made overpowered at their creation to increase sales and to keep customers around who can't afford them, they are nerfed to a useless degree. This is both highly profitable, great for the game and extremely intolerable and unjust to the player base.

Unknown

Polares wrote:

No, its undeserved by fact. There is no factual basis, no evidence in any way shape or form D3 scammed people out of their money. Its obvious to most people. If you want more specifics, lets use the EULA.

For reference: http://www.d3p.us/EULA/MarvelPuzzleQuest/

In regards to "scamming" by nerfs: (Virtual Currency Virtual Goods section):

The Game may also include “virtual goods,” consisting of digital items such as commodities, abilities or other goods that may be earned or obtained through the Game or otherwise purchased by you using actual or virtual currency, subject to applicable law. We can manage, regulate, control, modify or eliminate virtual currency and/or virtual goods, including the price thereof, at our discretion, and will have no liability to you or any third party for any of such actions. You have no right, title, or interest in or to any virtual goods or virtual currency except the following: a limited, personal, non-transferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use, solely within the Game, virtual goods and virtual currency that you have earned, purchased or otherwise obtained in a manner authorized by us.

For refunds under the "charges" section:

Any amounts paid for the Game or virtual items or virtual currency are non-refundable, except as expressly set forth in this EULA. You understand that all purchases and charges made by you are final. You are not entitled to any refund or return for products sold for any reason. Any election to honor a refund or return shall be made at our sole discretion.

I understand that sometimes there are opinions. But this is a fact. You don't have the right to claim that D3 has committed fraud. If people are angry with the changes, they need to deal with it maturely by feedback, and deciding how they will spend their money in the future. But false accusations because people can't handle themselves emotionally is wrong.

So you're basically saying that they can sell you something and then revoke it without repercussion just because it's written here? That's laughable. Just read the statement and it screams illegal. You CANNOT sell someone a banana and come snatch it out of there hands and put an apple there. That is the definition of bait and switch which is illegal in most countries and states.