Stop using the RNG to determine cover order

Unknown

Ever since D3 let slip that they let the Random Number Generator determine how covers get awarded, it's become incredibly clear how that completely undermines some events.

Look at the current Heroic PVE. Heroics are slogs. They're difficult, you've got a limited roster, they award 20 ISO a lot, and they frustrate people. Making the blue Rags cover - which is the only one a huge number of people want, and the only one that literally everybody needs right now - the low/alliance cover, it would have ensured people's hard work was rewarded. Making it the top progression prize would have done the same thing.

Limiting it to 20 people per bracket means most people may not even bother.

Look, right now, I'm questioning whether or not to enter this PVE at all. The effort to reward ratio is completely messed up. If I kill myself grinding, and am lucky beyond that, I might get one useful cover. Might.

D3 needs to start thinking strategically about awarding covers. The recent debacles with Iron Fist and Cyclops both having one cover that was extremely hard to get, and another that was really easy, in multiple events, exemplifies this problem. Try to spread them around, make one the low/alliance in the PVE (and high in PVP), one the low/alliance in the PVP (and high in PVE), and the third be the middle in both and the progression award both in the next PVE and PVP. Set that as the formula and stick to it. When a character with two skills gets a third, make that third the low/alliance award. And rotate how people are awarded consistently from PVP to PVP (and PVE to PVE).

NorthernPolarity

Rags blue is so bad that even if I were to win one, I wouldn't apply for PvP because on top of it being worthless on defense in PvP (of which many abilities are), the charge tiles will actually accelerate MY OPPONENT on defense. Yeah, I get its the principle of the matter, but come on. This is like by far the most worthless cover we've seen in perhaps the history of the game: I guess I was foolish to think that it was possible to have an event with a slightly suboptimal reward structure that no one complained about on the forums, since if people will complain about a cover that actually makes the character worse when applied, then they'll probably complain about anything.

bdksni1

Ben Grimm wrote:

D3 needs to start thinking strategically about awarding covers... Try to spread them around, make one the low/alliance in the PVE (and high in PVP), one the low/alliance in the PVP (and high in PVE), and the third be the middle in both and the progression award both in the next PVE and PVP. Set that as the formula and stick to it. When a character with two skills gets a third, make that third the low/alliance award. And rotate how people are awarded consistently from PVP to PVP (and PVE to PVE).

+1 For this idea.

SnowcaTT

It's easy to just go in order. I've offered to keep track if they don't want to do it in-house. I mean, their deadpool daily is rotating covers.

When hood went three events without blue, and Hulk three without green, lots came out and complained. It's just gotten ridiculous at this point - there is no reason to RNG rewards. "Even" is a rotation, there is no bias with rotation starting with first ability.

Unknown

Their insistence on ceding any responsibility to use reason and common sense in determining their own reward structure to a computer's roll of the virtual dice is both stupid and dangerous. This is how we get terminators. Thanks to MPQ we are now one step closer to the Rise of the Machines. If a household appliance tries to murder you tonight, you know who to blame.

GrumpySmurf1002

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Rags blue is so bad that even if I were to win one, I wouldn't apply for PvP because on top of it being worthless on defense in PvP (of which many abilities are), the charge tiles will actually accelerate MY OPPONENT on defense. Yeah, I get its the principle of the matter, but come on. This is like by far the most worthless cover we've seen in perhaps the history of the game: I guess I was foolish to think that it was possible to have an event with a slightly suboptimal reward structure that no one complained about on the forums, since if people will complain about a cover that actually makes the character worse when applied, then they'll probably complain about anything.

I wanted the blue for the sole purpose of converting iso into an extra 125HP. Tinykitty if that's worth it in this event. I'll hope for the blue in his PvP, which should be either Sunday or next Wednesday.

I'm hoping since he's the reward, and thus most likely the boosted villian essential for the following PvE, that we're getting another (now with more competition!) Gauntlet.

JamieMadrox

Base it on need. See what cover is needed my the majority of the community and give that as the 2x. Next needed as the middle placement, least as the top.

Unknown

I don't see anything wrong with RNG for normal covers because it's not up to D3 to figure out which covers is desireable, or cater to that even if they knew what is desired. But I do think this particular instance it'd make sense to put a blue as the most commonly available one because people like to collect stuff and it's not the player's fault that Ragnarok was incomplete in the past so the chance to collect his blue cover never even existed. I don't think the usefulness of the cover matters here. I'm pretty sure a lot of people just want a blue just for the sake of having one even if they never plan on using the character and I see no harm in helping the players in this case, given his blue is indeed quite worthless.

I'd think it'd have been easier just to make Ragnarok blue the progression reward, similar to how Loki green was a Gauntlet progression reward after he got his 3rd power. And unlike Loki's green, this isn't even something useful while Loki's green is easily a top tier power.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Rags blue is so bad that even if I were to win one, I wouldn't apply for PvP because on top of it being worthless on defense in PvP (of which many abilities are), the charge tiles will actually accelerate MY OPPONENT on defense. Yeah, I get its the principle of the matter, but come on. This is like by far the most worthless cover we've seen in perhaps the history of the game: I guess I was foolish to think that it was possible to have an event with a slightly suboptimal reward structure that no one complained about on the forums, since if people will complain about a cover that actually makes the character worse when applied, then they'll probably complain about anything.

I admit it's pretty reassuring when instead of taking a 3-7K Chemical Reaction that has a small chance to cascade into something you instead took a Lightning Rod which allows you to Surgical Strike into 15 green AP. Even without Surgical Strike, it's not like the AI ever paid attention to the charged tiles so your chance of snagging a pile of green AP is pretty good.

yogi_

Ben Grimm wrote:

Ever since D3 let slip that they let the Random Number Generator determine how covers get awarded, it's become incredibly clear how that completely undermines some events.

I haven't had much time to be here recently, but where was this posted?

Do they mean the cover colour for the ranks of awards in multiday games is not picked by them?

If so...

BAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHA. Seriously??????????? They don't have some statistics that inform the number of each character coloured covers in the game and their distribution and then use those statistics to either spread or limit coloured covers in the game based on whatever goals they have at the time for the character? It's random??? Wow, talk about not giving a **** about your own game. One of the stupdiest things I have ever heard on here and that's saying something.

If not, completely ignore the above.

Thank you.

Unknown

Demiurge_Miles wrote:

Hey guys, I know this isn't going to be a popular answer, but the rewards for Lethal Intent are not a mistake. We use a random number generator when determining the order of covers for PVE and PVP rewards to ensure there's no favoritism for particular covers. As such any given cover has a 1/3 chance of being the top cover, and a 1/9 chance of being the top cover twice in a row. It hasn't happened in a while, but it does happen.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24064&p=300784&hilit=rng#p300741

Straight from the red dude's mouth.

over_clocked

Now that the Hurt ended, I have some mental capability to be contrary and stuff!

Let me point out that for a likely majority of the players, they lack ALL Ragnarok covers, considering how long he's been vaulted. Including red and green. Nevermind the blue. They will be equally glad for any of the three to be double (or maybe equally not care). I imagine the amount of the people to desire the blue covers only as a high number, but I imagine the number of the people without any as an even higher one.
I agree that relying on RNG only won't ever please the entire playerbase... but would even intelligent choice please us, the perpetually unpleasable crowd? I actually don't think it matters much in the long run. And as long as a character is balanced well enough, all 3 covers could be perceived as equally desirable on the whole, nevermind the rarity.
Now a moment of silence for GSBW red, Lazy Cap yellow, Shulk green, et cetera, please.

Unknown

The majority of the players might need all of them, but the majority also aren't getting any of the Rags covers from this event. Only 15% of the players who participate in this PVE are going to get any Ragnarok covers, and every single one of them needs the blue, whereas it's likely that the majority of people who get top 150 don't need the green. The people who get the 3* awards in a PVE are not a representative sample of the playerbase; it's heavily weighted towards vets.

But the intent of the post wasn't confined just to this event - in general, rotation is going to make for a more sensible distribution than going random every time. Going random will average out over time across the whole body of characters, but, given how rarely some of these characters are offered, it's not going to in a number of specific cases. Going random means there will be clumping on some characters, and clumping is almost always going to be bad.

Polares

Ben Grimm wrote:

Demiurge_Miles wrote:

Hey guys, I know this isn't going to be a popular answer, but the rewards for Lethal Intent are not a mistake. We use a random number generator when determining the order of covers for PVE and PVP rewards to ensure there's no favoritism for particular covers. As such any given cover has a 1/3 chance of being the top cover, and a 1/9 chance of being the top cover twice in a row. It hasn't happened in a while, but it does happen.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=24064&p=300784&hilit=rng#p300741

Straight from the red dude's mouth.

Is it that difficult to put in a database the order of all the covers as are being awarded and then rotate around this list? Then there would be no favoritism. First time is RNG then you rotate from this point on forward. Easy and simple (and fair).

And it doesn't care that Rags blue is ****, thing is a lot of people is a completionist and want to have all covers (this is way a lot of people still has all 1* and 2*).

Unknown

Assuming its RNG at all, that kind that always leave the one skill you think its the most important (Iron Fist, Groot, many others)
The same that when a 4* comes out gives you the **** one (or the less offensive one) per alliance and personal
It's just one more shady move to the list, nothing new

it's not that i expect to max my heroes in 1 tournament, but the 111 system was more simple and everything that works fine tends to be changed here while the real issues are left unattended

Unknown

Let's also not forget that many vets would have fought their way to the roughly 150 reward range and stopped playing...so those characters who needed all three covers would have better odds of slogging through a Heroic. This way...fiercer competition in an event a lot of people would have been happy to coast through.

I admit that there's a lot of complaining on the forum, but releasing a third cover for a character who's been around since launch and then not making the new cover easier to get than the other two is either silly, cruel, greedy, or some combination of the three. The last few Doom progressions, if I remember correctly, have been blue or black or some other such nonsense. I think Loki's Green was the only one that was widely available right from the start, and I guess that must be because we collectively got lucky.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

I think Loki's Green was the only one that was widely available right from the start, and I guess that must be because we collectively got lucky.

Loki's Green was the top prize (and only Loki cover) in the Gauntlet that introduced it, but was then the top 5 prize in the following PVP. It's gotten better lately - I think it's been the low/alliance prize a couple of times since - but it was bad at first. I only finished respeccing my Loki recently.

Doom was better; his Purple was the low/alliance first time out of the gate, and again recently.

Unknown

I just remember getting three of them in short order; Gauntlet Progression, PvP Progression, and something else that wasn't too difficult. I think I missed the first Doom Purple pay out due to having a real life; I may just have a skewed perception of that cover's rarity.

Unknown

I'm just hoping that Ragnarok's Blue is the Progression in next PVE. Not really liking the rewards enough in the current PVE to compete, considering real-life schedule.

Unknown

I think the RNG is a bad idea. I think they should take more interest in how prizes are awarded.

If it really is all random, then I really am unlucky. I got five green Ragnaroks before I got my first red. To this day, I only have two red, and that tells me there's something fishy going on. Maybe it's bad luck. Maybe it's that they deliberately made red hard to come by. But my feelings in that regard only add to this current problem:

Ragnarok is a release character. He's as old as any character in the game. Reasonably, a player who's been playing since the game released should have his 10th Ragnarok before his 17th She-Hulk. And yet, when they released covers 11-13 for him, they made it a top 20 in a contest you had to have earned the 4* last time to win. And what was the easy prize? The one cover they'd been giving out like candy. Top prize? Literally the hardest cover in the game to get.

Literally. As in, I've received as many Rag reds as I have each of X-Force's abilities.

So if it is a random number generator, stop it. And if it's deliberate, stop it.

SymmeTrey

Trusting the happiness of your customers to randomness working everything out seems like a bad business plan to me. Most businesses would want to control the experience as much as possible to ensure the best experience possible.