the rich is getting richer, the poor is getting....

wymtime

curlymustache wrote:

well...not poorer, but my point is:

how can a player who doesnt have 14 166s and 2 fully covered 4*s win top25? and furthermore, whats the deal with the hightier players competing WITH THEM? i mean, why do I, as a 3 month old player have to deal with other players who have two (TWO!!) xforce, fury and thor FULLY covered?

how am i supposed to do well in that bracket?

and if i am not supposed to do well, then why not making a kinda league system: the app determines your strenght and puts u in a bracket with similar strenght.

discuss, pls

via Imgflip Meme Maker

Vhailorx

Phantron wrote:

When people say they want transition to be faster I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean you can quickly get 10 maxed out 3*s and continue to barely finish top 100. The statement should really be phrased as 'how can I quickly move to top 1%/2%/5% percentile in an inherently competitive game?" Well that's actually pretty easy, just convince everyone ahead of you to quit. People seems to think the existing rich guys are just playing an hour a day and sipping on champagne and still get a top 10 finish. There's literally no way this would work because of the significant time commitment the game requires. What you have is the guys who continue to dominate are the guys who started earlier, played more, is likely better at the game than you are, and is still spending more money per day than you. It'd be like asking how can you catch up to a guy in a footrace who started out with a huge lead and is faster/stronger/tougher than you to begin with. There is surely at least 5% of the people that easily puts in more total effort/time/money than the average 'I need help as a transitioner' guy on top of their existing advantage and as long as this is true, it'd be completely unfair if anyone who is disadvantaged in every metric possible somehow breaks into the top 5%.

.

I dunno phantron, that seems like a bit much. You are correct that the game requires time, even for the top players (just look at colog's description of his play-schedule from december). But I find it hard to believe that the top veterans are much better at the game than the best transition players. The game just isn't that complicated. And because having more leveled characters gives a player more options, it is arguably easier for a the veterans to succeed than the the transitioners (who must work with sometimes sever roster limitations).

I think the main thrust of all these "rich get richer" and "help with the 3* transition" argument boil down to a simple fact: it is MUCH harder to develop a top roster now than it was 12 or even 6 months ago. The combination or vaulting and character expansion, along with the decreased rate of rewards (especially the lack of guaranteed 3*s in tokens) mean that a player who started this game in september is basically incapable of developing a top roster within the next five months, no matter how much time/money/skill they invest in the game. It means that the only way to succeed in the game is to have already succeeded many months ago when there were significantly more opportunities.

I would describe that as a serious structural problem with this game. Someone who just points out this flaw should not be mischaracterized as whining because they can't win all the covers all the time.

NorthernPolarity

Phantron wrote:

People seems to think the existing rich guys are just playing an hour a day and sipping on champagne and still get a top 10 finish.

This sadly does almost exactly describe my playstyle. For PvP, I grind to 700, sit unshielded for hours on end, and then push in the last 30-40 minutes to a cushy top 10 win. It's hard to make it and be a veteran, but once you do, the game gets far easier than when you are transitioning.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phantron wrote:

People seems to think the existing rich guys are just playing an hour a day and sipping on champagne and still get a top 10 finish.

This sadly does almost exactly describe my playstyle. For PvP, I grind to 700, sit unshielded for hours on end, and then push in the last 30-40 minutes to a cushy top 10 win. It's hard to make it and be a veteran, but once you do, the game gets far easier than when you are transitioning.

I can do that too but I'm pretty sure yours and mine roster are far beyond what the normal 'rich guy' is doing. I'm running X Force + Loki on most events, and the current Unholy Outlaw I'm running Captain America + X Force. Now X Force is undoubtedly the most overpowered character in the game but no one else on my roster requires a huge investment like Thor does.

Unknown

Vhailorx wrote:

I dunno phantron, that seems like a bit much. You are correct that the game requires time, even for the top players (just look at colog's description of his play-schedule from december). But I find it hard to believe that the top veterans are much better at the game than the best transition players. The game just isn't that complicated. And because having more leveled characters gives a player more options, it is arguably easier for a the veterans to succeed than the the transitioners (who must work with sometimes sever roster limitations).

I think the main thrust of all these "rich get richer" and "help with the 3* transition" argument boil down to a simple fact: it is MUCH harder to develop a top roster now than it was 12 or even 6 months ago. The combination or vaulting and character expansion, along with the decreased rate of rewards (especially the lack of guaranteed 3*s in tokens) mean that a player who started this game in september is basically incapable of developing a top roster within the next five months, no matter how much time/money/skill they invest in the game. It means that the only way to succeed in the game is to have already succeeded many months ago when there were significantly more opportunities.

I would describe that as a serious structural problem with this game. Someone who just points out this flaw should not be mischaracterized as whining because they can't win all the covers all the time.

I only said it is likely. Skill matters more than people think even though it's way behind money/time in terms of overall importance. You shouldn't expect to beat people who often will do everything better, even skill, even though beating someone in skill doesn't make up for the other categories to begin with.

I have no solutions for X Force's dominance but everyone else besides him is fair game. I'm currently leaning on Loki for most of my games and I had to get 5 green from scratch like everyone else, and the reason I have him maxed out is mostly due to good luck on token pulls (got 2 green cover there) even though I'm pretty sure I got every possible green cover that was awarded. One of those green cover was from the Gauntlet which is mostly a pure effort based event. I think one was for a top 5 and I have no idea where the third came from, so of course having a strong roster helped but it's far from guaranteed. In fact I don't think there has been more than 3 Loki green covers awarded thus far. Although his case is somewhat of an anomaly, it's not like one should be very shocked if a 3* came out of nowhere to change the game since that's been happening all the time, so the opportunities are certainly there.

scottee

Phantron wrote:

I have no solutions for X Force's dominance but everyone else besides him is fair game. I'm currently leaning on Loki for most of my games and I had to get 5 green from scratch like everyone else, and the reason I have him maxed out is mostly due to good luck on token pulls (got 2 green cover there) even though I'm pretty sure I got every possible green cover that was awarded. One of those green cover was from the Gauntlet which is mostly a pure effort based event. I think one was for a top 5 and I have no idea where the third came from, so of course having a strong roster helped but it's far from guaranteed. In fact I don't think there has been more than 3 Loki green covers awarded thus far. Although his case is somewhat of an anomaly, it's not like one should be very shocked if a 3* came out of nowhere to change the game since that's been happening all the time, so the opportunities are certainly there.

My Loki is at 4 green. Pretty sure 1 was a token and the other 3 were awarded.

Unknown

Id like to discuss how people using racist slurs merely get the post edited and the poster doesnt get a suspension or ban?

GrumpySmurf1002

Vhailorx wrote:

I dunno phantron, that seems like a bit much. You are correct that the game requires time, even for the top players (just look at colog's description of his play-schedule from december). But I find it hard to believe that the top veterans are much better at the game than the best transition players. The game just isn't that complicated. And because having more leveled characters gives a player more options, it is arguably easier for a the veterans to succeed than the the transitioners (who must work with sometimes sever roster limitations).

The game itself isn't complicated persay, but high end PvP is 100% about speed. (as far as game mechanics itself, not the meta like spending HP on repeated shielding). The longer you've been playing, the easier it is to manage the game elements (color denial, match-4/match-5 processing, optimal power launching) quickly.

I do think people underestimate the skill element of the game because of the large amount of luck that comes from cascading. It's very easy to take a little extra damage here and there from sub-optimal matching, and that damage adds up quickly when you're climbing, or making a sustained run in PvE.

Yes, the speed at which you process information and can play the game is independent of your roster, but it's still a skill, and one that the higher end veterans have more of than the average 3-month player.

Vhailorx

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

The game itself isn't complicated persay, but high end PvP is 100% about speed. (as far as game mechanics itself, not the meta like spending HP on repeated shielding). The longer you've been playing, the easier it is to manage the game elements (color denial, match-4/match-5 processing, optimal power launching) quickly.

I do think people underestimate the skill element of the game because of the large amount of luck that comes from cascading. It's very easy to take a little extra damage here and there from sub-optimal matching, and that damage adds up quickly when you're climbing, or making a sustained run in PvE.

Yes, the speed at which you process information and can play the game is independent of your roster, but it's still a skill, and one that the higher end veterans have more of than the average 3-month player.

Let's accept your statement as true for the sake of argument. It doesn't matter with respect to the OP's point about the structural rewards system in this game (whether you call it "rich get richer" or "fragmentation" or whatever). Suggesting that marginal skill advantages in making optimal matches and avoided excess damage account for the relative performance of veterans versus transitioners is absurd. It's like arguing that skill is the predominant factor in blackjack. Sure, you can improve your performance by knowing when to hit/stand/split, but in the system of the game itself is built in such a way that the player will eventually lose money (without counting cards or employing some other extrinsic advantage).

It's the systemic, structural problems with the design of the game's reward structure that I dislike (and that I think the OP was discussing). Nothing in this game matters more than having the right characters at the right levels. And there is no longer any way to get the right characters to the right levels as easily as it could be done earlier in the game's lifespan.

Unknown

Really, really, really... How this question can't be asked more often ?

Why it is just imposible to do 4 levels for Brackets ????


Is it really hard to do a bracket for ,an other for ,an other for ,an other for ???? And make a 2* rewards for the 1* bracket, 3* rewards for 2* brackets, 4* rewards for 3* bracket and ISO for 4* brackets ?

And over all HOW PEOPLE CAN APPROVE THIS ? In what to play against lv 94 when you are 166+ and 270 is funny ?

In what a new player should fight againts lv 270 ? This is the worst balancing system i've ever seen in history of video games, and in more than 1 year the game hasn't change yet, except some small features like "Choose Schedule Time".

And please, pleeeeeeeeease never say again this game is based on strategy ... because all in this game is only RANDOM, from A to Z. You have impressive you are doing strategics move but all is made by random move. Sometime it works and you are glad thinking you did the good choice and sometimes it doesn't works and people come to complain on this forum :>

I supported this game one year ago but when i'm seeing this lack of madness from devs this is really discouraging ... or maybe it's only laziness because they win already enough money to create something new. In this case i have nothing to do here anymore...

CaptainFreaky

Vhailorx wrote:

It's the systemic, structural problems with the design of the game's reward structure that I dislike (and that I think the OP was discussing). Nothing in this game matters more than having the right characters at the right levels. And there is no longer any way to get the right characters to the right levels as easily as it could be done earlier in the game's lifespan.

This.

I really think this is the fatal flaw in the game as of January 2015. The (PVP) game is moving to 4* for any kind of competitive standing or advancement, and there's really no way for someone without an already established 4* roster to realistically get to a decent 4* roster with the current game mechanics in play (MMR, Shield cooldown, Progression Scores, etc). And of course, covers also lead to ISO flow issues, but frankly, that's secondary at this point.

I have a solid set of 3*/166 characters (haven't leveled XForce yet due to still missing a few black/green covers) and had to fight tooth and claw to finish top 25 in Sticks and Stones to earn a Blue Hood cover that I have been missing for forever (400+ days in). And I had to spend hundreds of HP in shields to do this because my 3*Thor/3*Panther duo is no deterrent (no 3* roster is a deterrent to XFW). I won't be doing it again - I will go back to finishing top 100 and sometimes top 50 and make do with one 3* cover.

There is no realistic way for me to build my 4* roster with the current game mechanics, and I know I'm not the only one with this problem. Do I still play? Yes. Would I like to work hard to obtain a credible 4* roster? Yes. But, the game rules as constructed to day are so incredibly stacked against me that while I will continue to plug away, I know there won't be any progress on the 4* front.

I have a small (but hey, I'm optimistic) hope that we will see more structural changes to the game over the next 90 days that correct some of these things - not to make 4* cover collection easy, but to make it possible with a lot of time & some skill and not just the blind dumb luck of a token pull.

Rant over - back to Deadpool PVE & that Doom cover at the top of the progression awards.

Unknown

orionpeace wrote:

You'll have to excuse Stephen. He can be a bit of a prat on this issue.

Basically, think of it as your first marathon. You've been training for 3 months. When you show up at the starting line for the Boston Marathon, you won't just be competing against other first timers.

So, you can be the best of the newbies, but top place is reserved for those that have been in training longer.

The same is true here. If it weren't so, then there would be no benefit to developing a roster over time.

It should also be pointed out, and Stephen always forgets this part, it was once upon a time a bit easier to get 3* covers and there were much fewer Heroes, so it was easier to fully cover them.

The more Heroes that are added, the more difficult the transition from 2* to 3* will get.

Stephen never addresses these things because he is towards the top of the power curve and he wants to cherish it. Like Linus and his blanket. Don't take it away from him. It will only make him cry.

So, while you do have a valid concern, the 2* to 3* transition, putting lowbies all together isn't really a viable solution or the real issue. It just sucks when you can't reach that 3* you want.

I get it.

Good luck.

Lol. In fairness, I have posted in many, many threads the past 3 months now in support of changes being made to help transition players. I always give full disclosure that while these changes would not help me, I think MPQ needs to make the changes for the long-term health of the game. Pretty much, that and PVE refresh timers is all I talk about.

Feel free to search my posts for the last 3 months. I am almost certain there have not been many more vocal or eloquent on the subject of improving the transition process. (Why three months? That's when I started working on trying to help players trying to transition and realized how different the game was now. I've gone so far as to start an alt account to go through the transition process again, so I'll be able to give better advice in the future on the subject. So that's a lot of time I have spent between posting on these topics and playing on my alt account to work on this at the expense of playing and improving my regular account.)

This was my latest effort. http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21657&hilit=a+short+critique

rednailz

Clems wrote:

Really, really, really... How this question can't be asked more often ?

Why it is just imposible to do 4 levels for Brackets ????


Is it really hard to do a bracket for ,an other for ,an other for ,an other for ???? And make a 2* rewards for the 1* bracket, 3* rewards for 2* brackets, 4* rewards for 3* bracket and ISO for 4* brackets ?

And over all HOW PEOPLE CAN APPROVE THIS ? In what to play against lv 94 when you are 166+ and 270 is funny ?

In what a new player should fight againts lv 270 ? This is the worst balancing system i've ever seen in history of video games, and in more than 1 year the game hasn't change yet, except some small features like "Choose Schedule Time".

And please, pleeeeeeeeease never say again this game is based on strategy ... because all in this game is only RANDOM, from A to Z. You have impressive you are doing strategics move but all is made by random move. Sometime it works and you are glad thinking you did the good choice and sometimes it doesn't works and people come to complain on this forum :>

I supported this game one year ago but when i'm seeing this lack of madness from devs this is really discouraging ... or maybe it's only laziness because they win already enough money to create something new. In this case i have nothing to do here anymore...

A new player only fights against a 270 if they've won enough matches to earn thier way up to the 270 mark.

And yeah, some of my best battles have been when I'm taking on some one waaay higher than me fully boosted and shield right after. you get high rewards in points for it.

When you play COD do you get mad when a vetran player snipes you with the sniper rifle they earned becuase they've been playingmonths more than you?

Unknown

Although it is easy to pick apart the complaints of "MOAR DROPS, OR I QUIT", I think it is still worthwhile to discuss why some people get frustrated with the game.

When you play a multiplayer puzzle game, like match 3 or a tetris game, you assume both sides start from a balanced playing field.
D3 has created a game where there are asymmetries, to allow for interesting character combos, and they have also created an unlocking system where the more you grind, the more access you get.

A lot of players have sunk time into these unlocks/covers and may see this game as an mmorpg, where more time invested provide significant advantages, so boohoo noobs, spend time like I did if you want to compete with me for rewards.

However, there are other profitable games that have achieved a balanced collecting, even playing field every game AND a ranking system.
League of Legends (and other MOBAs like Heroes of the Storm) let you grind and gain currency to gain permanent access to characters.

However, they also have a free pool of characters every week, where a person skilled at the genre, starting from level 1 can compete pretty evenly with anybody else.
Sure, you still have to level up to increase your stats slightly, but their matchmaking and ranking system are still very competitive, without handouts to winners.
When you win, you still have season rankings to show off how pro you are.

Of course, it is naive to expect D3 to restructure their whole business model. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, is probably a smart business decision.... at least in the short term.


Some people want MPQ to be more like World of Warcraft, some people want it to be more like League of Legends, some people like it the way it is.
You will always have people making noise about the game, and they will not always have well thought-out posts.

I don't really blame them though, because in our squeaky-wheel-gets-the-oil culture, this is how issues get noticed.
Personally I am more in the League of Legends camp, because I still want to compete without crazy time commitments.



P.S. One thing that I do notice, that is blatantly unfair, is the vaulting mechanism. Especially the top tier characters 3*thor, black panther and daken, being denied to new players,
but veterans with free reign. D3 has not communicated a fair reason for this and deserves pitchforks. Fixing chars? ****, none of the nerfs before required vaulting.

Unknown

I think people also exaggerate the 270s, since I sure don't even see very many of those guys. It seems like people randomly get hit by someone who has a level 215 X Force and say 'P2W OMG' without even looking at that guy's stats and found that was a 3/2/5 X Force, who is considerably worse than an appropriately covered max 3*. In fact, it's pretty impressive a guy beat you with a 3/2/5 X Force because he's certainly not doing anything useful in that kind of configuration other than tanking. I usually at least check the cover status of my enemies during the game and there are a lot of X Force missing 1 cover in green, black, or both, and there are a lot of Thor without 5 in Power Surge. These characters are at best on par with the best 3*s and usually significantly worse. I remember a fight against a Thor without 5 in Power Surge and I didn't even notice until the Power Surge hits and I realize nothing meaningful happened.

Unknown

curlymustache wrote:

i can logically think.

i KNOW that i HAVE to be weaker than them. my question was: why do i fight AGAINST them?

can u answear me that? without that childish [NOPE] talk?

i am NOT entitled to win my matches. i DO favor a more balanced matchmaking, tho.
coming from fighting games (umvc3 is one of those) i like the idea of playerpoints to determine similar strenght.

can u engage this discussion by adressing my questions?

Mod edit: racial slur removed. Please avoid using racial slurs or other insulting language.

Full forum rules here.

-DayvBang

I did an apology post, but I cannot find it. *sigh* this why I should never use the phone to post lots of words.

I think I apologized for the manner it which I wrote my reply. If I didn't, I apologize, it seems really stupid after getting a nap.

Secondly, your first post was phrased around brackets, not MMR, which are two issues. So I did address what you were wrote about, just not what you intended to write about evidently.

Lastly, you'll have to excuse me. I guess I just get tired of the same issues over and over, which is my problem not yours, and I should not aim it towards you.

P.S. There are lots of threads on MMR (as well as tanking) that would answer your questions. I am; however, to lazy to pull up those links for you.

Unknown

Kriegerbot wrote:

P.S. One thing that I do notice, that is blatantly unfair, is the vaulting mechanism. Especially the top tier characters 3*thor, black panther and daken, being denied to new players,
but veterans with free reign. D3 has not communicated a fair reason for this and deserves pitchforks. Fixing chars? ****, none of the nerfs before required vaulting.

Vaulted characters should not be playable in at least some format. They can simply have a seasons format where you can only play with whoever is in the season plus an eternal format where everyone is fair game. It's not like there's significant overhead for adding extra events since it's all administered electronically, and if the reward structure is setup correctly, you shouldn't have to play both formats. Ideally the reward for the two format should cater to the players of that format. I imagine the seasons format will be catered more for newcomers since all you have to do is vault X Force to even out the playing field considerably, while the eternal format obviously still favors the guys who have everything. Not sure how the reward structure will look like but I'm not paid to figure this stuff out.

simonsez

EpicBeastmode wrote:

Id like to discuss how people using racist slurs merely get the post edited and the poster doesnt get a suspension or ban?

I totally disagree with the OP's premise, but I've gotta defend him on this. That word may have been co-opted of late, but the original meaning of it isn't racial at all, and the context of his remark has nothing to do with race either. Kinda like how people seem to think the word "niggardly" is racist now too...

rednailz

Phantron wrote:

I think people also exaggerate the 270s, since I sure don't even see very many of those guys. It seems like people randomly get hit by someone who has a level 215 X Force and say 'P2W OMG' without even looking at that guy's stats and found that was a 3/2/5 X Force, who is considerably worse than an appropriately covered max 3*. In fact, it's pretty impressive a guy beat you with a 3/2/5 X Force because he's certainly not doing anything useful in that kind of configuration other than tanking. I usually at least check the cover status of my enemies during the game and there are a lot of X Force missing 1 cover in green, black, or both, and there are a lot of Thor without 5 in Power Surge. These characters are at best on par with the best 3*s and usually significantly worse. I remember a fight against a Thor without 5 in Power Surge and I didn't even notice until the Power Surge hits and I realize nothing meaningful happened.

I agree and disagree. I never get turned off by a possible victim with a high level xforce, I check to see thier covers first to see if it's a good build. If you're level 220 and are 2/3/5 (or the like), well, yum yum, thanks!

But i see plenty of 270s and it's happening at around the 500 pt mark now instead of the 700 pt mark. I can understand some frustrations from 2 - 3 transition players with the new goofy b.s. MMR. I seem to hit the 166 and 4 * wall much much earlier now then ever.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Kriegerbot wrote:

P.S. One thing that I do notice, that is blatantly unfair, is the vaulting mechanism. Especially the top tier characters 3*thor, black panther and daken, being denied to new players,
but veterans with free reign. D3 has not communicated a fair reason for this and deserves pitchforks. Fixing chars? ****, none of the nerfs before required vaulting.

Vaulted characters should not be playable in at least some format. They can simply have a seasons format where you can only play with whoever is in the season plus an eternal format where everyone is fair game. It's not like there's significant overhead for adding extra events since it's all administered electronically, and if the reward structure is setup correctly, you shouldn't have to play both formats. Ideally the reward for the two format should cater to the players of that format. I imagine the seasons format will be catered more for newcomers since all you have to do is vault X Force to even out the playing field considerably, while the eternal format obviously still favors the guys who have everything. Not sure how the reward structure will look like but I'm not paid to figure this stuff out.

I think vaulting needs to go. The reason given for vaulting is that it would be too confusing to players to have multiple packs to choose from. However, I do not see how non-forumite players getting any notice of the vaulting system is any less confusing for the majority of the player base. "If" they know how to look up in-game which characters are in the packs, they have no idea when or why the characters come and go from the packs. If they do not know how to look up in-game which characters are in the packs, they are probably frustrated that they never get the C Mags they have been trying to pull.

I also think there should be two sets of packs--one that can be purchased and one that can only be won. The one that can be won (like through progressive rewards or sub placement) should have better odds than the ones that can be purchased.