*** Luke Cage (Hero For Hire) ***

Unknown

5 red is a no-brainer for me, it saves your characters from so much damage all the time and lets you fight longer. No ordinary matchings get any damage through that red shield.

I have him at 544 now and I WAS going to build him 355 but then I realized that there aren't that many good yellow abilities out there and I often have more use for a powerful strike than healing X-force (which very often fails anyway). At best, that Cage yellow deals 7000 damage for 13 mana, at worst it deals 4500. That's not bad for 13 yellow so I think I'll go with 553 a while. Most of the time I use X-force black anyway over Cage's, so...when and if I get enough black to use Cage's ability, it'll be effecient enough on level 3.

Also, I sold my fifth black cover before the event ended, counting on getting another black from the alliance...but they failed miserably, so now I really don't have much of a choice anymore than to get 900 and go 553. And I think I'll be happy with that.

Unknown

Daige wrote:

5 red is a no-brainer for me, it saves your characters from so much damage all the time and lets you fight longer. No ordinary matchings get any damage through that red shield.

I have him at 544 now and I WAS going to build him 355 but then I realized that there aren't that many good yellow abilities out there and I often have more use for a powerful strike than healing X-force (which very often fails anyway). At best, that Cage yellow deals 7000 damage for 13 mana, at worst it deals 4500. That's not bad for 13 yellow so I think I'll go with 553 a while. Most of the time I use X-force black anyway over Cage's, so...when and if I get enough black to use Cage's ability, it'll be effecient enough on level 3.

Also, I sold my fifth black cover before the event ended, counting on getting another black from the alliance...but they failed miserably, so now I really don't have much of a choice anymore than to get 900 and go 553. And I think I'll be happy with that.

I still think 553 is the way to go, even with Iron Fist oppressing his way through the 3 star range.

3 black isn't the best outlet for all the black that IF will generate, but it is still sufficient, and his yellow and red are just too good to not have maxed.

PeterGibbons316

dkffiv wrote:

Honestly the only time I consider using him is with MMags and Mystique on ridiculous nodes. I feel he has a better AP dump for black than Mystique (since all the purple is going to mags anyway and I can easily store up 20+ black) but I'm wondering how 5 red vs 5 black will affect keeping the squishies alive long enough to get the infinity combo rolling. Mine is currently 4/5/4, moving him to 5/5/3 once the rewards go out and then I'll have 2 black available for 5/3/5.

I also use him with Mystigue/Mags, and 5/3/5 is clearly the best build if you are ONLY using him for this. But if you ever use him in PvP 5/5/3 is the way to go. Additionally, only have 3 black still works in PvE, just takes a little bit longer is all.

simonsez

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

I also use him with Mystigue/Mags, and 5/3/5 is clearly the best build if you are ONLY using him for this. But if you ever use him in PvP 5/5/3 is the way to go. Additionally, only have 3 black still works in PvE, just takes a little bit longer is all.

You're also losing the stun with 3 black, which can be crucial to keeping Magstique going...

atomzed

In the end, I decided to opt for 553. Since I really like the protect tile, which has been very useful in survival rounds.

Thanks for all the lively discussion!

Trisul

So if I'm understanding the 535 vs 553 debate correctly, it seems to me that 5 red is mainly useful for:
1. PvE sustainability (for doing things like clearing six times per node)
2. PvP pushing
3. PvP defense

In reverse order:
3. PvP pushing seems the least important argument since you can push with any decent 166+ team.
2. Cage unfortunately still seems outclassed on defense by the standard XF/GT team, but if you don't have both 4*s I'd say this is probably the best reason to go 553. Combos well with annoying defensive characters like Iron Fist, Loki, Hood.
1. PvE sustainability is also a pretty compelling reason for 5 red if you are a super grinder, though some will argue that it's better to focus on offense for clear speed. The less grindy PvE players will probably stick with XF/GT, Sexmagnet, or Winfinite.

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

I also use him with Mystigue/Mags, and 5/3/5 is clearly the best build if you are ONLY using him for this. But if you ever use him in PvP 5/5/3 is the way to go. Additionally, only have 3 black still works in PvE, just takes a little bit longer is all.

You're also losing the stun with 3 black, which can be crucial to keeping Magstique going...

I was on the 5/5/3 bandwagon but after seeing NP crunch the numbers, I do think 5/3/5 is the way to go. Assuming the AI always matches only the colors it needs, that averages to be 210 match damage (70 per tile) So level 5 is overkill, and in PvP even when boosted he's going to be blocking almost all of the match damage at lvl 3 anyway, the only time having it at level 5 may matter is when he isn't boosted and you are using him in PvE and you have a better black outlet, then yes 5/5/3 is better, but that doesn't matter. Because face it, if X-force and Thor aren't locked out you only need his yellow at 5, the black and red go to X-Force or 4hor.

Offense and speed are what matter in this game, if it was defense you would have Captain America 5/3/5. To me Cage is there to reduce match damage to all but nothing, and have 2 lethal offensive skills to bail me out. Why don't you see more 5/3/5 or 5/5/3 C.Mags? Becaus as good as his defensive tiles are, his offensive skills will bail you out more often.

I don't like to not max passive's, but sometimes they just need to do enough, not the whole kit and kaboodle.

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

I was on the 5/5/3 bandwagon but after seeing NP crunch the numbers, I do think 5/3/5 is the way to go. Assuming the AI always matches only the colors it needs, that averages to be 210 match damage (70 per tile) So level 5 is overkill

... unless you're using Magstique vs overbuffed characters in PvE, which I still maintain is the only place where it makes sense to use Cage (except to climb vs weak teams in PvP)

Phaserhawk

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I was on the 5/5/3 bandwagon but after seeing NP crunch the numbers, I do think 5/3/5 is the way to go. Assuming the AI always matches only the colors it needs, that averages to be 210 match damage (70 per tile) So level 5 is overkill

... unless you're using Magstique vs overbuffed characters in PvE, which I still maintain is the only place where it makes sense to use Cage (except to climb vs weak teams in PvP)

I'm just going from my experience with C.Mags. After the rebalance mine was 5/5/3. I played him a lot to get the new feel and out of 100 matches, his yellow saved me exactly once from dying where had I been 3/5/5 I would have lost. But I either lost either the match or 1 or more characters 13 times because my blue was not maxed and had it been, I could have ended the match right away. To me Cage is the same thing. The free defense is awesome, but having his black maxed is going to keep me from losing a match or a character more often than his shield.

dkffiv

Phaserhawk wrote:

I'm just going from my experience with C.Mags. After the rebalance mine was 5/5/3. I played him a lot to get the new feel and out of 100 matches, his yellow saved me exactly once from dying where had I been 3/5/5 I would have lost. But I either lost either the match or 1 or more characters 13 times because my blue was not maxed and had it been, I could have ended the match right away. To me Cage is the same thing. The free defense is awesome, but having his black maxed is going to keep me from losing a match or a character more often than his shield.

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

My Cage has been 4 black for a while and a few times my winfinity started to stall out and the black stun allowed me to make a free match to keep the combo going. I'm just wondering if 3 red is enough to keep a 395 Patch Daken Blade node busy while I gather the AP to get the combo rolling.

Trisul

dkffiv wrote:

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

Mag 5 red is a 65%-ish damage increase over 3 red. I'd classify that as more than a 'minor' upgrade.

Phaserhawk

dkffiv wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

I'm just going from my experience with C.Mags. After the rebalance mine was 5/5/3. I played him a lot to get the new feel and out of 100 matches, his yellow saved me exactly once from dying where had I been 3/5/5 I would have lost. But I either lost either the match or 1 or more characters 13 times because my blue was not maxed and had it been, I could have ended the match right away. To me Cage is the same thing. The free defense is awesome, but having his black maxed is going to keep me from losing a match or a character more often than his shield.

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

My Cage has been 4 black for a while and a few times my winfinity started to stall out and the black stun allowed me to make a free match to keep the combo going. I'm just wondering if 3 red is enough to keep a 395 Patch Daken Blade node busy while I gather the AP to get the combo rolling.

Yeah, I do think about switching to 5/3/5 C.Mags every once in awhile but I'd rather have the extra 1K damage on his red rather than the overkill damage protection but I do see your point. If C.Mags or Cage had Squirrel Girl type defensive tiles where they start to negate a lot of skill damage, then I do see some arguements for a defensive build, but I'm viewing defensive tiles as damage reduction not damage prevention, I think people get too caught up in preventing as much damage as possible, when most of the time a strong offense is going to win out. If you're looking to prevent skill damage, then you want Colossuss as he halves all skill damage, but I think with match damage if you can reduce at least half of it, you doubled your playing time, in theory.

Phaserhawk

Trisul wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

Mag 5 red is a 65%-ish damage increase over 3 red. I'd classify that as more than a 'minor' upgrade.

yeah, people fail to realize how good that red is when C.Mags is boosted, I've nailed guys for 3-4K damage with that skill.

dkffiv

Trisul wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

Mag 5 red is a 65%-ish damage increase over 3 red. I'd classify that as more than a 'minor' upgrade.

I mostly use cmag in PvE and +1k damage is pretty minor when targets have 15k+ hp. Red isn't a priority color and when I do use it it's mostly to generate cascades and to make surgical strike more effective. Even with xforce spam it's hard to setup enough tu tiles for a strong second polarizing.

Phaserhawk

dkffiv wrote:

Trisul wrote:

dkffiv wrote:

I prefer 5/3/5 cmags because I find the damage bump on red to be minor and you are unlikely to get mileage out of it on repeat casting. PvE wise 5 yellow has saved me several times from the CD tile destruction.

Mag 5 red is a 65%-ish damage increase over 3 red. I'd classify that as more than a 'minor' upgrade.

I mostly use cmag in PvE and +1k damage is pretty minor when targets have 15k+ hp. Red isn't a priority color and when I do use it it's mostly to generate cascades and to make surgical strike more effective. Even with xforce spam it's hard to setup enough tu tiles for a strong second polarizing.

Which your arguement about not liking red is also the same reason not to go yellow, if I'm using X-Force, why do I want to create tiles that are going to get destroyed anyway? I'd rather have the extra damage, then the defensive tiles that are going to get destroyed anyawy.

Unknown

Magneto's red is generally used to enable a bigger combo in the context of PvE and once you get your combo going (usually involving X Force in some way) the damage done by his red is generally irrelevent compared to what X Force is about to do. On the other hand his yellow is very useful if we're making MPQ the movie as you'd always see Magneto show up with a Coercive Field that took out a Sleight of Hand that's about to down your entire team or whatever. Since our playing experience probably does not resemble MPQ the movie, you're likely to get more mileage out of red, but the damage on red really doesn't matter that much unless you're using Magneto as your primary damage dealer, which he shouldn't be because he's an amazing combo person and once his combos get going the game is over anyway.

Unknown

My LC is still 3/2/3, but I decided to check what the experts have to say about his various builds. I haven't used him myself since I am low on ISO and is under-covered, but isn't his black too expensive for what it does? I mean, if you want to be certain that his black will deal the 4300 damage you can't risk putting his tile out there and then hope you get more black. Doesn't this fact turn his black into a 12AP cost ability that deals 1k+4.3k? And the stun of course which sometimes may be unimportant. Am I reading his ability correctly? IF deals the same damage with his passive in 10-12 turns and it doesn't cost you AP. For the same cost, BP deals 11K damage spread out to all enemies and if you have the yellow AP, he deals close to 12.5K.

Phaserhawk

Narkon wrote:

My LC is still 3/2/3, but I decided to check what the experts have to say about his various builds. I haven't used him myself since I am low on ISO and is under-covered, but isn't his black too expensive for what it does? I mean, if you want to be certain that his black will deal the 4300 damage you can't risk putting his tile out there and then hope you get more black. Doesn't this fact turn his black into a 12AP cost ability that deals 1k+4.3k? And the stun of course which sometimes may be unimportant. Am I reading his ability correctly? IF deals the same damage with his passive in 10-12 turns and it doesn't cost you AP. For the same cost, BP deals 11K damage spread out to all enemies and if you have the yellow AP, he deals close to 12.5K.

As you can see, it's boiled down to 2 builds. 5/5/3 and 5/3/5.

His yellow is really good and in PvE or PvP it's going to hit hard.
You are correct Cage's black at first cost is lackluster, but on second cast with the CD tile out it hits pretty hard.
Red is awesome, free defense is never a bad thing.

The debates you are seeing, is the question, does maxing his red save you more damage or would maxing black thereby downing a character sooner save you more damage?

IMO I think both are correct.

If you are a begning player, starting to transition from 2* to 3* I think 5/3/5 is better for you. Once you begin to establish 3*'s you need to take stock. If you have someone like Black Panther then 5/5/3 Cage is probably going to work better for you, but if you have a full 3* and going to 4*, I think a 5/3/5 Cage works better more so because you have the depth to not need his shield, but also you can already win so quick with 4hor and X-Force, that the damage prevention is cute, but raw damage serves better.

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

To me Cage is the same thing. The free defense is awesome, but having his black maxed is going to keep me from losing a match or a character more often than his shield.

I'm arguing yellow3, not black3. Your argument is probably the same, but I just wanted to clarify, since I think black5 is essential.

NorthernPolarity

Narkon wrote:

My LC is still 3/2/3, but I decided to check what the experts have to say about his various builds. I haven't used him myself since I am low on ISO and is under-covered, but isn't his black too expensive for what it does? I mean, if you want to be certain that his black will deal the 4300 damage you can't risk putting his tile out there and then hope you get more black. Doesn't this fact turn his black into a 12AP cost ability that deals 1k+4.3k? And the stun of course which sometimes may be unimportant. Am I reading his ability correctly? IF deals the same damage with his passive in 10-12 turns and it doesn't cost you AP. For the same cost, BP deals 11K damage spread out to all enemies and if you have the yellow AP, he deals close to 12.5K.

The thing is that you're comparing Cage's black to literally two of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. By that logic, Fireball is a bad ability because Surgical Strike deals 11k damage for 12 AP, and Surge / Smite deals infinite amounts of damage for 10 red and 9 blue. If you compare Cage's black to the entire spectrum of black abilities (Inferno, Summon Demons, so on and so forth), he ranks favorably compared to most of them in terms of efficiency.

One more strike against red is that it's complete overkill in any situation that involves him major boosted, such as this PvP. Since match damage is only 240 damage anyways, 3 red basically negates everything already, so those two extra levels do literally nothing for you. Look earlier about my analysis regarding heroics, in which case 5/3/5 is a complete no brainer. 5/5/3 is viable if you use him unboosted in PvP with XF specifically, but eh.