Poll on Single Map PvE as requested by Hi-Fi

Unknown

Voted all of them.

Also terrible is having to use like 2 or 3 healthpacks after one node.

Unknown

JessyC01 wrote:

Voted all of them.

Also terrible is having to use like 2 or 3 healthpacks after one node.

I think it's okay, because everybody has to do that. There's only one functioning team in the PVE, and that's BP, GSBW, and Wolverine. The only variable is whether your are fully leveled. So the guy with four level 266 characters and every maxed is only slightly better off than I am, with a 166 GSBW and a 101 BP that I've leveled multiple times since the event began. Colossus might do okay, but since Wolverine is the only accelerated character available, it's those three I listed. So we've all got three characters, and we all get slaughtered on the hard nodes, and we all run out of healing around the same time. If some players didn't have to deal with Juggernaut, it would be unfair, but I think since we're all dealing with the same ridiculous battle conditions, it evens out.

Unknown

stephen43084 wrote:

If your going to have a limited roster, could you guve us someone for CD nodes? OBW, Shulkie, Falcon, 2* or 3* cap, i.e. any one.

Dear god yes.

Take the Goldilocks node. Every good character in this PvE is a little on the slow side - BP is strong, but not fast, MNMags is weak and slow, GSBW is slow, Colossus is slow, Wolverine is slow... And nobody can deal with countdowns. Sooner or later, a threaten is gonna slip through, and once it does, not only do you have to deal with headbutt and a constant AP drain, but they do like 800 points per match-3.

I dunno. This event sucks **** anyways. I'm just not going to bother.

Unknown

Being able to deal with CDs doesn't mean you always need to have one of the best anti CD characters like Captain America or Falcon, or even OBW. GSBW can dig out a lot of CDs with a Deceptive Tactics and while that's on the expensive side, it's the same initial cost as Star Spangled Avenger/Peacemaker and hopefully you only have to use it once anyway because it does set up a lot of other moves. I think the CD issue is more because of scaling. Goons are designed to be able to get their CD moves off but they're not supposed to do crazy damage in general unless it's a Muscle. Rocket hits hard but has a 6 turn CD, and even Flamethrower has 4 (though it's definitely better than Rocket). I think goons past around level 50 should gain around 1/2 to 3/4 of what they currently gain in match damage/ability damage.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Being able to deal with CDs doesn't mean you always need to have one of the best anti CD characters like Captain America or Falcon, or even OBW. GSBW can dig out a lot of CDs with a Deceptive Tactics and while that's on the expensive side, it's the same initial cost as Star Spangled Avenger/Peacemaker and hopefully you only have to use it once anyway because it does set up a lot of other moves. I think the CD issue is more because of scaling. Goons are designed to be able to get their CD moves off but they're not supposed to do crazy damage in general unless it's a Muscle. Rocket hits hard but has a 6 turn CD, and even Flamethrower has 4 (though it's definitely better than Rocket). I think goons past around level 50 should gain around 1/2 to 3/4 of what they currently gain in match damage/ability damage.

Except that it's not a given that you can make a match-4 in the right direction anyways, thanks to teamup tiles. And no, you cannot create the match with Threaten.

homeinvasion

Sorry for the long post, this is a blow by blow of my last clear through jugs heroic. I figure you should quantify before analysis.
The way you read it is my matches, my abilities, their matches, their abilities marked with (a) for ability.
I counted 4 and 5 matches as 2 matches as it is roughly that much AP generation.

so this means:
2 1a 1 1a (I had 2 matches then 1 ability, they had 1 match then 1 ability)
4 1a 1 (I had 4 matches then 1 ability, they had 1 match)

I skipped the first node as it was basically inconsequential.

They 66 Jugs/ Pyro/ Lieutenant
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
2 _ 0 _ 2 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 4 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 6 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 3 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 15 _ 11a
1 _ 1a _ 3 _ 4a
1 _ 1a _ 7 _ 3a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
I win with rage of the panther

They level 147 bullseye/ leiutenant/ Yelana
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134 3 X hp used all full health

4 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
4 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 1a
1 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 3a _ 2 _ 1a
5 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
3 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
2 _ 0 _ 0 _ 0
I win with match

They level 159 soldier/ leiutenant/ Yelana
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134 wolv and mags slightly low

4 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 4 _ 1a
4 _ 0 _ 5 _ 4a
11 _ 4a _ 1 _ 0
3 _ 1a _ 0 _ 0
Win with Rage of the panther, need 3 health pack

They level 111 Jugs/ leiutenant/ Pyro use 3 health pack, all team on full
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

5 _ 0 _ 4 _ 0
2 _ 1a _ 4 _ 1a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
4 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 2a _ 5 _ 2a
3 _ 0 _ 2 _ 4a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 0 _ 0 _ 0
win with match damge, mags dead, need 3 health packs

They 91 jugs/ pyro/ grenadier
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 3 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
3 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
Easy win, wolv on half/ BP 3/4

they 92 Jugs/ Muscle/ hood
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

4 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
3 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
6 _ 2a _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 4a
2 _ 1a _ 0 _ 0

Rage of the panther win BP on half

They 123 Jugs/ Daken/ Ares
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134 Use last HP on BP, team full

2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 1a
3 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
2 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
6 _ 2a _ 1 _ 1a
3 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
7 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0

Win with feral claw, need 3 health packs -buy 5 pack of health

They 165 Moonstone/ Daken/ Ares
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134 Use 3 HP full health

3 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 3 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 3 _ 0
4 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 1a _ 3 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
13 _ 2a _ 1 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 1a
14 _ 2a _ 0 _ 0

win with match damage, need 3 health pack

They 182 Bullseye/ Daken/ Moonstone -buy 5 pack of health-Use 3 HP full health
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 3 _ 1a
1 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0 Rage
3 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 2 _ 2a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 4 _ 1a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
2 _ 1a _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
win with world rupture team up + BP yellow

They 222 Leiutenant/ daken/ soldier
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134 Use 2 health pack full health

11 _ 0 _ 3 _ 0
2 _ 1a _ 3 _ 0
8 _ 2a _ 1 _ 0
3 _ 0 _ 1 _ 3a
8 _ 3a _ 1 _ 0
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 2a _ 0 _ 0
Win with rage of the panther

This was my third clear but first time clearing the last two nodes. I always thought the Ai got way more matches but looking at it, it was probably fair or a little in my favor. My main conclusion from this is that the most unfair is when the AI has a mix of goons and characters, because their ability use is way ahead of the curve. If AP steal is the best mechanic in the game then it is clearly in the AI's favor. There is no way I was going to win that last node without that ridiculous luck first turn.

homeinvasion

Stuff like this is most worrying

1 _ 0 _ 15 _ 11a

I get 1 match, AI gets 15 matches and 11 ability. I don't think that has ever happened to me.

As an update I just tried my fourth clear, no health packs till the 3rd last node, not even last node, 3rd last! (ares, moonstone/ daken), tried 6 times with max level best possible team, so bought 3 X 5 pack of health, didn't even manage to kill one AI character in 6 games. Tinykitty this.

Unknown

There's a lot of luck involved in the broken combos the AI use though I think people underestimate how complicated the game is. I have a pretty decent winning record against the essential nodes and I spend a lot of time thinking about each move because all it takes is one bad move to get everyone killed. Sure sometimes you still lose horribly no matter what you do but it's not just all luck either. For example sometimes it's worth it to setup a match 4 for the AI if one of those tile is a Threaten that you cannot get otherwise. In the Jugg + Pyro + Grenadier example, a lot of time you need to leave the green matches available so that they can pop a Rocket/Flamethrower and then immediately match it for a minus 7 green AP which goes a long way at neutralizing their insane AP advantage. There's no point to try to deny green in that fight because they get 4 green AP for free, so it's a reasonable risk to leave green open for the AI if they match away their own Rocket/Flamethrower even half of the time because you sure can't take too many Rocket/Flamethrower at all.

homeinvasion

homeinvasion wrote:

They level 111 Jugs/ leiutenant/ Pyro
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

5 _ 0 _ 4 _ 0
2 _ 1a _ 4 _ 1a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
4 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 2a _ 5 _ 2a
3 _ 0 _ 2 _ 4a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 0 _ 0 _ 0

look at this one for example, I have clearly far more AP gain from matches but only a third as many ability uses

Unknown

homeinvasion wrote:

homeinvasion wrote:

They level 111 Jugs/ leiutenant/ Pyro
me BP is 250/ Wolv 134/ mags 134

5 _ 0 _ 4 _ 0
2 _ 1a _ 4 _ 1a
2 _ 0 _ 1 _ 2a
4 _ 1a _ 1 _ 1a
1 _ 2a _ 5 _ 2a
3 _ 0 _ 2 _ 4a
1 _ 0 _ 1 _ 1a
4 _ 0 _ 0 _ 0

look at this one for example, I have clearly far more AP gain from matches but only a third as many ability uses

Of course they'd have far more ability uses when they get 4 green AP to fuel the Unstoppable Crashes. Are you only counting the AP gained by matches? It's hard to see how you can possibly stay ahead of the AI in AP gained just from their 4 green/turn from the 2 goons, let alone any additional AP gained by the Unstoppable Crashes.

homeinvasion

so true that if goons were usable by players they would instantly be the best characters in the game

yogi_

To be honest, I haven't read this thread and unsure if it's been said elsewhere and I am glad we're being asked, but if the devs have to actually ask our opinions on what we don't like about it, when the game has been out for a year and they can't have read or cared enough to act on the multiple old threads about it and clearly don't play it (because even a novice will be able to pick out immediate flaws that could get adjusted), well...

dreamwanderings

Yogi beat me to it. To me, the most unbearable aspect of the Juggernaut Heroic PVE is how loudly it screams at us that nobody at D3 is MPQ player, and even though this may seem just psychological, the option should be in the poll's answer list.
The efforts in listening to the concerns of the players and adressing them lately are undeniable and much, much appreciated. But it is scary to consider devs make decisions without knowing in their experience what makes it fun.

I'd like to answer Hi-Fi's question with one of my own, and I am sincerely interested in the answer (maybe the question should be submitted in the monthly Q&A) :

What, in the devs' minds, makes this weeks Juggernaut Heroic PVE fun to play ?

Unknown

dreamwanderings wrote:

What, in the devs' minds, makes this weeks Juggernaut Heroic PVE fun to play ?

Probably new character? I bet if there weren't new characters involved, participation would not be nearly as high, eg maybe a quarter of the current matches.

Unknown

Everything that's wrong with MPQ in a single event.

First let me say that D3 really needs to listen to user comments and not just look at numbers because in this case the numbers do in fact lie if there's any positive to take from heroics like juggs. Firstly the limited roster is a neat idea but there are several problems with it starting with only being able to use 5% of your entire roster. With no healing and no character rotation these events start off terribly before you hit the first node.

Now all these fights with enemies who sneeze 4-6k damage is just a joke. Scaling should be remodeled for the fact that a lvl 40 scaled to 300 is going to be terribly broken, let alone the multiplicative factor making it much much more broken.

But down to basics ignore any mechanics.

These events are not fun
They're monotonous
Broken mechanics at every turn with almost 0 reward worth the effort
A challenge is something you do once like the gauntlet. Heroics really gotta go before they make people quit. If you step back and realize that there are few aspects of the game that are actually enjoyable then you're more likely to quit and give your money to another game.

Listen to the suggestions in the thread. We like variety and frequent rewards albeit small. Doing the same dozen nodes every 2 hours for the same map is completely and pathetically 'lame'

D3 had better get its act together and start changing the aspects of the game that aren't fun. Listen to your players or they soon won't be your players

Apologize

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

There's a lot of luck involved in the broken combos the AI use though I think people underestimate how complicated the game is. I have a pretty decent winning record against the essential nodes and I spend a lot of time thinking about each move because all it takes is one bad move to get everyone killed. Sure sometimes you still lose horribly no matter what you do but it's not just all luck either. For example sometimes it's worth it to setup a match 4 for the AI if one of those tile is a Threaten that you cannot get otherwise. In the Jugg + Pyro + Grenadier example, a lot of time you need to leave the green matches available so that they can pop a Rocket/Flamethrower and then immediately match it for a minus 7 green AP which goes a long way at neutralizing their insane AP advantage. There's no point to try to deny green in that fight because they get 4 green AP for free, so it's a reasonable risk to leave green open for the AI if they match away their own Rocket/Flamethrower even half of the time because you sure can't take too many Rocket/Flamethrower at all.

There's only so much you can do when the board keeps giving you only 1 match, and then gives the AI a fresh board

ScrubJay

I'm tired of facing Muscles, they are extremely overpowered for their level and there's always at least one node with one of them as a feeder for someone. They need their HP and strike tiles halved and they'd still be better than any of the dark avengers for their level.

dreamwanderings

daibar wrote:

dreamwanderings wrote:

What, in the devs' minds, makes this weeks Juggernaut Heroic PVE fun to play ?

Probably new character? I bet if there weren't new characters involved, participation would not be nearly as high, eg maybe a quarter of the current matches.

That's why I'd love to have an answer to that question, because this could be one and might be it.
And if it were, then it would illustrate how development and planification end up replacing customer experience in the devs' concerns : the new hero may be the function of the PVE, but definitely not the source of pleasure when playing it.
It would be a rather common mistake but one I wouldn't expect from a small company.

cmj6432

New stories need to be done. i am tired of the same old ones.

D3P2K5

One serious thing that really needs to be fixed above all besides ridiculous scaling are goons collecting AP at the same time as active tile moving characters on their team. This is double dipping a seriously leaves the player at a disadvantage. My suggestion to fix this is to not allow goons to collect AP while its team has an active tile moving character. Once all these active characters are downed then goons should begin collecting AP as they usually would. This would make the game much more fair.