All Alliances Increasing To 20 Member Slots

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]Hi,

We understand that players who spent Hero Points to expand their Alliance within the last week may be feeling upset. If you fall into this category, please send Customer Service a ticket and we'll look into Hero Point compensation: https://d3publisherofamerica.zendesk.co ... quests/new

We do feel though, that players who spent Hero Points in the past to expand their Alliances have reaped substantial benefits for doing so (increased Iso, covers, rewards, etc.) that compensate for the Hero Points spent to expand.

Thanks for your understanding as we move forward with the Alliance expansion.

You claim we've reaped the rewards many times over BUT any new free alliance will reap those exact SAME rewards at zero cost making it all a net profit. When I buy stock, I expect it to appreciate over time. I do NOT expect it to depreciate to a point where everyone can opt in where my shares fall below bottom book.

It doesn't matter how you word it or how you try to "lawyer" it, the end result is the same. Those of us who expended the 20k HP are basically SOL. Even being a top 10 alliance, you have a clue as to how long it takes to rebuild that? Other than the X-men (props) not too many rank first EVERY SINGLE EVENT to collect 2k reward. That's still 10 events so in essence, a full season. Please don't bring up the 5000th Ares I've sold because alliance or no alliance, everyone gains the HP from a low end character that's way over dropped.

I'm sorry but "understanding" isn't something I'm feeling overly generous with at the moment.

Unknown

this is bulltinykitty. it's spit in the face to anyone who spent HP on slots for their alliance, no matter if it was last week or six months ago.

Unknown

dearbluey wrote:

Paintsville wrote:

I realize I was extra snarky, but what do you expect to such a demeaning post as the one I originally replied to? So please don't try to make yourself out to be the voice of reason.

With that said, I think free alliance slots are a great idea and will be great for the game. It will make for great competition and may change the game as we know it.

My issue is that the way it is being handled. This isn't a price change to ISO the day after I bought some. In that case I still have what I paid for. An advantage over someone who didn't buy ISO. This is different. Heck, if they would have halved the price of a slot then I wouldn't be nearly as upset. I am not asking people to choose free roster slots or no free roster slots. I am asking for people to realize that a paid for advantage is being stripped, and to ask yourself how you would feel in that situation. The people who paid for roster slots should be compensated SOMETHING. I agree a full refund is too much. I believe good things should be done for everyone. But at least TRY to lessen the blow to people that will see the work they done means less cause the playing field is changed on a whim.

P.S. another reason I went off in the last post is that I am so tired of people throwing the word entitled around. Because I am vocal when I perceive being wronged doesn't make me seem entitled. I will most likely have a reason behind my statements. But don't get me wrong. This is not about free roster slots. This is about people showing no empathy whatsoever for people, no matter how great their intentions are.

Here's the thing, man. I usually do try to be the voice of reason. I try and empathize with people, but these forums have been getting more and more vocal and whiney with every little change made to the game. Are all the changes good? No, of course not, and everyone has their opinions on the matter of course (and I've put in my two cents elsewhere about certain changes not being ideal - for me, anyway), but as time goes on the more shouting and demanding of compensation for "investment" - be it time, money, effort, whatever - has worn me down to the point that today, right here, right now, I don't have a drop of empathy left for those that are here wanting compensation. Maybe that will change tomorrow, or next week, or whatever. I can't care all the time. I don't have superhuman stats in Empathy.

It's not the change. It's not that some people feel slighted by it. It's that they demand, demand, demand. Doesn't it make you tired, too?

Not saying you don't have a point, but personally I value fairness over keeping negativity off the boards. If we have to endure that extra bit of whine in order to achieve some semblance of fairness and to hear perspectives from all types of players, then so be it.

Unknown

arktos1971 wrote:

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

If this is not just one of D3s Halloween pranks, (still hoping it is), then I have a much better idea.

It cost what, about 20,000 Hp to build a 20 member alliance? Why not just send everyone 20k Hp?

I don't remember exactly but I think it's more than this.

2000 HP for the 20th spot, 1900 for the 19th and so on. But don't know when it starts exactly.

19500hp

Pwuz_

dearbluey wrote:

Here's the thing, man. I usually do try to be the voice of reason. I try and empathize with people, but these forums have been getting more and more vocal and whiney with every little change made to the game. Are all the changes good? No, of course not, and everyone has their opinions on the matter of course (and I've put in my two cents elsewhere about certain changes not being ideal - for me, anyway), but as time goes on the more shouting and demanding of compensation for "investment" - be it time, money, effort, whatever - has worn me down to the point that today, right here, right now, I don't have a drop of empathy left for those that are here wanting compensation. Maybe that will change tomorrow, or next week, or whatever. I can't care all the time. I don't have superhuman stats in Empathy.

It's not the change. It's not that some people feel slighted by it. It's that they demand, demand, demand. Doesn't it make you tired, too?

You're right in that respect. In many respects even. This game has changed a quite a bit over the past 8 months I've played, let alone the year it's been out. It's a new way that developers can make games being more dynamic and changing the game as they see fit based on that. It just feels like of the changes that had been made in the past, the developers have made a better more thought out effort to compensate players who put in the time, effort, and resources into an aspect of the game that changed.

This answer feels a bit more phoned in, especially for such an expensive game option to be made free. But as is illustrated in the comments here, Alliance costs are a very sticky situation to change at this point. Overall, I think this is a positive change for the game in the long & short term. I don't think there is a single solution that can be applied over all alliances either. Does the last remaining inactive commander of a 20 commander alliance who didn't actually spend any HP on Alliance slots deserve the same compensation as the single original commander of an alliance that built it up by themselves?

I think that D3 is likely looking at each ticket on an individual case by case basis. Perhaps they have a rough guideline by which they intend to compensate qualified commanders.

I anticipate D3 to make the right choice in each case. I also think that they realize a lot of the comments here are venting. How many player swore they would stop playing (or paying) MPQ when True Healing went into effect? Honestly I had (have) a lot more problems with True Healing than I do with All Alliances being 20 Member Alliances (can we get a shorter term for this?)

Unknown

dearbluey wrote:

Paintsville wrote:

I realize I was extra snarky, but what do you expect to such a demeaning post as the one I originally replied to? So please don't try to make yourself out to be the voice of reason.

With that said, I think free alliance slots are a great idea and will be great for the game. It will make for great competition and may change the game as we know it.

My issue is that the way it is being handled. This isn't a price change to ISO the day after I bought some. In that case I still have what I paid for. An advantage over someone who didn't buy ISO. This is different. Heck, if they would have halved the price of a slot then I wouldn't be nearly as upset. I am not asking people to choose free roster slots or no free roster slots. I am asking for people to realize that a paid for advantage is being stripped, and to ask yourself how you would feel in that situation. The people who paid for roster slots should be compensated SOMETHING. I agree a full refund is too much. I believe good things should be done for everyone. But at least TRY to lessen the blow to people that will see the work they done means less cause the playing field is changed on a whim.

P.S. another reason I went off in the last post is that I am so tired of people throwing the word entitled around. Because I am vocal when I perceive being wronged doesn't make me seem entitled. I will most likely have a reason behind my statements. But don't get me wrong. This is not about free roster slots. This is about people showing no empathy whatsoever for people, no matter how great their intentions are.

Here's the thing, man. I usually do try to be the voice of reason. I try and empathize with people, but these forums have been getting more and more vocal and whiney with every little change made to the game. Are all the changes good? No, of course not, and everyone has their opinions on the matter of course (and I've put in my two cents elsewhere about certain changes not being ideal - for me, anyway), but as time goes on the more shouting and demanding of compensation for "investment" - be it time, money, effort, whatever - has worn me down to the point that today, right here, right now, I don't have a drop of empathy left for those that are here wanting compensation. Maybe that will change tomorrow, or next week, or whatever. I can't care all the time. I don't have superhuman stats in Empathy.

It's not the change. It's not that some people feel slighted by it. It's that they demand, demand, demand. Doesn't it make you tired, too?

I agree. I tend to be a "complainer", but I do try to make it "righteous", if you get my drift. I agree that there are many time that people expect compensation for the smallest of things, or things that affected everyone equally. Server outages, missing a sale, buying before a sale, etc. These things people have to take with a grain of salt, because these things are normally out of the control of the people in charge. I completely get you on that.

I just feel that in this instance, a controlled move was made, and that even though it is a great change for the better, it is also a slap to the face to an albeit minority of the population.

I think we were both frustrated, and I apologize for being short with you.

Unknown

gobstopper wrote:

Not saying you don't have a point, but personally I value fairness over keeping negativity off the boards. If we have to endure that extra bit of whine in order to achieve some semblance of fairness and to hear perspectives from all types of players, then so be it.

What is "fair"? Again, it's something that is different depending on who you are and what your situation is. I'll give a few examples of how I see this, just to clarify my opinion. Bearing in mind that it is just that - my opinion.

1) I play PC games a lot. I like having a varied collection of different games that I can pick up and play when the mood strikes. As such, I've put some money into getting myself a library of games. You could say I've "invested" my money into this form of entertainment - but I take issue with that word, honestly. So I play these games, I enjoy them, I reap the benefits of having them at my leisure. I can even share them with family with the Steam Sharing program. Now, suddenly, I find out that sites like HumbleBundle, Indiegala and the like are offering fantastic package deals every week - pay what you want for a group of games (sometimes, even free ones! Free games!!) Even Steam itself has these awesome sales every half-year or so where games are up to 75% off or more. But...I've already paid for these games. I've had the benefit of playing them for months, at whatever price I paid for them. Who am I to begrudge the fact that others will now get them at a reduced price or free? That'd be a touch bitter of me, no?

2) I open a bank account. The bank is offering that if I put $50 in a month for three months, they'll credit my account $25 for signing up. That's pretty awesome, right? A free $25 for just having a bank account and putting money in that I'd be putting in anyway. Cool. However, four months down the track the bank changes their offer - open up a new bank account, put in just one deposit, and be credited $50. Why didn't I get that? That doesn't seem fair to me....right? Of course it does. I got what I got, at the time it was offered. A company, bank or otherwise, should not ever be expected to offer compensation for a future deal, change or special for those that had taken advantage of something prior.

3) MPQ alliances. The benefits are there. It's been said often enough in these forums that an alliance is pretty much required these days. You can get extra ISO, extra HP and extra covers - just for playing as you usually do. Sure, you might get a bit of pressure from alliance-mates to do better, but you're playing anyway, right? So those better alliance rewards come from larger, more active alliances. You put some coin (real or virtual) into expanding the alliance, and for several months you earn more than you had previously. Obviously it's not always a 1:1 return. This is NOT an investment. This is potentiality. This is something that could be, not something that is guaranteed. But we knew that, once we first started seeing alliance rewards, months ago.

While on that topic, let me put forth my opinion on why I think this is a good thing for even the bigger alliances.

Starting at the bottom, you're going to see a lot more 20-person alliances. A lot of the smaller alliances will merge into each other, most likely reducing the number of alliances by a quarter at the least. These alliances will shift and change and adjust and get a taste of higher rewards - even just a little higher, and the hook is set. They see that they performed a little better than they used to. So they try a little harder. Perform a little better. Get a few more rewards. Level up a few more characters. This is good for the lowbies.

This is also good for the mid-range. 10-15 person alliances suddenly find that their "investment" of HP into roster slots has paid off - the last 5 or 10 slots, the higher costing ones, are suddenly free and clear. This is an immediate benefit to them. They don't have to keep putting HP into the alliance, they can put it into covers and roster slots and health packs and shields. They improve. Their scores improve. They feel good.

Now, the top alliances. The ones that are in the top, oh 100 or so spots in events. They already have 20 members - or more! They are probably subbing in and out top scorers from their sister-alliances to place well. Where does this benefit them? Apart from the already mentioned fact that they have had a return of covers, ISO and HP (still, maybe not 1:1 but maybe it is, too - some of those covers are expensive), these alliances get a brand new resource to exploit - the rising dough of the lower and middle class MPQ citizens. These people are improving their rosters, expanding out, becoming better and higher scoring targets for the top alliances to pounce upon like a pack of ravenous squirrels. You'll see more people higher up the leaderboards, run into a more varied set of players than the ones you generally see, and crush them down into oblivion because you, you know, are godlike in your power and glory. Or something.

It's past midnight, and I'm feeling pumpkin-ish. I hope this was vaguely coherent.

Edit in here to reply to Paint: I could have been far more diplomatic earlier. Sorry it came out a bit too acidic. Thanks. We're all passionate about the game. Sometimes it just comes out wrong.

Unknown

As someone who's paid for 2 slots (9 and 10) in a 10 slot alliance, I don't feel particularly cheated. I mean, I do wish I got my HP back , and I understand people have spent more HP than me, but I think that people in T100 alliances don't really have anything to complain about. Someone earlier posted about investing a lot to try to get to their alliance to a T100 alliance, and I really feel for people (paid for 20 slots but never got to T100), but I think not everything can satisfy everyone.

Overall, I think D3 is making a (bold) move to do something to make the game more social and fun for everyone (in general) at their own expense (in revenue) to keep people playing, and I hope the fans on the forums can appreciate that. I also think that maybe a bit more notice than 3 days would have mitigated some of the rioting (say, an announcement at the beginning of season 7 that this would happen at the beginning of season 8?)

Just my personal opinions.

P.S. The reconciliation of Paintsville and dearbluey was quite touching. No sarcasm intended!

Unknown

The way I see it, your first two examples are for a product and a service. I agree that in those examples, you paid for them at the moment and that the agreed price may change in the future. Prices change and a merchant has no obligation to refund anything.

I guess I don't see alliance spots as a product purchased. I see it more as a membership. You paid for the privilege to have more roster spots in an alliance. Similar to having a golf membership will give you privileges that non members do not have because you paid for that right. So as I see it, this is similar to me paying said clubhouse for the right to be able to book a course time over non-members. Or the right to a discount at the bar/restaurant.

I did not pay for an entire 20 man alliance myself, but if I did, I would see it as paying D3 money for the privilege of having 20 members, and the perks that come with it. So just as I would be upset if some non-member took my scheduled time at the golf course, it upsets me that a previous paid for privilege is just revoked at the drop of hat, which then frustrates me that not many others, especially D3 sees it that way. With no thought of any compensation. While a golf club might not refund my money, I would most likely get a free dinner or a few drinks at the bar by way of apology.

Like I said before, I have reconciled myself to the fact that my view is in the minority, and I am cool with it. Nothing more to do except play on.

Unknown

dearbluey wrote:

gobstopper wrote:

Not saying you don't have a point, but personally I value fairness over keeping negativity off the boards. If we have to endure that extra bit of whine in order to achieve some semblance of fairness and to hear perspectives from all types of players, then so be it.

What is "fair"? Again, it's something that is different depending on who you are and what your situation is. I'll give a few examples of how I see this, just to clarify my opinion. Bearing in mind that it is just that - my opinion.

1) I play PC games a lot. I like having a varied collection of different games that I can pick up and play when the mood strikes. As such, I've put some money into getting myself a library of games. You could say I've "invested" my money into this form of entertainment - but I take issue with that word, honestly. So I play these games, I enjoy them, I reap the benefits of having them at my leisure. I can even share them with family with the Steam Sharing program. Now, suddenly, I find out that sites like HumbleBundle, Indiegala and the like are offering fantastic package deals every week - pay what you want for a group of games (sometimes, even free ones! Free games!!) Even Steam itself has these awesome sales every half-year or so where games are up to 75% off or more. But...I've already paid for these games. I've had the benefit of playing them for months, at whatever price I paid for them. Who am I to begrudge the fact that others will now get them at a reduced price or free? That'd be a touch bitter of me, no?

2) I open a bank account. The bank is offering that if I put $50 in a month for three months, they'll credit my account $25 for signing up. That's pretty awesome, right? A free $25 for just having a bank account and putting money in that I'd be putting in anyway. Cool. However, four months down the track the bank changes their offer - open up a new bank account, put in just one deposit, and be credited $50. Why didn't I get that? That doesn't seem fair to me....right? Of course it does. I got what I got, at the time it was offered. A company, bank or otherwise, should not ever be expected to offer compensation for a future deal, change or special for those that had taken advantage of something prior.

3) MPQ alliances. The benefits are there. It's been said often enough in these forums that an alliance is pretty much required these days. You can get extra ISO, extra HP and extra covers - just for playing as you usually do. Sure, you might get a bit of pressure from alliance-mates to do better, but you're playing anyway, right? So those better alliance rewards come from larger, more active alliances. You put some coin (real or virtual) into expanding the alliance, and for several months you earn more than you had previously. Obviously it's not always a 1:1 return. This is NOT an investment. This is potentiality. This is something that could be, not something that is guaranteed. But we knew that, once we first started seeing alliance rewards, months ago.

While on that topic, let me put forth my opinion on why I think this is a good thing for even the bigger alliances.

Starting at the bottom, you're going to see a lot more 20-person alliances. A lot of the smaller alliances will merge into each other, most likely reducing the number of alliances by a quarter at the least. These alliances will shift and change and adjust and get a taste of higher rewards - even just a little higher, and the hook is set. They see that they performed a little better than they used to. So they try a little harder. Perform a little better. Get a few more rewards. Level up a few more characters. This is good for the lowbies.

This is also good for the mid-range. 10-15 person alliances suddenly find that their "investment" of HP into roster slots has paid off - the last 5 or 10 slots, the higher costing ones, are suddenly free and clear. This is an immediate benefit to them. They don't have to keep putting HP into the alliance, they can put it into covers and roster slots and health packs and shields. They improve. Their scores improve. They feel good.

Now, the top alliances. The ones that are in the top, oh 100 or so spots in events. They already have 20 members - or more! They are probably subbing in and out top scorers from their sister-alliances to place well. Where does this benefit them? Apart from the already mentioned fact that they have had a return of covers, ISO and HP (still, maybe not 1:1 but maybe it is, too - some of those covers are expensive), these alliances get a brand new resource to exploit - the rising dough of the lower and middle class MPQ citizens. These people are improving their rosters, expanding out, becoming better and higher scoring targets for the top alliances to pounce upon like a pack of ravenous squirrels. You'll see more people higher up the leaderboards, run into a more varied set of players than the ones you generally see, and crush them down into oblivion because you, you know, are godlike in your power and glory. Or something.

It's past midnight, and I'm feeling pumpkin-ish. I hope this was vaguely coherent.

Edit in here to reply to Paint: I could have been far more diplomatic earlier. Sorry it came out a bit too acidic. Thanks. We're all passionate about the game. Sometimes it just comes out wrong.

No offence - but, yyy, what's your point?

Dartmaster01

Unfortunately, I think this is why they have been posting the MPQ stats. While most of these complaints are valid, these stats point out that people on the forum probably don't represent 1% of the player base. So no matter how long you've been playing or how much money you've spent, the more you can claim you're in one of these categories or ones like these, the more you must realize, you're the minority. Anyone complaining on this forum (including myself) are making connections between themselves and the game that just aren't there.

We are the ex-girlfriend that won't leave you alone!

IamTheDanger

Having had a few hours to think about it, (still hoping it's just a Halloween prank, but I doubt it), I can see it from the devs point of view. It's just that I feel as though they are saying "Hey all you guys that paid money, paid our salaries, supported us, and pretty much gave us jobs, we appreciate it sooo much, that we are giving free stuff to everyone. Everyone but you. Thanks again for all that money you gave us." It's like a complete lack of gratitude for players that made this game possible in the first place.

To me personally, I feel as though I've been taken advantage of. And I do Not like being taken advantage of. I can't help it, that's just how I feel.

Maybe my wife is right and I DO over think and over analyze things. Like when someone cuts in line in front of me. (totally unrelated, just a bit of personal info on my view of the world) When someone cuts in front of me, it's like that person is saying, (to me) "I know you were here first, but my time is more valuable than yours, and I'm more important than you, so I get to go first. No matter how long you've been waiting.)

Anyway, that's how I see it.


edit; ... just to be clear, I am not saying that I deserve, or even want, a complete refund for all the slots I've purchased. that was my choice to do so. what I am saying is that I feel as though the developers should show at least a little gratitude or some token of appreciation. something to let everyone that spent substantial amounts of money, [ I don't know what other people consider "substantial", but as for me, (I just added this up a bit earlier), I have spent $2,847.58 USD on this game, and that is just counting my main account. total for all 3 of mine, my brothers, and my wifes is just over $4k USD ) know how grateful they are. and not just "Thanks for your understanding", something to show that D3/Demiurge cares about the veteran players.

turul

Alliance slot buyers already had disadvantage over non-buying players
Alliance slot buyers probably had a developed roster, meaning alliance rewards were less worthy for them
Alliance slot buyers probably invested more HP on shields than alliance reward HP, for cover which is worth only for rest of alliance members.
Alliance slot buyers lost funds to directly improve a hero by buying additional cover instead of alliance slot.

Now competition makes the investment negative worthy.

To overcome this unfairness, i propose:
Give old alliance slot buyers 150% refund in HP, or 150% value of Ladythor / Fury / Blade covers

Unknown

Paintsville wrote:

The way I see it, your first two examples are for a product and a service. I agree that in those examples, you paid for them at the moment and that the agreed price may change in the future. Prices change and a merchant has no obligation to refund anything.

That revives painful memories

Unknown

Once again, as I said, whatever the change, it's never good to be seen (even by a minority) as a cheap stingy bloke. Especially when you are running a company.

This policy has been bad for months, and gave a poor image of MPQ and the devs.

They could experience for one week (Anniversary) that the entire community could be supportive if they were indeed generous (it was my highest spending week in my MPQ life and I am sure I am not the only one).

Looks like they do not learn the lesson. Too bad for them, too bad for us.

Oh well, I guess I will be fatalist again... And wait for better days.

thedude

I'm a f2p player and have not spent HP on expanding an alliance, so would like to think I am objective here.

You do not give stuff away to new customers that old, loyal customers have invested significant money or time in, unless you compensate them in some way. D3 have records of who has invested so there is no excuse.

HP refund plus a bonus HP/token/iso would be good, but probably never going to happen. Maybe D3 should give out some tokens instead? Anyone who has invested in an alliance probably will probably have a good roster, so d3 won't lose out too much, but players might get lucky and get one or two covers they need and not feel quite so ripped off.

Unknown

thedude wrote:

I'm a f2p player and have not spent HP on expanding an alliance, so would like to think I am objective here.

You do not give stuff away to new customers that old, loyal customers have invested significant money or time in, unless you compensate them in some way. D3 have records of who has invested so there is no excuse.

HP refund plus a bonus HP/token/iso would be good, but probably never going to happen. Maybe D3 should give out some tokens instead? Anyone who has invested in an alliance probably will probably have a good roster, so d3 won't lose out too much, but players might get lucky and get one or two covers they need and not feel quite so ripped off.

Thank you.

Dayv

The core problem here is that this is a huge giveaway to everyone *except* the strongest supporters of the game.

Everybody should feel like they're getting something out of this. What would the reaction have been like if instead of "all incomplete alliances go to 20 slots immediately", it had included an increase in alliance size to 25 slots? Sure, smaller alliances benefit more, but all alliances feel like they got something, even if that doesn't actually change their ability to rank that much.

I'm not saying for sure that would be the best solution... The immediate recruitment feeding frenzy would be a bit chaotic to say the least, but I think it would have been a better option.

simonsez

atomzed wrote:

Car company: "Hi guys, we are upgrading all our cars to premium leather seats for the cars that we are selling from Dec 2014 onwards".

Disgruntled customer: "what?!?! How dare you give out free premium leather seats to everyone else including me!I paid for it since1973! You are devaluing my purchases.... I expect a full refund for my purchases in 1973, 1978, 1983, 19xx......."

Bad analogy, because someone else getting leather seats doesn't screw me over... it's more like if you bought a car and paid $5,000 for special license plates that let you drive in the HOV lanes and save 20 minutes off your commute, and then the city announces that everyone can now drive in the HOV lanes for free.

vudu3

Hahahahaha, oh man do I feel bad for Pwuz_. Dude's spent nearly a Stark Salary personally building his alliance from the ground up.