Devs, can we please have female characters that don't suck?

Pylgrim

First off, stop saying "PVE this, PVE that, PVP is not everything, etc." I have agreed with and dismissed this point several times because it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking exclusively about PVP. I would have appended "in PVP" at the end of the question on the title but there was no room left. Please, I am talking about PVP and talking about higher tiers of tournament play, at that. The fact that some female heroes are conditionally good in PVE doesn't change this fact and while it can be presented as evidence that they do not generally "suck", they still suck at PVP. This is a fact. Think that they are the best at PVE or something? Feel free to start a thread asking for male characters to be good at PVE or whatnot and stop diluting the point of this thread.

Second, stop bringing the Sentry into the conversation, geez, poor guy has been reduced to a Hitler stand-in even though I have reiterated WAY too many times that I'm not expecting any female (or indeed, male) character to reach that level. For the last time, I'm not implying that each or any character female or not should have Sentry's level of power.

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

It may be the point you were contending but not the one I was. As I mentioned in a post above, it is truly fantastic that you think that they do not suck and have a blast playing them, apparently in exclusion of the unequivocally stronger male characters. More power to you. I am, however, talking about the competition at large, where any given sample of players in a PVP with 400 points or more hardly ever are sporting a female character, and when they do, it's only the two that suck the least, GSBW and Psylocke. And yes, I am using the word suck. If they didn't, they would show up frequently in PVP in the same proportions that the non-OP male characters do. As you see, I'm not even advocating for them to be OP. I just want them to be in the same level of say, Punisher, BP, or Steve Rogers.

First of all, PVP isn't the only thing in MPQ so determining the worth of a character on PVP alone is flawed at best.

Secondly, if you're going by the roster you face at higher levels in PVP you could say that every single character that isn't LT,Daken,Sentry or Hood sucks since higher up those are pretty much all you ever see. I hardly ever see the supposedly unsucky BP, Super Steve or Punisher up there either. So if you made the females equal to them (in your eyes) they'd still not really play a role in the upper tiers of PVP. As for She-Hulk, one of the reasons you never see her in PVP is that only very few players have maxed her...

Thirdly, not being the very best at something doesn't mean they suck, it's not a binary switch...or else pretty much everyone of us here sucks.

Apparently you skipped the part in the post you are quoting where I stated that I am talking exclusively about PVP. Also, you seem to have skipped a post in which I mentioned that in the mid-to-high tiers of MMR (and under 800 points) you find a lot more diversity than all Patchneto/Lakentry/LThor/Hood, including almost every single 3* or better male character in the game, and hardly ever any female.

You may have a point about She-Hulk, I kind of had underestimated her red and only recently fought maxed versions of her. Her green still sucks horribly and blue is only conditionally mediocre at best, straight-out counterproductive at worst. As good as her red can be, it seems to me that she needs to be in very specific teams to work.

HailMary

Pylgrim wrote:

First off, stop saying "PVE this, PVE that, PVP is not everything, etc." I have agreed with and dismissed this point several times because it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking exclusively about PVP. I would have appended "in PVP" at the end of the question on the title but there was no room left. Please, I am talking about PVP and talking about higher tiers of tournament play, at that. The fact that some female heroes are conditionally good in PVE doesn't change this fact and while it can be presented as evidence that they do not generally "suck", they still suck at PVP. This is a fact. Think that they are the best at PVE or something? Feel free to start a thread asking for male characters to be good at PVE or whatnot and stop diluting the point of this thread.

You might want to change your thread title and/or opening post to reflect this "exclusively about PVP" business, then.

With regard to an earlier comment, I've definitely seen more Mostorm in PVP than Loki, Rags, or DD (possibly more than those three combined), and she's not even a long-established character. I also see Psy in fairly regular rotation, and quite a few SHIELD members bought covers to max out their Marvs soon after her release. I do agree, though, that LT has completely obsoleted GSBW in PVP.

So, no, there are no top-tier hitters who are female, and it'd be cool if there was (I'd like to see an appropriately powerful Jean Grey, Rogue, and Emma Frost enter the char pool), but female chars don't categorically "suck."

Pylgrim

HailMary wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

First off, stop saying "PVE this, PVE that, PVP is not everything, etc." I have agreed with and dismissed this point several times because it's not what I'm talking about. I am talking exclusively about PVP. I would have appended "in PVP" at the end of the question on the title but there was no room left. Please, I am talking about PVP and talking about higher tiers of tournament play, at that. The fact that some female heroes are conditionally good in PVE doesn't change this fact and while it can be presented as evidence that they do not generally "suck", they still suck at PVP. This is a fact. Think that they are the best at PVE or something? Feel free to start a thread asking for male characters to be good at PVE or whatnot and stop diluting the point of this thread.

You might want to change your thread title and/or opening post to reflect this "exclusively about PVP" business, then.

With regard to an earlier comment, I've definitely seen more Mostorm in PVP than Loki, Rags, or DD (possibly more than those three combined), and she's not even a long-established character. I also see Psy in fairly regular rotation, and quite a few SHIELD members bought covers to max out their Marvs soon after her release. I do agree, though, that LT has completely obsoleted GSBW in PVP.

So, no, there are no top-tier hitters who are female, and it'd be cool if there was (I'd like to see an appropriately powerful Jean Grey, Rogue, and Emma Frost enter the char pool), but female chars don't categorically "suck."

Yeah, edited OP. Should've thought of that before, thanks. And you have to agree than being slightly more popular than the 3 worst male characters (4? Beast seems really motivated to join that elite group) among 22 of them is not something that she's dying to put on her resume.

HailMary

Pylgrim wrote:

Yeah, edited OP. Should've thought of that before, thanks. And you have to agree than being slightly more popular than the 3 worst male characters (4? Beast seems really motivated to join that elite group) among 22 of them is not something that she's dying to put on her resume.

Oh, I'm not very bullish on Mostorm in PVP. I was surprised to see her so much, actually, esp. since I saw a number of maxed Mostorms so early that people had to have been buying covers to max her out.

But, Psy can dish out serious pain very quickly, and I pretty much skip any near-max Psy I see in PVP because her powers are dummy-proof. If I didn't already have LT, CMags, and BP maxed (and, IIRC, Hulk & Punisher, but they're less relevant to the point here) when I finally completed my 5/3/5 Psy, I probably would have maxed her.

Unknown

I have no idea why Psylocke gets all this love when she really sucks. She's like a strictly inferior version of The Punisher. She-Hulk is the only female character that may possibly be playable at the high end of PvP, and that'd be more of defensive substitution against strong special tile user. Even then, it might be better to just go with Falcon, but Falcon is harder to put in a team in PvP than PvE because Falcon usually forces the second open slot to be Daken, while She-Hulk doesn't have the same restriction. Captain Marvel might be barely playable in the top tier, but it won't be happening anytime soon due to a lack of covers. The other characters you see is either from ignorance or a lack of covers. A lot of people have IM40 and GSBW built up back when they were quite good and not everyone can easily max out other 3*s. It's difficult to play The Hood even as overpowered as he is due to a lack of HPs, and all versions of Storm is in the same HP tier with significantly less overpowerness.

Usable in PvE doesn't mean 'can defeat trivial enemies', and in PvE you usually have all 3 slots open which allows you to put in Falcon who pretty much trumps everyone else at the moment. Prior to the level shift Moonstone + 40 levels is quite good in PvE, and OBW + 40 levels is a PvE powerhouse, but this is no longer the case after the level shift.

HairyDave

Phantron wrote:

I have no idea why Psylocke gets all this love when she really sucks. She's like a strictly inferior version of The Punisher.

I'm pretty sure we thrashed this one to death a few months ago.

mischiefmaker wrote:

tl; dr: I think a reasonable conclusion to draw from all of this is that Punisher has a slightly higher power level (Judgment + 3 useful abilities FTW), but if you have every character in the game to choose from, Psylocke is slightly more useful and flexible. I stand by my statement that Pun is overrated at #4, but I'm ok with him being above Psylocke, maybe somewhere in the #8-9 range, below Hood, above Hulk.

Unknown

psylocke and daken. one green match and she just became better than punisher in one move.

OnesOwnGrief

resume_duel wrote:

psylocke and daken. one green match and she just became better than punisher in one move.

Something just bugs me real fierce knowing that Psylocke has stronger strike tiles but people would pair her with a character just to bring down her Red and lose out on them.

Unknown

your going to get one of her strike tiles out. and daken will eat them eventually its all how you play.

Unknown

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

resume_duel wrote:

psylocke and daken. one green match and she just became better than punisher in one move.

Something just bugs me real fierce knowing that Psylocke has stronger strike tiles but people would pair her with a character just to bring down her Red and lose out on them.

That's because it'd take you 21 red AP to generate 3 strike tiles at their normal cost, which is enough to kill 1.5 guys with Patch if you assume you've that kind of red AP available. HT can probably kill 2 guys with that kind of AP depending on who they are, though Patch would be a sure thing (with level 5 TBTI but no reason not to have that if you somehow knew you were going to get 21 red AP). Of course trying to get a cheap strike tile in almost never works either, but it just doesn't work trying to generate those strike tiles the normal way.

OnesOwnGrief

Phantron wrote:

OnesOwnGrief wrote:

resume_duel wrote:

psylocke and daken. one green match and she just became better than punisher in one move.

Something just bugs me real fierce knowing that Psylocke has stronger strike tiles but people would pair her with a character just to bring down her Red and lose out on them.

That's because it'd take you 21 red AP to generate 3 strike tiles at their normal cost, which is enough to kill 1.5 guys with Patch if you assume you've that kind of red AP available. HT can probably kill 2 guys with that kind of AP depending on who they are, though Patch would be a sure thing (with level 5 TBTI but no reason not to have that if you somehow knew you were going to get 21 red AP). Of course trying to get a cheap strike tile in almost never works either, but it just doesn't work trying to generate those strike tiles the normal way.

That's true, which is why I can't consider Psylocke as a good character. She does have low cost skills but her damage output leaves a bit more to be desired in dispatching low health characters. Human Torch just does it better.

themoneymaker

first of all the female characters aren't sucky in my opinion psylocke, GSBW OBW and storm classic can pack a punch, secondly i don't read comics so idk but I'm assuming the most popular characters are males cos thats what the movies are about and your gonna want your most popular characters to be powerful females are kinda in the background in marvel movies except for jean grey so i guess its fitting they're sort of in the background for this game

NighteyesGrisu

Pylgrim wrote:

Apparently you skipped the part in the post you are quoting where I stated that I am talking exclusively about PVP.

Ok then, in a very specific set of situations, none of the female characters really cut it....so...yeah.

also LThor really sucks if you have no red, yellow or green

Also, you seem to have skipped a post in which I mentioned that in the mid-to-high tiers of MMR (and under 800 points) you find a lot more diversity than all Patchneto/Lakentry/LThor/Hood, including almost every single 3* or better male character in the game, and hardly ever any female.

I did not skip it but regarded it as a ridiculous claim. There's a wider variete of characters at this stage, yes. but that very often includes GSBW/Carol or Psy. Certainly at least as often than Loki,Rags,Spidy,Doom or all the other non top-notch males.

Pylgrim

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Apparently you skipped the part in the post you are quoting where I stated that I am talking exclusively about PVP.

Ok then, in a very specific set of situations, none of the female characters really cut it....so...yeah.

also LThor really sucks if you have no red, yellow or green

You got me there. I am indeed talking about a extremely specific, niche, almost arcane set of precise conditions. Otherwise known as 50% of the available modes of playing the game. And many would argue, the most important 50% since it is the one that counts towards season rewards.

Also, you seem to have skipped a post in which I mentioned that in the mid-to-high tiers of MMR (and under 800 points) you find a lot more diversity than all Patchneto/Lakentry/LThor/Hood, including almost every single 3* or better male character in the game, and hardly ever any female.

I did not skip it but regarded it as a ridiculous claim. There's a wider variete of characters at this stage, yes. but that very often includes GSBW/Carol or Psy. Certainly at least as often than Loki,Rags,Spidy,Doom or all the other non top-notch males.

Again you got me. I will not deny most females see as much play as Loki and Rags and Daredevil, the worse, by far, male characters. It is, in fact, the whole point of my argument. Good to hear that you agree.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

So, forced to play with Bag-Hulk it's driven hard into me how much she sucks. I hear that some people have their uses for her, but when your best characters are ones that have abilities that put special tiles in the board, she's even worse than dead weight. It also sent me thinking how with the earlier release of Captain Bagvel, the double-nerf to an already mediocre Storm, and Bag Lady being the only remaining sucky 4* character, the only pseudo-viable female character in 3*-and-above land is GSBW. Psylocke is ok if you don't have anything better (i.e. almost every single non-Loki/Daredevil male character), I guess. The best female characters are 2*s, OBW and c.Storm, but Moonstone is the second worst 2* character. And which is the unarguable worst character in the whole game? That's right, a female, Yelena Balova.

So now that you are done with a round of buffs and nerfs, can we have another in which female characters are given more relevance? Or can we please have a new, truly powerful, tournament-worthy female character?

EDIT. It may have not come out as clear as I intended, but I am talking exclusively about their performance in PVP.

Shulk isn't that bad. Her red is pretty good and her blue is good if your opponent uses special tiles and your team doesn't, or at least you haven't used them yet in that match. Captain marvel is like a hulk with less health. You either kill her in one turn or she hits you hard, especially if you use strike tiles. Even if you kill her, her teammates can use all the ap she generated. I agree that mostorm is bad, especially since panther shares two of her colors and does them both better. Bag lady sucks too. Psylocke is very good with Laken since her red will cost little and her black attack tile will do tons of damage every turn. Pair them with a strong green user (human torch is very good here) to use all of the matches daken will be making for strike tiles and you have a solid team. Obw and cstorm being two of the best 2* counteracts moonstone being one of the worst. And yes, the worst character is a female. There was a 50/50 shot of that happening. It's not like it was unlikely.

Unknown

The difference between Captain Marvel and Hulk is that Captain Marvel can punish early team attacks more than Hulk because you can usually hit a Molotov and then just match away the Anger tile or only do it when there are very few green tiles on the board, while Energy Absorption can't be stopped early.

Saying Psylocke is decent with Daken is like saying Bagman is decent with Daken. Daken is one of the most overpowered character right now and he can do massive damage with only match damage so it's pretty hard to do worse than that. Anyone goes well with Magneto too because Magneto can easily kill most teams by himself between his blue/red. Doesn't mean whoever he's paired up with is necessarily doing anything useful. You occasionally have the cool party trick of dropping a 6 red AP Psychic Knife but that happens way less than people think. You've to have 2 red matches before more than one green match is made on the board, and since green is a stronger color than red it doesn't make sense to try to match red first when green are available.

HailMary

Pylgrim wrote:

I did not skip it but regarded it as a ridiculous claim. There's a wider variete of characters at this stage, yes. but that very often includes GSBW/Carol or Psy. Certainly at least as often than Loki,Rags,Spidy,Doom or all the other non top-notch males.

Again you got me. I will not deny most females see as much play as Loki and Rags and Daredevil, the worse, by far, male characters. It is, in fact, the whole point of my argument. Good to hear that you agree.

Sigh, if only that's what he actually said. Your snark might actually have meant something, then.

Unknown

Having read the subject line, I click on the thread and skim the OP. Certain in the knowledge that I am smarter than everyone and my words Must Be Heard, I click reply without reading any of the three pages of responses.

First, I point out the good ** characters, though you already mentioned them. Then I will talk about the good * characters! maybe mentioning how they were pre-patches, as if that is relevant. Once I've brought you low by stating these redundant facts, I will move on to pointing out every niche a female *** can fit. I will ignore or am ignorant to the counter-arguments. I will emphasize their not entirely sucky behaviour in PVE.

Then I will create a false dichotomy of female characters needing to either be overpowered and ridiculous, or at the level they are now. I will imply that there is no level between the current status and breaking-the-game powerful.

I will finish with a smug point that this is the way things are, therefore acceptable. Also, token female is attractive and I will bring this is up because my opinion on a fiction persons sexiness is very relevant.

Bam, you have been served, OP.

Unknown

In all seriousness, I think a quick way to look at this is to glance at mischiefmaker's character rankings.

http://www.d3pforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9782

In the top ten is one female character, who was seriously nerfed right after the results were posted. In the bottom ten are three female characters, including the coveted very lowest slot. Does that not give evidence of some sort of power level issue?

For the record, I would like to note that I was pleasantly surprised to see random female NPC's as soldiers. Often in these sorts of games, all NPCs that aren't healers or using a whip are male, so it's nice to see female soldiers, commanders, etc. I feel like it's kind of sad that something that minor is a big deal, but it's still worth noting that the devs are obviously not totally oblivious to women needing a stronger presence.

I would love it if Emma Frost (or some other female) came out as an amazing *** that broke the game. Not because I think that's how it should be, but because it would indicate to me a level of respect in saying yes - women can be super mega awesome too. The one broke female character (OBW) was broken in healing, which is so stereotypically female. Give me an Emma Frost who destroys stunned people, KOing them instantly, or a Rogue who steals an enemy power, removing it from their abilities for the rest of the match. Give me Dark Phoenix who can't be knocked out until the rest of her team is down, and a red attack that makes Patch's look like playtime. It would be such a nice change to have a female character need to be nerfed because she is too strong.

Nonce Equitaur 2

If the Top Tier characters are removed, the female characters rank well with the male characters. Psylocke is good. Captain Marvel is moving up in the ranks. It's true that there are no top tier female characters.

Female Characters
82/11/73/09/64/09/3.0 - 19/__/14/__/12/__ - 8220 - [goto=invisible4]Invisible Woman[/goto] (Classic) -- should have some costs lowered.
11/61/12/79/70/13/4.0 - __/14/__/11/19/__ - 5950 - [goto=blackwidow3]Black Widow[/goto] (Grey Suit) -- should have more Health
61/79/11/13/70/12/4.5 - PA/_7/__/__/__/_9 - 8500 - [goto=captainmarvel3]Captain Marvel[/goto] (Modern)
11/79/70/13/12/61/3.8 - __/_8/10/__/__/_6 - 6800 - [goto=psylocke3]Psylocke[/goto] (Classic)
13/70/79/12/61/11/3.0 - __/_9/_9/__/12/__ -10200- [goto=shehulk3]She-Hulk[/goto] (Modern) -- Should do more damage
70/12/11/13/79/61/3.5 - _9/__/__/__/10/_9 - 5100 - [goto=storm3]Storm[/goto] (Mohawk) -- Should have more Health and do more damage
10/11/49/55/09/43/4.0 - __/__/11/_8/__/PA - 3430 - [goto=blackwidow2]Black Widow[/goto] (Original)
09/49/11/55/10/43/3.0 - __/11/__/_5/__/17 - 4900 - [goto=moonstone2]Moonstone[/goto] (Dark Avengers) -- should have some costs lowered.
43/11/49/09/55/10/3.5 - PA/__/11/__/12/__ - 2940 - [goto=storm2]Storm[/goto] (Classic)

Male Characters
70/13/79/12/61/11/3.5 - 11/__/_8/__/_9/__ - 6800 - [goto=beast3]Beast[/goto] (Modern)
11/61/70/79/12/13/3.5 - __/_7/_7/11/__/__ - 6800 - [goto=daredevil3]Daredevil[/goto] (Classic)
13/61/11/79/12/70/4.5 - __/_6/__/14/__/PA - 6800 - [goto=deadpool3]Deadpool[/goto] (It's Me, Deadpool)
10/11/69/54/12/61/3.0 - __/__/_9/__/__/12 - 7176 - [goto=doctordoom3]Doctor Doom[/goto] (Classic)
79/13/70/61/12/11/3.0 - PA/__/PA/12/__/__ - 5950 - [goto=falcon3]Falcon[/goto] (Mighty Avengers)
70/79/61/13/12/11/3.5 - 14/13/20/__/__/__ - 8500 - [goto=ironman3]Iron Man[/goto] (Model 40)
11/10/12/69/54/61/3.0 - __/__/__/_5/__/11 - 5023 - [goto=loki3]Loki[/goto] (Dark Reign)
76/70/61/11/12/13/3.2 - _9/_8/10/__/__/__ - 6800 - [goto=magneto3]Magneto[/goto] (Classic)
11/61/11/12/61/12/3.0 - __/_6/__/__/_6/__ - 8611 - [goto=ragnarok3]Ragnarok[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
79/13/61/70/12/11/3.0 - 12/__/_5/PA/__/__ - 6800 - [goto=spiderman3]Spider-Man[/goto] (Classic)
11/61/12/13/70/79/4.0 - __/_8/__/__/_8/_7 - 6800 - [goto=thepunisher3]The Punisher[/goto] (Dark Reign)
61/70/13/12/79/11/4.0 - PA/14/__/__/_9/__ - 6800 - [goto=wolverine3]Wolverine[/goto] (Patch)
43/49/09/11/55/10/3.0 - 10/10/__/__/_5/__ - 5880 - [goto=ares2]Ares[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
09/09/09/46/36/41/4.5 - __/__/__/PA/__/16 - 2460 - [goto=bullseye2]Bullseye[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
11/43/49/55/09/10/4.5 - __/_9/_9/PA/__/__ - 3280 - [goto=hawkeye2]Hawkeye[/goto] (Modern)

Top Tier characters
82/10/73/64/11/09/3.5 - 12/__/10/12/__/__ - 9590 - [goto=nickfury4]Nick Fury[/goto] (Director of SHIELD)
64/09/11/10/73/82/4.0 - _9/__/__/__/_8/11 -10960- [goto=wolverine4]Wolverine[/goto] (X-Force)
79/13/70/12/11/61/3.5 - _9/__/_8/__/__/12 - 8500 - [goto=blackpanther3]Black Panther[/goto] (Man Without Fear)
79/70/61/11/12/13/3.0 - 19/11/12/__/__/__ - 8500 - [goto=captainamerica3]Captain America[/goto] (Steve Rogers)
11/61/70/79/12/13/3.5 - __/__/_5/PA/__/PA - 6800 - [goto=daken3]Daken[/goto] (Classic)
13/79/12/11/61/70/3.0 - __/_8/__/__/_5/10 - 5950 - [goto=humantorch3]Human Torch[/goto] (Classic)
61/79/13/11/70/12/3.0 - _8/11/__/__/_7/__ -10200- [goto=sentry3]Sentry[/goto] (Dark Avengers)
79/13/70/12/11/61/4.5 - 15/__/PA/__/__/_9 - 5100 - [goto=thehood3]The Hood[/goto] (Classic)
12/70/13/11/79/61/3.0 - __/14/__/__/10/PA -11475- [goto=thehulk3]The Hulk[/goto] (Indestructible)
70/79/12/11/61/13/3.5 - 12/_8/__/__/14/__ -10200- [goto=thor3]Thor[/goto] (Modern)