True Healing Discussion (Live 6/25)

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  • Unknown
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    IceIX wrote:
    One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

    What we intend, and continue to drill in on is that we want players to have a broad mix of characters instead of a Top 3 that is their sole team to play with. In Versus this is a bit rougher of a prospect as players that battle have their last winning team placed on defense. So it's not always the best idea to fight with a less powerful defensive team in order to make up more points. That's something that we're always thinking about. We've discussed allowing players to set a defensive team, but with many other games out with similar versus situations this results in a very precise meta-game where an extremely large percentage of the user base chooses the same defenders. That's not a very fun time for most players.

    However, in Events, we continually buff different characters, and outside of Heroics, still allow for characters to be used that aren't buffed. What we want players to do is to play with the breadth of their roster instead of using Spider-Man or Black Widow as necessary crutches and only building 3 other characters. This change is intended to result in exactly this as players see that they can't just rely on in-battle healing and look for other ways besides spending Health Packs to continue playing. We want you to keep playing on your own schedule. We want you to play with multiple characters. Doing so keeps players on their toes and making them think of character combinations that they wouldn't otherwise go with if they weren't forced out of their single set of heroes.


    I know I'm probably in the minority but I welcome this change and see where they are coming from. I see this leading to more diverse matches and it rewards having a good team instead of 2 max characters.

    you also made your 3* transition right after selling your thorverine, us 2* players need OBW, I might end up being ok after getting my lazy cap to 115, but I really dont know unless i can get some really important covers fast what im going to do
  • Unknown
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    Nobody wants them, but my 2 cents is that it'd be a lot simpler just to add a new rule/logic/code/whatever that "you can't have more health at the end of a fight than you did at the start." That takes out prologue healing, but leaves in in-battle healing. Unless, of course, the actual goal is not to remove prologue healing, but to make health packs the only (non character-specific) form of healing. [lying] But I'm not cynical enough to believe that's the impetus behind this change. [/lying]

    Also, the idea that this will make me bust out Cap/Moonstone/etc. for PvP is pretty funny. I'd rather run Bagman/Bagman/loaner. At least he's already got the "Kick Me" sign on him. The idea of having (and utilizing) a deep roster is good, but the defensive team mechanic is a complete anathema to that. No one's going to try to pick up a win or 2 with Bullseye if it means he ends up in someone else's crosshairs.


    The way I read the change this is what they are planning on doing so not sure what you are trying to say.

    From IceIX's earlier post about it being akin to D&D Temp HP (which appears to be the most descriptive he's been about the mechanic), I assumed that the healing methods would create a pool of temp HP that you lose before losing true HP. So if you take some hits at the start of a fight, then use OBW/Spidey to heal, you would still end the fight down the HP you lost at the start. So while this method is inclusive with the rule I described, it goes beyond it by eliminating the ability to heal any damage you took during the fight.
  • Unknown
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    There are some whiny people on this message board. Every change is the end of the world and further proof that the developers are totally clueless.. Yet for all its flaws, MPQ is obviously pretty amazing or they wouldn't be so passionate.

    I think this change will probably be for the best. In its current state, healing abilities are a bit TOO good. With this update, abilities like anti-gravity device will still be useful, but no longer quite so necessary.

    Speaking as someone who has been following a deep roster strategy from the start, it's gratifying that I might finally get a competitive advantage from it.
  • vudu3
    vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
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    IceIX wrote:
    What we intend, and continue to drill in on is that we want players to have a broad mix of characters instead of a Top 3 that is their sole team to play with.
    This is great. Now please give me the ISO to do this. Last I checked I was able a million ISO short of leveling my characters to their current cover max. It takes a ridiculous amount of ISO to level a "broad mix of characters" and lately this ISO has been very hard to come by. The removal of first time completion bonuses in PVE and reduction of ISO cashes from Simulator and other PVE events certainly hasn't helped.
  • Unknown
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    If one of your goals is to discourage prologue healing (which I can agree is un-fun), and also to encourage more roster diversity, why not try out a more incremental change to start. Instead of healing never persisting, make it so that characters can simply never leave a match with more health than they started with (other than by true-healing means).

    So for instance, if your OBW (max HP: 3115) entered the battle with 2500, took damage down to 1900, healed to full, then dropped back down to 2700 and ended the battle, she would emerge with 2500 health.

    My proposed change alone would completely eliminate prologue healing, and would also make it so that eventually you'll need to swap out your "A" team (if it includes OBW) or use heals. But since it's a much less drastic change, you can take metrics over time and see if it's having the desired effect, and can then decide later which direction to take things.
  • wade66
    wade66 Posts: 212 Tile Toppler
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    With Ice mentioning a followup change to the out of battle healing mechanic, it would probably be in their best interest to make all of these changes at once as opposed to removing healing and then trying to make up for it later. It also means the playerbase not having to re-adapt to major change immediately after adapting to this ridiculous change.
  • Unknown
    edited June 2014
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    My big question:are they evil or incompetent? IceIX insists they're simply incompetent; they want to promote roster diversity by using a game mechanic that sounds like a combination of Rube Goldberg and the underpants gnomes. No healing = roster diversity. It's missing several steps and a lot of logic, but that's the plan. They're simply too far removed from gameplay to realize how badly conceived this idea is.

    The other, probably more likely answer is that they're evil. They don't think they're selling enough health packs, and this will force people to buy them. I'm fairly close to certain this is the real reason, because the explanation given simply doesn't make any sense. I'm not accusing IceIX of lying - he may simply hav been fed a bill of goods by his bosses - but this decision probably will result in increased sales of health packs, unfortunately, and probably won't do anything to improve roster diversity.

    The question, I suppose, is how quickly does this render the game unplayable? Do the whales start taking the entire top ten immediately? Top twenty? Will this totally freeze the rest of us out of competition, or simply make it much, much harder for us? What will it take to make D3 realize that this will be catastrophic for gameplay, in all likelihood?
  • Unknown
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    There are some whiny people on this message board. Every change is the end of the world and further proof that the developers are totally clueless.. Yet for all its flaws, MPQ is obviously pretty amazing or they wouldn't be so passionate.

    I think this change will probably be for the best. In its current state, healing abilities are a bit TOO good. With this update, abilities like anti-gravity device will still be useful, but no longer quite so necessary.

    Speaking as someone who has been following a deep roster strategy from the start, it's gratifying that I might finally get a competitive advantage from it.

    not all changes make people so upset, like the spiderman nerf most people were ok with because we saw the need for it, not the case with this

    people who have been playing forever will have such an extreme advantage, I have 5 max 85 characters and alot of 3star character about to be useable and still feel this could cripple my ability to get 2 covers per pvp(not including alliance)
  • Unknown
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    There are some whiny people on this message board. Every change is the end of the world and further proof that the developers are totally clueless.. Yet for all its flaws, MPQ is obviously pretty amazing or they wouldn't be so passionate.

    I think this change will probably be for the best. In its current state, healing abilities are a bit TOO good. With this update, abilities like anti-gravity device will still be useful, but no longer quite so necessary.

    Speaking as someone who has been following a deep roster strategy from the start, it's gratifying that I might finally get a competitive advantage from it.

    Great for you. Those of us without deep rosters playing your deep rosters? What do I do after the only 3s I have die and have healed? Easy, stop playing, get behind in events while you and your deep roster collect the same characters you have that I desperately need. Why would you EVER use ags with obw? Unless you have no other blue, there's no point.
  • FierceKiwi
    FierceKiwi Posts: 505 Critical Contributor
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    Warrition wrote:
    If one of your goals is to discourage prologue healing (which I can agree is un-fun), and also to encourage more roster diversity, why not try out a more incremental change to start. Instead of healing never persisting, make it so that characters can simply never leave a match with more health than they started with (other than by true-healing means).

    So for instance, if your OBW (max HP: 3115) entered the battle with 2500, took damage down to 1900, healed to full, then dropped back down to 2700 and ended the battle, she would emerge with 2500 health.

    My proposed change alone would completely eliminate prologue healing, and would also make it so that eventually you'll need to swap out your "A" team (if it includes OBW) or use heals. But since it's a much less drastic change, you can take metrics over time and see if it's having the desired effect, and can then decide later which direction to take things.

    The trouble there is every battle becomes OBW (or I guess Spidey/She-Hulk) + A-Teamer + featured and you just make sure to use your heal move right before you finish the fight. Unless you get really unlucky all heroes can still exit with full/almust full health.
  • mohio
    mohio Posts: 1,690 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I freely admit I've been using OBW as a bit of crutch. I have a 141 Punisher, a 141 LT, a 135 LC, a 100 5/3/5 Patch, and just recently a 5/3/4 cMags at level 85 (plus some other decently covered, but low leveled 3*). However, I pretty much always run LT/OBW/Featured or Pun/OBW/Featured in PvP because it lets me not worry about health packs unless I run into multiple cascade/wipe scenarios in a short amount of time. Also OBW is a pretty powerful character for her espionage in conjunction with Punisher's strike tiles, and her AR with LT to power up the high AP moves, as well as keeping the opposition from getting off their own high AP moves. I don't really ever go into prologue to heal unless I am making a last minute push in PvE and run out of health packs and need to heal that "essential" 3* hero. So being aimed at prologue healing you would think this shouldn't effect me, yet it looks like it will have a huge effect on me as I'm going to have to use different teams in PvP unless I want to use a lot of HP shielding to let my health packs recharge. I can only imagine how much worse this will be for players less fortunate than myself who don't have a stable of 3* characters to fall back on (or even more decent 2* characters to use).

    This change also seems to make boosts even more important as I would much rather spend a bunch of iso on boosts to help me win faster than HP on health packs. Guess I better start leveling up Patch and now that I have 10 covers for Daken, him too.
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Is this change to facilitate burning through heal packs faster? Thus, making people buy health packs more which creates more revenue for D3?
  • Unknown
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    gamar wrote:
    But if I'm a 2* team out of health packs and facing level 100 enemies and get knocked out, I'm ready to go in 3 hours. If I'm a 3* team out of health packs and facing level 150 enemies and get knocked out, I'm ready to go in 9 hours. How is the playing field even?

    You won't be out for 9 hours because all your health packs will recharge twice over during that time.

    Also, you COULD keep playing with your 2* team for a while.

    But I just wish I knew what this was actually aimed at ending. I don't think it will have any significant event on PvP rankings at the "win 3* covers" end because that's all about speed, not healing. It might limit the most obsessive PvE grinders, but does anyone really care if those guys want to play every node every reset? It will reduce the play time of 2* players trying to make the leap to 3* teams, that's about all I can think it will do... why do we want to do that again?

    This seriously seems like a solution in search of a problem. D3, drop it and let your programmers and designers do something more worthwhile.
  • Unknown
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    Ben Grimm wrote:
    My big question:are they evil or incompetent? IceIX insists they're simply incompetent; they want to promote roster diversity by using a game mechanic that sounds like a combination of Rube Goldberg and the underpants gnomes. No healing = roster diversity. It's missing several steps and a lot of logic, but that's the plan. They're simply too far removed from gameplay to realize how badly conceived this idea is.

    The other, probably more likely answer is that they're evil. They don't think they're selling enough health packs, and this will force people to buy them. I'm fairly close to certain this is the real reason, because the explanation given simply doesn't make any sense. I'm not accusing IceIX of lying - he may simply hav been fed a bill of goods by his bosses - but this decision probably will result in increased sales of health packs, unfortunately, and probably won't do anything to improve roster diversity.

    The question, I suppose, is how quickly does this render the game unplayable? Do the whales start taking the entire top ten immediately? Top twenty? Will this totally freeze the rest of us out of competition, or simply make it much, much harder for us? What will it take to make D3 realize that this will be catastrophic for gameplay, in all likelihood?
    Where's Twysta with the "why not both" meme?
  • Kelbris
    Kelbris Posts: 1,051
    edited June 2014
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    IceIX wrote:
    One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

    Actual strong gameplay leads to fighting high level enemies. Fighting 395 enemies isn't fun. The only way to avoid high scaling is to take damage during events. The only way to offset the damage is to heal.

    But healing isn't fun, apparently.

    So the only fun thing to do is to take damage, then wait for your health packs to recharge.

    Although, taking damage in a game isn't fun unless you gain something from it, like a bloodletting skill where you gain a damage buff or the Psycho in Borderlands 2.

    So... I guess events aren't fun?



    I don't mind that you want to eliminate prologue healing. Just don't tell us what we think is fun or not. That's for us to decide.
  • FierceKiwi
    FierceKiwi Posts: 505 Critical Contributor
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    Zhirrzh wrote:
    Also, you COULD keep playing with your 2* team for a while.

    Depends in PVP that's suicide. In PVE unless it's early in the event and scaling is still pretty minimal all you'll do is send some 2*s to their death. But I guess I could play with my 1* after that at least they'll be ready to die again by the time the second team wipes.
  • Kelbris
    Kelbris Posts: 1,051
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    There are some whiny people on this message board. Every change is the end of the world and further proof that the developers are totally clueless.. Yet for all its flaws, MPQ is obviously pretty amazing or they wouldn't be so passionate.

    You keep using that word.

    I do not think it means what you think it means.
  • mouser
    mouser Posts: 529 Critical Contributor
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    IceIX wrote:
    One of the intentions with this change is to cut down on things like Prologue Healing, which prolongs play time through something that is pretty obviously just a time intensive process that doesn't involve actual strong gameplay. It's something people do because it's there, much like tanking. It's not something that's fun. It's not something that's enjoyable. It's something that exists and is taken advantage of because of pure efficiency.

    And yet for most people: playing is more fun then not playing. Changes that reduce the amount of time people can choose to spend playing the game are generally not good for player retention in my opinion.
  • Unknown
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    Is this change to facilitate burning through heal packs faster? Thus, making people buy health packs more which creates more revenue for D3?

    Yep. That's exactly what it is, and nothing else.

    And it will not only make the game a worse experience for players, it will decrease user engagement, decrease player population, and ultimately result in D3P shooting themselves in the foot.
  • Unknown
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    There's two things I don't get.

    1) If a true concern is that they want us to use a wide array of characters...then when will they fix the issue of me having to sell the same daredevil copy 4 times in the last two weeks? That's all I feel like I do anymore is sell copies of covers I already have. I've heard others say similar, I know I'm not the only one disheartened by the lack of ability to gain the covers we want.

    2) This community has been talking about key issues everyone wants fixed or has issues with and yet once again all we are seeing is characters people have invested money and time in get made essentially useless.

    If you say your'e making it more fun, more interesting...then actually do that, not the complete opposite.
This discussion has been closed.