How do you counter Bishop?

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  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Polares said:
    Spudgutter said:
    Polares said:
    I find it incredible that a 4 is forcing people with 5 rosters to use 4s to counter him. This alone speaks volumes of the mistakes Devs have made with broken passives, and how stupid and useless is 5 land. In the end PvP is HORRIBLE right now, people now has to endure it, not have fun with it. PvP is not worth it.
    I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree.  If you want to change it to say it is "horrible for me(you)" then that is another matter.  But i don't find it is that bad at all.

    Anyone who has bumped heads with me in the past about pvp will tell you that i am all for inclusion and leveling of the playing field.  In fact, my general opinion for much of the game is that we want to make it so that more people can have fun when they play, so that more people play,  so that the game is around longer, yadda yadda yadda.  

    So that is the long way of saying this is just fine.  Giving transition players a chance to go higher than they have been before, getting them more rewards quicker, is better for all of us. If the sacrifice is that some of us vets have to use a little bit more of our roster, then so be it.  

    In rockets example earlier, he mentioned using halfthor.  I didn't even need to finish reading because i knew how it would end.  Because i have fallen victim to it myself several times.  

    It's now the opposite problem than what we had with gambit.  Instead of needing to use the same character over and over in order to win(gambit), we have to actually *not* use our primary team(thor/okoye) instinctively, and find an alternative solution.

    And even then, aren't we really only talking about Sim, because it is the only place we can choose a 3 person team?  We really want them to try a "light touch" fix to a character so that us vets can get from 1700-2000 in sim easier?  Really?  We know how they fix characters.  Majority of the time we stop using that person at all.  

    I have 8 million iso with really nothing to use it on.  So i just use boosts every match, since it gives me a head start, makes the match a smidge quicker. And gives me something to spend the iso on.  

    I'm all for finding stuff to keep the game alive for us vets.  Taking the nerf bat to a 4* doesn't seem like one of them, imo.
    What you are asking for are two completely different things. Inclusion and leveling the battlefield are all about good MMR, 4 players should not have to play against 5 players in PvP. Also, when 4s have a pretty high number of covers they become viable again (specially because they are buffed and 5s are not). All of this has nothing to do with Bishop. Any layer of play should be stronger than the previous one, this is what drives people to upgrade and keep progressing your roster. When 5 players start using 4 chars that are not even maxed to win fully leveled 5 teams, you can smell something wrong is happening.

    What we are seeing here is a character that has some thresholds that are so low, that 5 match damage triggers it. THIS IS WRONG. And it is obvious is wrong because other 4s like DP or Thing dont have such a low threshold. People even keeps Bishop at low level so he triggers his passive easily. THIS IS BAD DESIGN (like when people was using Gambit with covers only in his purple).

    Devs have created lately A LOT of passives that are way OP (you had Gambit, Thor, Bishop, Rocket, America C. etc.) as a way of motivating people. This was a mistake. It has been like this for a while, this is not new, this is why so many people talks about this game being just a match-simulator, without almost no strategy other than building a team, as most of the time you dont even need to fire powers to win, and you just lazily match tiles, without even looking at the color of those tiles!

    Also, 5 chars designs have become super lazy. 4 chars are way more inventive now, which is extremely disappointing.

    PS: And I dont have any problems facing Bishop myself, as I am an old player and I have BSSM fully maxed, so I dont have problems with him or Rocket, but they are both obviously broken (that is why so many people use them).
    While we all want that to be true, that 5* are just better, it doesn't mean it is.  There are several 5* duos that could be taken out by good 4* teams.  Anyone paired with wasp or banner is going to have a hard time.

    And again, we are literally only talking about sim, right?  That it is mostly thor/okoye and kitty/grocket in every other pvp?

    So, taking it at a whole, it is a good thing for inclusion and leveling of the playing field because it does allow weaker teams to hit stronger teams, allowing 4* players to hit 5* if they have bishop but not any usable 5*.  MMR is, was, and always will be, broken.  We have to take every advantage we can get.

    And lastly, you basically counter your own point.  Using thor/okoye is practically autopilot.  I will grant that.  The fact that we have to play so much correlating to us finding quicker, easier teams is another discussion. Playing against kitty/grocket in pvp and the addition of bishop in sim make it actually important what i do in that match, more so than others.  Maybe that is why i don't mind taking them on from time to time, to break up the monotony. 
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    I personally think it would be great if XFDP had the above mentioned passive. 

    What’s the point in wanting characters to be underwhelming? There is no fun in that.

    I also agree that we see the challenges through the lens of our own roster. So while some of you might have Okoye/Thor and are annoyed with Kitty/Rocket or Bishop, you are asking for them to be nerfed to the total devastation of a young roster that might only have them to rely on....seemingly for your own convenience since you can admittedly handle them. It doesn’t feel like a justified position from my point of view.

    I can’t ever hit top 5. I have champed Kitty/Rocket, champed Bishop, champed JJ, Loki5, GE Doom, Okoye, and Cable. Several more mid tiers almost ready. In my view, it’s on me to figure out a way to improve my position within the confines of the game. Not come on the forums and try to convince the devs to nerf the teams that are impeding my progress.

    If these characters are such broken messes and so OP, I should be killing it in PVP. This simply isn’t the case.
  • SymmeTrey
    SymmeTrey Posts: 170 Tile Toppler
    How to counter Bishop? The only winning move is not to play. (i.e. skip like crazy and pound the first, poor, unsuspecting non-Bishop team you find :D )
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,644 Chairperson of the Boards
    So now that 4ocket is up next for PVP, how are we planning to counter the Kitty/boost4ocket/bishop event we'll be seeing?
  • spidyjedi84
    spidyjedi84 Posts: 514 Critical Contributor
    Same way we counter it without a boosted Rocket - Target the strike tiles and glass jaw Kitty after we've stunned Bishop for several turns. With any luck, we'll match their strike tiles faster than they match ours.
  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    And this is why, IMHO, PVE is way more fun than PVP.  I don't have to worry about the "meta" and can just enjoy a story at my own pace.  I know there are many that disagree, but this is definitely how I enjoy to play the game.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,644 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’ll probably just send out my GE Doom to die and clear the strikes, clean up with GRRR until I get to 575 lol. I don’t know if I’ll try and push up to 900
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    So Best Buds will be Bishop Kitty and RG.  Now this would be the perfect time, if this was thought ahead, to boost Kraven.  I love Kraven, I am not joking either.  Last time he was boosted, I had the most blues ever from a PVP unless I was being dumped on. Kravens passive is an awesome counter to Gritty.  

    My issue is with Bishop, again, is that a 5* player makes a match 3 and it triggers his passive.  I cannot even make 1 match 3 move without seeing 5 Blue AP for the AI team.  Heck I just went against a 370 Bishop (funny that this player had 2-370 and the next closest character was 320....) and it was insane.  That team almost took out my full health Okoye at level 512.  Again I hate nerfs but the damage number I feel needs to be tweaked a little that I am able to start the match with at least a 3 tile match. 
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker

    The rockett said:
    So Best Buds will be Bishop Kitty and RG.  Now this would be the perfect time, if this was thought ahead, to boost Kraven.  I love Kraven, I am not joking either.  Last time he was boosted, I had the most blues ever from a PVP unless I was being dumped on. Kravens passive is an awesome counter to Gritty. 
    I love Kraven and use him a lot, but if you're trying to counter Bishop/Kitty/R&G, then Kraven is a baaaaad idea. Bishop is straight-up poison for Kraven. You will trigger Bishop every single turn from turn1.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 12,092 Chairperson of the Boards
    OJSP said:
    The rockett said:
    Again I hate nerds but the damage number I feel needs to be tweaked a little that I am able to start the match with at least a 3 tile match. 
    Please don't hate nerds.. they are humans too.
    Also beware as Nerds may seek Revenge!
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    OJSP said:
    The rockett said:
    Again I hate nerds but the damage number I feel needs to be tweaked a little that I am able to start the match with at least a 3 tile match. 
    Please don't hate nerds.. they are humans too.
    Also beware as Nerds may seek Revenge!
    Damn you fat fingers or small keyboard. 
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,398 Chairperson of the Boards
    I try to just avoid him. but in order to finish the sim today i had to take one team on with him. it really becomes unavoidable close to the end. short story short, caught him with a cascade on the first turn. which literally produced 30 blue ap for the other team. before they'd even taken a turn! almost cost me the match. literally only won with a 'watch my 6' team-up at the end.

    you can't help but think he's not working as intended. or maybe he is.  either way, it's one of the more questionable mechanics in the game. worth a second look and a tweak imo.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,661 Chairperson of the Boards
    jredd said:
    I try to just avoid him. but in order to finish the sim today i had to take one team on with him. it really becomes unavoidable close to the end. short story short, caught him with a cascade on the first turn. which literally produced 30 blue ap for the other team. before they'd even taken a turn! almost cost me the match. literally only won with a 'watch my 6' team-up at the end.

    you can't help but think he's not working as intended. or maybe he is.  either way, it's one of the more questionable mechanics in the game. worth a second look and a tweak imo.
    you learn super quick to rethink who you take into a bishop battle.  He's actually super easy to beat,  but you need to change your team composition.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,398 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    jredd said:
    I try to just avoid him. but in order to finish the sim today i had to take one team on with him. it really becomes unavoidable close to the end. short story short, caught him with a cascade on the first turn. which literally produced 30 blue ap for the other team. before they'd even taken a turn! almost cost me the match. literally only won with a 'watch my 6' team-up at the end.

    you can't help but think he's not working as intended. or maybe he is.  either way, it's one of the more questionable mechanics in the game. worth a second look and a tweak imo.
    you learn super quick to rethink who you take into a bishop battle.  He's actually super easy to beat,  but you need to change your team composition.
    no suggestions? how mysterious...
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,661 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    jredd said:
    Phumade said:
    jredd said:
    I try to just avoid him. but in order to finish the sim today i had to take one team on with him. it really becomes unavoidable close to the end. short story short, caught him with a cascade on the first turn. which literally produced 30 blue ap for the other team. before they'd even taken a turn! almost cost me the match. literally only won with a 'watch my 6' team-up at the end.

    you can't help but think he's not working as intended. or maybe he is.  either way, it's one of the more questionable mechanics in the game. worth a second look and a tweak imo.
    you learn super quick to rethink who you take into a bishop battle.  He's actually super easy to beat,  but you need to change your team composition.
    .
    Lots of threads have counter teams. It all depends on your roster. But I usually see /fight 460 kitty 370 grocket plus a 300 Bishop when I play sim from 1900-2400. I counter that with a 370 gamora/ 370 xfdp / support 5*. There are plenty of combos that mix and match 4*/5*. You have be able to make multiple A teams that can channel their attacks through different methods. Literally every team combo In This game can broken with another equally leveled team. Outside of gambit, every 5* combo in the history of the game can be beaten by a non mirror matched team
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,644 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phumade said:
    jredd said:

    .
    Lots of threads have counter teams. It all depends on your roster. But I usually see /fight 460 kitty 370 grocket plus a 300 Bishop when I play sim from 1900-2400. I counter that with a 370 gamora/ 370 xfdp / support 5*. There are plenty of combos that mix and match 4*/5*. You have be able to make multiple A teams that can channel their attacks through different methods. Literally every team combo In This game can broken with another equally leveled team. Outside of gambit, every 5* combo in the history of the game can be beaten by a non mirror matched team
    The teams I see are not dissimilar to the teams you're seeing, but the problem I have is that I don't have anything approaching "similarly leveled" characters to fight with. My best 4* is America chavez at 312, and that's the only 4 I have above 300. Yet I'm still seeing max-champ 4ockets and Bishops paired with 460+ Kittys in sim. So perhaps it's less that Bishop is fundamentally broken and more that he is hanging a hat on MMR being sub-optimal?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,644 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lol, sorry, I intended it to mean "call attention to" something. I think I may have mixed idioms there, and it would be more clear to say "hanging a lampshade on it."

    Basically I mean it to say that with a single non-meta 5* baby champ and 0 4* characters within 60 levels of one of those wingpersons, I'm still seeing crazy teams in my queue (not retals, but primary queues). I kind of feel like the answer to "how do I defeat this team?" shouldn't be "steal the Time Stone and go back in time and use your Bonus Hero more wisely" but that might just be a me problem?


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,644 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited May 2019
    I came up with a decently reliable 4* counter in sim today: Rogue (297) /Vulture (288) /G4mora (295) with +2 to all, +2 to purple/blue, +2 to green/black. Get Vulture in the air, get G4mora stunning (kitty first with this team, but Bishop as soon as you can after), and than just do what you can to manage the strikes and keep the stun going. I was able to get through a few high-level gritty/bishop teams using 1 or 2 health packs, but I think it'll fall on its face when i run out of +1 to all ap boosts. 
  • abenness
    abenness Posts: 228 Tile Toppler
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I came up with a decently reliable 4* counter in sim today: Rogue (297) /Vulture (288) /G4mora (295) with +2 to all, +2 to purple/blue, +2 to green/black. Get Vulture in the air, get G4mora stunning (kitty first with this team, but Bishop as soon as you can after), and than just do what you can to manage the strikes and keep the stun going. I was able to get through a few high-level gritty/bishop teams using 1 or 2 health packs, but I think it'll fall on its face when i run out of +1 to all ap boosts. 
    In a boss event an age ago, I was using only a single +1 to all, +2 for a colour. You still need to make a match either way to get Vulture (or im40 in my case) going, But your HP-expensive boosts last longer

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