How do you counter Bishop?

24

Comments

  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    BSSM is the man here, that really cheap stun plus ignore strikes makes him almost necessary!
  • moss04
    moss04 Posts: 147 Tile Toppler
    And yet, when people were combo-ing Bishop and Mr Fantastic they felt the need to nerf Mr Fantastic instead, smh
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,239 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    Anther team I've consider but haven't tried yet is
    Bishop/Howard/3rd (not sure who to use as the 3rd).

    The idea being that Howards Blue not only stuns the opponent for 3 turns, it also removes 5 special tiles. Thus it will stop the Kitty buff train in it's tracks (so you can stun either Bishop or Kitty depending on how you think the battle might go) on your 2nd (if they get a cascade on turn 1) or 3rd turn.

    Personally I think Peggy/XPool work better because they finish off the enemy team faster so I haven't tried Howard yet.

    KGB
  • zippee
    zippee Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    During that pvp where everybody was 550, I would see all of bishop teams. So I would use Dr Strange and Silver Surfer with Bishop. One can stun and one can't be stunned so I would have person to at least be able to make a match on every turn.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    Dormammu said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    Am I right to say that majority of the players who are affected by Bishop are 5* players? The one calling for his nerf are also 5* players?
    What I do know is that Bishop was designed to help counter the current meta of Grocket + Guardian/Kitty. That much is obvious. He's just one in a long string of characters the developers have thrown out there to help us do this (4Thanos being the latest blatant Grocket-counter to be offered up). Whether his creators realized Bishop would suddenly become a foil to the entire 5-star tier is unknown, but that's what has happened.
    I find this especially punishing to those of us in single-5* champ MMR. I've gotten what in every other scenario would have been a stellar cascade against Gritty/Bishop teams, but since it was triggered by a full health, lvl 452 GRRR against the max-champ Bishop I got served up, he responded to every. single. match. in the cascade with his blasts and retal-killed my 5* on turn 2. I just had to laugh.
  • justsing
    justsing Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
    jp1 said:
    If every character that poses a challenge gets a nerf cry we are going to be in a very boring game world. Many solutions have been presented in this thread already. 
    There’s a difference between powerful and OP. Most top tier characters are powerful but not OP, the fun kind of challenging. Bishop is OP and not good for the game imo. I say this as someone who throws out (underleveled) Gritty Bishop on defense once I’m done with Sim.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    I certainly understand the frustration. The thing is that there are valid counters being offered up in this thread that aren’t 5 star teams. That alone means he isn’t on the level of Gambit. Don’t forget that you have to eat health packs as you climb with Bishop too, so having to eat a few to counter him seems reasonable and fair.

    If he were nerfed tomorrow there would still be a king of the hill that poses a challenge to some people, it’s the nature of the beast. It’s also the whole reason we have variety and something to strive for. If people get mad every time they make a great character then it is easier to just release duds, right? Then the rest of the people get angry because we aren’t getting interesting or useful additions.

    I only really get to use Bishop in Simulator so it wouldn’t ruin my game if he got nerfed, I would be pissed no doubt, but not too much would change. That said, he is the first 4* addition to be worth the chase for 5* rosters since Chavez and I think that’s a good thing. I wish there were more “Meta” characters to get excited about. Stripping them out of the game is just making things worse for everyone except the few top tier players who have to struggle harder to make their usual walk to the top. Balancing things out a little so everyone has a shot isn’t such a bad thing In my opinion. 

    Not to mention, they just released a 4* hard counter to Kitty/Rocket. He isn’t much for anything else, but he does negate that combo quite effectively. An argument could be made that a 4* toon that completely nullifies a top tier 5* meta is OP and needs a nerf, or we can all just find ways to deal with the game the best we can as it changes and evolves. I prefer the latter...and I don’t have Okoye/Thor to fall back on.

    All of that said, I’m just one player. I respect the opinion of those who disagree. I’m just trying to avoid another nerf echo chamber thread.

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    Let me clarify, I hate nerfs......

    Its not that the match is hard but 21 Blue AP gained on 1 move and a passive.  This is the norm for every match against him. 
    Okay, I see the point you are making here. However, if they all die with a bunch of blue AP...so what? For Bishop to do that kind of damage he needs to be boosted by Kitty/Rocket or Okoye. Without them he won’t be nearly as devastating. With them, the blue AP isn’t particularly useful unless Bishop is still alive. 

    If he was ubiquitous with a blue nuke there would be a different discussion to be had, he would also be an easier target though. 

    My counter argument is this... If you wanted to beat Gambit, you had one option and that was Gambit. There have been at least 5 examples of teams that can handle Bishop effectively. We are talking about a whole different thing. If a character on any given team can be effectively handled with multiple rosters, they aren’t breaking the game (again, in my opinion). 

    Is he top tier? A nuisance? Certainly.

    Its a bitter pill to swallow when these situations come up. For people with a deep healthy roster a nerf on Bishop isn’t going to sting as much...for a 4* or transitioning to 5* that relies on him heavily it might be a different story. In general I think it is wrong to have someone earn something and then take it away...except in extreme cases where there is no alternative, like Gambit.
  • furbear00000
    furbear00000 Posts: 188 Tile Toppler
    KGB said:
    Bishop/XPool/Peggy and boost 1 Blue.

    You don't do enough match damage on turn 1 for the enemy Bishop to jump in front so you can target Kitty (though your damage is tiny).  Your Bishop will jump in front on their turn and start generating Blue. Once you have 11 Blue (Bishop absorbing 2 attacks) then Peggy stuns enemy Kitty/Bishop and it should be easy from there on out (unless Rocket somehow matches all Peggy's CDs before she make more CD's).

    XPool's there to do more retal damage (which will make enemy Bishop jump to the front). But Peggy also ensures the enemy Bishop won't fire his blue since all enemy powers need more AP thanks to Peggy.

    Likely need a health pack for your Bishop if they get a big cascade.

    I used this team last season to go from 1800-2000 at the end of the season against those and other similar teams that use Rocket.

    KGB

    P.S. I don't have a really good working Okoye (3/4/2) but I've read that Okoye/XPool/Drax with boosted team ups (and making a team up match on turn 1) works really well to kill the enemy Bishop quickly.
    I’ve tried this maybe a dozen times and won once. Bishop either dies turn one or turn two from all the enemies Bishop retaliations b/c of XDP retaliations. 

    Its just a mess of back and forth damage turn one and everything screws up. Yet I’m getting destroyed by this team and losing point like mad...

    What am I doing wrong?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    Doesn't Bishop's passive stop gaining blue ap once he got 10 of them?

    Edit: or is it due to Thor's passive tiles destruction that turned into cascades?


  • KC_Hammer
    KC_Hammer Posts: 84 Match Maker
    I use Bishop/Kitty/Gamora. Without Rocket's tiles that team doesn't force their Bishop to the front, then your Bishop generates blue for Gamora's cheap stun twice to knock the entire other team out, generating 3 special tiles for Kitty to buff, then you just destroy their strikes when you can and keep them stunned. focusing on Kitty and Bishop.

    Alternately, you can stun once on turn 2, eat another hit on 3 to generate more blue, and then stun them again for one more strike or attack tile. 
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    KC_Hammer said:
    I use Bishop/Kitty/Gamora. Without Rocket's tiles that team doesn't force their Bishop to the front, then your Bishop generates blue for Gamora's cheap stun twice to knock the entire other team out, generating 3 special tiles for Kitty to buff, then you just destroy their strikes when you can and keep them stunned. focusing on Kitty and Bishop.

    Alternately, you can stun once on turn 2, eat another hit on 3 to generate more blue, and then stun them again for one more strike or attack tile. 
    I made the mistake of thinking this was a cupcake team once. Turns out it is pretty good defensively as well. I lost in pretty grand fashion. 
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,239 Chairperson of the Boards
    furbear00000 said:
    KGB said:
    Bishop/XPool/Peggy and boost 1 Blue.

    You don't do enough match damage on turn 1 for the enemy Bishop to jump in front so you can target Kitty (though your damage is tiny).  Your Bishop will jump in front on their turn and start generating Blue. Once you have 11 Blue (Bishop absorbing 2 attacks) then Peggy stuns enemy Kitty/Bishop and it should be easy from there on out (unless Rocket somehow matches all Peggy's CDs before she make more CD's).

    XPool's there to do more retal damage (which will make enemy Bishop jump to the front). But Peggy also ensures the enemy Bishop won't fire his blue since all enemy powers need more AP thanks to Peggy.

    Likely need a health pack for your Bishop if they get a big cascade.

    I used this team last season to go from 1800-2000 at the end of the season against those and other similar teams that use Rocket.

    KGB

    P.S. I don't have a really good working Okoye (3/4/2) but I've read that Okoye/XPool/Drax with boosted team ups (and making a team up match on turn 1) works really well to kill the enemy Bishop quickly.
    I’ve tried this maybe a dozen times and won once. Bishop either dies turn one or turn two from all the enemies Bishop retaliations b/c of XDP retaliations. 

    Its just a mess of back and forth damage turn one and everything screws up. Yet I’m getting destroyed by this team and losing point like mad...

    What am I doing wrong?
    What does your team look like? My Peggy is 290, Xpool 280 and Bishop 275. I have Peggy's Yellow at 3, Xpool Red at 3 and Bishop Yellow at 3.

    What do the enemy teams your facing look like? If you think this team is going to take down a champed 5* Kitty you are dreaming. I tend to target similarly leveled enemy teams (Rocket <300, Kitty <325 and never one with 5 Yellow).

    You should also be aware that you will need a health pack for Bishop as he's very likely to die since he's always jumping in front from the enemy strike / Bishop damage. But XPool/Peggy shouldn't be damaged too badly unless the AI gets a crazy cascade on turn 1 or 2 or you can't match any strikes. But the upside is you should only need 1 health pack per battle.

    My games tend to go:
    Turn 1 - Target kitty. The minor match damage does not trigger Bishop. Obviously you are trying to match away enemy strikes. On Enemy AI turn my Bishop jumps in front eats damage and generates 5 Blue (should also do damage) and Xpool lays down a retal CD. That triggers enemy Bishop for more damage against my Bishop but should net you 5 more Blue so you have 11.
    Turn 2 - Target Rocket and use Peggys Blue to stun enemy Bishop/Kitty for 3 turns.

    At this point your Bishop will be <half health so you hope to get 1 more counter punch of damage. After that it's all  XPools retals (let Peggy match). I target the stunned Bishop first so he's down faster from the retals and Peggy's Shields finish off or close to finish off Kitty.

    Obviously you should be prioritizing matching enemy strikes from turn 1 on so that after your Bishop is dead not too much damage gets done to Peggy/Xpool

    KGB
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    I actually think Bishop is decently balanced.  But like Rogue, you really have to rethink your strategy for that matchup.  It obvious you need a stunner,  but more than that, you need to flip the char build philosophy.  Go back to 4*+ with lower match damage and better power damage.  Run through your the 4* champ options.  2 lvl370 4+ and 1 5* champ is a really good combo against any 5* team 

    People are used to playing with big offensive strategy, but it’s just as viable to go with lower match damage chars with fast stuns.  

    It it is harder than switching from a special tile offense to charged tiles to web tile offense.  But in a real word situation, it just means play for ap and stun combos.

    i don’t disagree that it adds 2 to 3 turns per match,  but I don’t see that as more than an inconvience in the big scheme of play.



  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    KGB said:
    furbear00000 said:
     What do the enemy teams your facing look like? If you think this team is going to take down a champed 5* Kitty you are dreaming. I tend to target similarly leveled enemy teams (Rocket <300, Kitty <325 and never one with 5 Yellow).



    KGB
    I can’t even find teams this weak. I think I have too many 345-390 5*s on roster alongside my 1 champ. Right now for instance in Simulator, the Gritty Bishop I queued up (I’m at 973pts) is worth 75, and has:
    kitty: 453
    4ocket: 311
    Bishop: 295

    and this is a team I’d consider facing for being “reasonably” leveled.

    For my opponents, clearing the strikes via Main Event is my only option. At that point, even highly champed Kitty's are slower than Gho5t Rider...
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,456 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    jp1 said:
    The rockett said:
    Let me clarify, I hate nerfs......

    Its not that the match is hard but 21 Blue AP gained on 1 move and a passive.  This is the norm for every match against him. 
    Okay, I see the point you are making here. However, if they all die with a bunch of blue AP...so what? For Bishop to do that kind of damage he needs to be boosted by Kitty/Rocket or Okoye. Without them he won’t be nearly as devastating. With them, the blue AP isn’t particularly useful unless Bishop is still alive. 

    He doesn't need to be boosted if you catch the wrong cascade, which is what The rockett was describing from that bit about Thor's passive. I see this with my GRRR all the time on cascades. If you're doing above-threshold damage on several of the cascade matches, you're getting slapped back for each one. So in the previous team I mentioned, with the lvl 295 Bishop, he (unboosted) is going to do 4,381 damage every time he takes 2086 damage.

    Using my own roster as an example -My lvl 452 GRRR has base stats of:
    y: 93
    R: 652
    blue: 85
    p: 78
    G: 733
    Black: 570
    TU: 369
    Cr: 4.0x

     This means I can trigger that retal with a green match-3 (2199), and almost do it on a red match 3 (1956). If my GRRR cascades into more than 1 green match, or a red match 4, all that damage is treated like a seperate pool, and he'll clap back for every match involved. 4 of those, and you're getting up to 16k retal damage without factoring in any strikes. Add in the 7x174 strikes that lvl 311 rocket has to each one of those retals, and you're right there at 20k.
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,239 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2019
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    KGB said:
    furbear00000 said:
     What do the enemy teams your facing look like? If you think this team is going to take down a champed 5* Kitty you are dreaming. I tend to target similarly leveled enemy teams (Rocket <300, Kitty <325 and never one with 5 Yellow).



    KGB
    I can’t even find teams this weak. I think I have too many 345-390 5*s on roster alongside my 1 champ. Right now for instance in Simulator, the Gritty Bishop I queued up (I’m at 973pts) is worth 75, and has:
    kitty: 453
    4ocket: 311
    Bishop: 295

    and this is a team I’d consider facing for being “reasonably” leveled.

    For my opponents, clearing the strikes via Main Event is my only option. At that point, even highly champed Kitty's are slower than Gho5t Rider...
    All my 5* are capped at L300 so I'm not facing the teams you are.

    I wonder if you'd have better luck swapping Howard for Peggy and using whatever 3rd you prefer so you might go with Bishop/Howard and your 5* Ghost Rider. At 5 Blue covers Howard will not only stun the enemy Bishop for 3 turns, he'll also remove 5 enemy strike tiles which will stop the Kitty buff train. If things get really desperate Howard can potentially win the match in invisible mode.

    KGB

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