Event Duration: An Open Plea for our Sanity

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boopers
boopers Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
in MtGPQ General Discussion
So, I'm probably not going to post any terribly new info here, but this is the very first discussion I've started on the forums... if you want an idea of how important this is.

The 5 node events (notable B4T) are entirely too long, grindy, and disheartening... and frankly causing the game to lose players.  I know this is a common complaint, so I will offer up some data I track to help put this in perspective.

Event coalition placement and % scores: B4T 5/21 compared to 6/4:
2nd:  95.21% / 87.70%  (-7.51%)
6th:  90.78% / 80.96%  (-9.82%)
10th:  84.74% / 75.73%  (-9.01%)
16th:  70.38% / 62.43%  (-7.95%)
25th:  62.41% / 54.96%  (-7.45%)

While only one sampling... this is a very clear and dramatic amount of disengagement.  Part of it is that the event is harder now for certain, which only means that it takes longer to play matches.

Why is this happening?  Some hypothesis:
- buggy servers, cause players to not want to play
- New standard combined with secondary objectives made matches take a lot longer (good riddance cycling, but the effect is loss of many quick match strategies)
- boredom (playing each of 5 nodes 3 times -- 48 total matches at an average of 10min per match is 8 hours... at best)
- rage quitting (my group of coalitions lost at least 7 players that quit directly because of B4T last time)
- lack of our ability to save event decks (rebuilding takes a lot of added time)

But the real reason... it doesn't appear anyone over on D3 or Octagon cares how their event set-up is ruining morale.  Which is unfair, because I know they do.  But it doesn't feel like that is true because we keep seeing events that suck away our life.

I actually like the B4T event matches quite well... they are challenging and each x.3 match has a unique feel to it.  But there is just too much of it.

Solution?  Just make 5 node events shorter. 
- for B4T, just cap play at 2 complete rotations of matches on each node, for only 30 matches.  That is more than enough.
- for RtO: cap the event at 30 matches (6 matches per node)
- AWR is good, albeit it a bit easy

I think the community would be much happier with shorter coalition events.

Please... PLEASE... reduce the number of matches in the upcoming B4T at a minimum.  The game is losing players many experienced players over the grind.
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Comments

  • James13
    James13 Posts: 665 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
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    I'm of a different opinion.  I live for these PvE events including B4T.  HoD and other overly long 3k bracket PvE events make me lose my mind.  RtO is the closest to a fun PvP event that I have experienced.

    Not everyone can be pleased all the time.  Your proposed changes would diminish my enjoyment of the game significantly.  I'm not going to argue with you, but would say your changes would make me less likely to continue to play.
  • Mburn7
    Mburn7 Posts: 3,427 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The real issue with BoFT is the bugs and server problems, not the event itself (for the most part).

    The Elenda fight would be a lot faster if they fixed the boss support's bug, and the Zacama fight would be easier if they fixed the bug with that fight too (although much less vital, I guess).  The other fights would go quicker if you didn't have to sit through 10 min of animations every time something happened.

    The other thing that makes this event take so long is the relative difficulty of the first 2 nodes.  In the past, the first node or 2 (depending on if the total is 3 or 5) were super easy fights that a top player could blow through quickly without worry.  The pirate and dinosaur nodes on BoFT are surprisingly difficult at times (especially with the stupid secondaries on Beckett), which make the event feel longer overall.
  • boopers
    boopers Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
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    James13 said:
    I'm of a different opinion.  I live for these PvE events including B4T.  HoD and other overly long 3k bracket PvE events make me lose my mind.  RtO is the closest to a fun PvE event that I have experienced.

    Not everyone can be pleased all the time.  Your proposed changes would diminish my enjoyment of the game significantly.  I'm not going to argue with you, but would say your changes would make me less likely to continue to play.
    I'm not sure I follow you... HoD is decisively shorter than B4T... 39 matches against opponents with only ~130 max health compared to 48 matches where half the matches have well over ~130.

    And I agree with you, I enjoy the actual B4T event style and design better.  I have 140 active players in our group, and most of them hate the grind... not the event design.

  • boopers
    boopers Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
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    Mburn7 said:
    The real issue with BoFT is the bugs and server problems, not the event itself (for the most part).

    The Elenda fight would be a lot faster if they fixed the boss support's bug, and the Zacama fight would be easier if they fixed the bug with that fight too (although much less vital, I guess).  The other fights would go quicker if you didn't have to sit through 10 min of animations every time something happened.

    The other thing that makes this event take so long is the relative difficulty of the first 2 nodes.  In the past, the first node or 2 (depending on if the total is 3 or 5) were super easy fights that a top player could blow through quickly without worry.  The pirate and dinosaur nodes on BoFT are surprisingly difficult at times (especially with the stupid secondaries on Beckett), which make the event feel longer overall.
    I don't think the event design needs any adjustments other than bug fixes you mentioned.  It is enjoyable even with harder 1.x and 2.x matches.  I think we just need a bit less of it.  two full rotations through each node is plenty of time playing one event.

  • bk1234
    bk1234 Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    This is an interesting time for this thread because one of my top 10 teams has 2 on vacation this week. Last week, I had tons of volunteers to play up -- then B4T was announced and I practically have to beg people to play up this weekend.

    I think there are a lot of factors here that cause people to quit or not engage.

    The grind itself is, of course, one. I generally start events on Saturday morning (EST) and going in and seeing a huge pile of nodes is arduous -- it usually takes me until late Sunday night to catch up -- I couldn't imagine what it is like for someone who has a job on weekends or family commitments, or other hobbies, or basically anything. 

    Another consideration: Events like this ending on Monday is a problem -- and causes a lot of people to quit. It's not so bad for Europe, Asia and Australia -- however, if the 20 coalitions in TP9 are a good sampling, we can deduce that the majority of the player base is in the US. For EST, you wake up on Monday with 2 full charges across -- that is 6-10 nodes to play, easily 1.5-2 hours of playtime -- along with work, getting kids ready for school, etc. For PST, you probably wake up with 1 node across, but with the event ending before your lunch hour starts, you literally have to wake up an hour early to clear your nodes. I've said it a million times -- no one should ever have to set an alarm clock to play a game. 

    If we are going to play long, grindy events like this, why can't they start on Thursday and end on Sunday? (With an individual event starting on Sunday)

    Another reason people quit -- we are bored with these events. The first day, they're cool -- we build new decks, try new things -- the second time the nodes come around, great -- now we can fine-tune and go at it again -- by the third and fourth time, it's more "Well, gonna do this again." This is even worse in PvE events like B4T because we've been playing it for awhile now, there are a few nodes that pretty much everyone agrees have horrible objectives we don't want to play once, much less 4 times, and it's just the same 5 things over and over and over. For the same prizes -- speaking for the masses (because I, personally, like 1000 orbs), why put in the effort for yet another 2 Immortal Suns. 

    However, I want to play devil's advocate for a minute -- and I am specifically talking about the PvP events -- RtO and HoD --- what if the rewards are that good because they go so long -- you are rewarded for victory and endurance?

    Since traditionally PvP has been shorter and rewards have been lower, are we willing to sacrifice the huge payout for a shorter event?

    I think this is an important point that needs to be discussed, and am interested in what people have to say -- it's my experience, especially with top coalitions, the answer to that would be no. 
  • DBJones
    DBJones Posts: 803 Critical Contributor
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    I would absolutely prefer more short events with reduced rewards. They just need to add some non-coalition Standard PvP events to keep the number of crystals we can get around the same level. Long events are just an awful grind, especially when they start with more than a couple charges. Personally, having charges sitting around makes me anxious, but trying to blast through them all makes me hate the game.
  • ninjark
    ninjark Posts: 50 Match Maker
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    I agree that Battle of the Four Tribes is just too much at 45-60 minutes a round (going for objectives) and having 10 total rounds (50 battles!) to play. 
    That's far too much of a time investment and I'll be passing on playing B4T events beyond casually if no adjustments are made.

    I feel the sweet spot for events is ~30 battles, 46 hours long and having 24 hours until your nodes fill.

    Here's how recent coalition events would look using those parameters:

    5-node (RtO/B4T) 
    1/4 charges.  5 refreshes.  6 battles on each node.  30 total battles. 
    (Alternatively, 30 battles could be achieved with 3/5 starting charges and 12-hour refreshes!  We'd have a 10 hour final refresh!)

    3-node (HoD)
    5/8 charges.  5 refreshes.  10 battles on each node.  30 total battles.

    2-node (AWR)
    I feel this one is OK going 70 hours since it's a much lighter load each refresh.  20 total battles.

    As stated above, let's have AWR (or all weekend) events end on Sunday, not Monday.
  • HarryMason
    HarryMason Posts: 136 Tile Toppler
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    It seems to me that splitting the difference would be good. I greatly dislike the things about b4t that are the common gripes, but not everybody does. At the same rate I really dislike awr because it's so short that it seems pointless. I know a lot of players want better prizes for less work , but awr is just ridiculous . It would be fine for a weekday event , but it feels like a coalition version of ai . We can all pretty much agree that 3 nodes is fine. Maybe not ideal as some want more and some don't actually want to play . I don't hear 3 being too much very often, so just leave it at 3. I also really hope that these perma supports aren't the new enrage , because they're just annoying more often than they are fun .
  • Kinesia
    Kinesia Posts: 1,621 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Actually it's VERY bad for Australia for anyone who works. Having a huge event still going through the _entire_ work day on Monday is incredibly bad. There is hardly any space to fit things in and finish it at all.
  • Gabrosin
    Gabrosin Posts: 259 Mover and Shaker
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    Bo4T is a really great event, perhaps the best one they've designed yet, with a ton of unique opponents and several difficult challenges.  That said, it is indeed an unrelenting grind.  The two-complete-rotations idea is a good one... could start everyone with two charges at noon EST Friday and add one more every twelve hours, with the last one dropping at noon on Sunday and giving 10-12 hours until the event ends to wrap it up.
  • Volrak
    Volrak Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
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    Kinesia said:
    Actually it's VERY bad for Australia for anyone who works. Having a huge event still going through the _entire_ work day on Monday is incredibly bad. There is hardly any space to fit things in and finish it at all.
    This isn't true - I'm in that category and it's actually pretty close to ideal for me (and there's only a small range of event finish times for which that'd be true).  But if you don't get much free time on Monday evening I can see how it'd be a problem.

    What's certainly true is the event system is pretty much guaranteed to cause time issues for many people.  There were event timings at some point last year which were pathological enough for me that I ended up regularly not playing the last one or two charges.  Fixes like "start Thursday and end Sunday" might help some, or even many, but are almost certain to cause problems for others.  The only things I've seen proposed that would be a real fix for everyone are to either significantly increase the time between final recharge and event end, or to have multiple event timeslots and let players choose the one that's most convenient.

    boopers said:
    Event coalition placement and % scores: B4T 5/21 compared to 6/4:
    2nd:  95.21% / 87.70%  (-7.51%)
    6th:  90.78% / 80.96%  (-9.82%)
    10th:  84.74% / 75.73%  (-9.01%)
    16th:  70.38% / 62.43%  (-7.95%)
    25th:  62.41% / 54.96%  (-7.45%)

    While only one sampling... this is a very clear and dramatic amount of disengagement.  Part of it is that the event is harder now for certain
    I don't agree that reduced scores clearly imply disengagement.  A changed Standard is expected to lower scores at first even if the power level stays the same, because people were very familiar with what worked in the old Standard, and are still learning the new one.  And as you suggest, the power level post-cycling has dropped (it's harder now).  But I agree with the conclusion anyway.  I think most people would prefer the most grindy events to be shortened.
  • gogol666
    gogol666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
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    I'm advocating for shorter and more different events. If that means lower rewards then give us more events
  • Bil
    Bil Posts: 831 Critical Contributor
    edited June 2018
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        I think those stats illustrate the general feeling. Some players dont even try to complete progression because of the boredom of the event. Shorter events, but more of them would be great.
        The new set of events (AWR and AJTH) are interesting in terms of design/lenghth, but the last fights should be more challenging, in particular for AJTH where the players unable to defeat them can still repeat the first two fights until they hit 65 points. 
  • EDHdad
    EDHdad Posts: 609 Critical Contributor
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    At this point, I don't even understand the 6 to 8 hour charge refreshes at all.

    Just let people play the game when they have time to play the game.
  • Mark_Tedin
    Mark_Tedin Posts: 167 Tile Toppler
    edited June 2018
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    My coalition lost sereval important players too because this. After the cycling rotation, the level of the cards decreased a lot and some matches lasted more than an hour. we play against bugs, indestructible gems, lifelink / removal decks, 400 HP bosses, freeze ... We missed our weekend and we have to wake up early on Monday to complete the matches. Our quality of life has greatly diminished. BoFT has lost the fun and has unfortunately become a job. So as not to alter the structure of the event, the solution would be to reduce the refresh for 12h. The event time could be decreased from Friday to Sunday. This event is currently unbearable.
  • boopers
    boopers Posts: 175 Tile Toppler
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    yeah... I don't really like the azor approach to making the battle's more challenging. It's one thing to create a special rule on a particular match... it's another thing to make the AI play by a different set of rules.  The Bolas boss battle was an instance where the deck was designed to be flawed... once you knew the flaw, it was beatable by anyone... but depending on your card collection, it could be 3 minutes, or an hour.  I don't think that's a good thing.  the void was well designed, you can strategize against it, but I think newer players can still beat in a reasonable amount of time once they know how to expose the weakness.

    PVE matches should all be beatable in a reasonable amount of time if you ignore secondary requirements. what should make them a challenge and possibly take longer is the secondary objectives.  The Tezzeret boss was a good example.  I could beat him with a mostly uncommon deck, but I never got the vehicle objective because when I tried to do that it became much more difficult to win.  
  • gogol666
    gogol666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
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    @Brigby is there an official position about this thread?
    Is there a reason to give us fewer and longer events?
    Can we scale down the longest (boft, rto, hod) and add more non coalition content?
    If there is always something running there will be always a lot of players playing. Do you remember quick battle?
  • gogol666
    gogol666 Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
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    Sorry to revamp this, but after all the good news and seeing that the community is listened to, I'd like to have an official answer to this topic too:
    Do you prefer us to grind fewer and longer events or can we get something shorter and more frequent?
    @Brigby what's your call here?

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