PvE on a Schedule - What’s the fix?

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  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
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    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

    Could you compare these numbers to same data from a couple pve before HoD, to possibly compensate for people fleeing cl9 because of (1) unappealing 5ess, (2) no tapping to safe them or (3) forseeing problems with inhuman royal family...
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,924 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Bowgentle said:

    God, no.

    Instead of annoying some people like it is now, you'd annoy ALL THE PEOPLE?

    Not a good idea.

    I need to be able to plan my PVE times, settle for ONE time.
    The last thing I want is to have a varying schedule for PVE.
    Absolutely agree. Unless it was a once a year shift around DLS time I say no to this idea. I like knowing when PVE ends so I can work it into my schedule accordingly. Plus can you imagine all the threads/posts bugging Brigby for updates on start


    This was meant under a progression based system so placement was irrelevant. 
    I believe I quoted the wrong person (fixed).  My response was about the internal clock being used to time clears and that timing being how we determine placement.  That's the idea I hate.

    I also hate all rewards being tied to progression, but I've already laid out my reasons for that, and others have as well several times.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Smart80 said:

    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

    Could you compare these numbers to same data from a couple pve before HoD, to possibly compensate for people fleeing cl9 because of (1) unappealing 5ess, (2) no tapping to safe them or (3) forseeing problems with inhuman royal family...
    I will see if i can get get the data of Web.  Then the question will be about GR as the 5E. 

    I should also say that the last bracket in all slices would have between 1 to 999 people.  
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ZeroKarma said:
    Quebbster said:
    OJSP said:
    Considering we have been trialling the points system a lot, I actually think there's no harm in trialling more time slices. All the arguments about whether having more time slices is good or bad for the game is all conjectures.

    I think they should just pick one 3 day event, one 4 day event and one 7 day event spread in a couple of months and trial 6 slices spread 4 hours apart. Why multiple events including a 7 day event? It would give people an idea on how to plan their week ahead. If the developers think they are giving out inappropriate amount of rewards, then consider the trial a fail and scrap the idea. At least we could say that we've tried it.

    However, I think we should address one issue at a time. If the issue with tapping is not resolved, then opening more slices would likely lead to more tappers spreading to different brackets. And, it's not actually a fix for playing on a schedule.
    The 5pm time slice flips two times maximum in most events. That clearly shows that its largely inconvenient for most people who play this game. Simply push it back a few hours and make it more convenient for more players. No harm in a 9pm & 11pm slice. Most people would appreciate that. 

    It's impossible to know which time slice you are talking about since we don't know what time slice you are in. I know the second slice ends in 5PM GMT, so it could be that one. The third slice ends at 5PM EST, so that's also a possibility. The last slice ends at 5 PM too in some islands in the Pacific ocean.

    I am not saying you are wrong or anything, it's just that if you identify a single end time as problematic without giving us a bigger Picture it is hard to suggest any Changes. Any Changes will make things better for some and worse for some. Even people within the same time zone have very different availability and may prefer different slices.

    So....it’s 5 o’clock somewhere?

    It's usually 5 o'clock somewhere, yes. Excellent summary.
  • animaniactoo
    animaniactoo Posts: 486 Mover and Shaker
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    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

    Actually, your data here proves the opposite of your conclusion to me.

    There are currently 18 brackets worth of people distributed across a spread that many people are choosing a non-optimal time for. There is room for an entire extra time slice if some people move from the two most populated slices while leaving plenty for those slices. While adding only a single 1-999 bracket.

    Now it is true that you can't predict what the distribution is going to be - nothing says it would even be probable to work out to 3/2/3/4/3/3. BUT, it is probable that it would not be worse than 4/1/3/2/6/2. In which case, at least testing it is worthwhile to find out.

    The data we would actually need to make a determination on this is the bracket population in each SCL AND how long a player currently lasts in that SCL. If there's an SCL that's underpopulated, it might make that particular SCL more rewarding than intended, but it could be a worthwhile tradeoff for resolving something that's proved to be an issue for many people over the course of the game (and therefore in most of the other SCLs)
  • The Viceroy Returns
    The Viceroy Returns Posts: 492 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2018
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    Daiches said:

    You are misremembering what Mag2 did. His change was from placing 5 blue tiles to 3 on his purple ability.
    Unless you are talking about a version before I started 1240 days ago? The first nerf Mag2 got was the move to equip only 2 AP boosts instead of 3, so that he needed an extra match 3.
    As for Winfinite, I remember fighting the example I gave of 392 Maggia during the PX release event :)
    Was talking about the original 3 Star Magneto, not 2.

    3 Star had a totally different power set:
    - Blue = Place 2 Blue tiles anywhere for only 5 AP
    - Red = Similar to current Red, but significantly weaker damage and tile destruction but it was only 2 AP!!!
    - Purple (yes, Purple, even though his Match Damage was Yellow) = Similar to current Blue, but did more damage

    It's probably in his Character post if you track back far enough (maybe didn't transition over into this forum, not sure how far back this goes).  Sometimes original versions of characters are left on their pages somewhere for history.

    This led to the famous "Patchneto" teams.  Strike tile generation back then was not nearly as prevalent, and Patch's were among the best.  So you'd cast Patch's Green, then go crazy with Magenot's Blue, making Match 5's all over the place.  Giving them Strike tiles with Patch's Green didn't matter, as you could just replace them with basic Blue tiles with Magento, or just get several free turns on a row with Blue Match 5''s and take them out before they even got a chance to use them.

    Good times...
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

    Actually, your data here proves the opposite of your conclusion to me.

    There are currently 18 brackets worth of people distributed across a spread that many people are choosing a non-optimal time for. There is room for an entire extra time slice if some people move from the two most populated slices while leaving plenty for those slices. While adding only a single 1-999 bracket.

    Now it is true that you can't predict what the distribution is going to be - nothing says it would even be probable to work out to 3/2/3/4/3/3. BUT, it is probable that it would not be worse than 4/1/3/2/6/2. In which case, at least testing it is worthwhile to find out.

    The data we would actually need to make a determination on this is the bracket population in each SCL AND how long a player currently lasts in that SCL. If there's an SCL that's underpopulated, it might make that particular SCL more rewarding than intended, but it could be a worthwhile tradeoff for resolving something that's proved to be an issue for many people over the course of the game (and therefore in most of the other SCLs)
    Nobody expect D3/Demi have this info and I would not except it given out. 
  • Kojubat
    Kojubat Posts: 142 Tile Toppler
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    Smart80 said:
    ZeroKarma said:
    Smart80 said:
    ZeroKarma said:
    I had a discussion with alliance mates and the general feeling is that PvE now is better than it ever has been.

    - Play time has dramatically decreased
    - playing in a chunk once a day on a timer compared to 3 or even 8(!) times a day on a timer
    - no rubberbanding
    - no roster-based death scaling
    - better rewards 

    That isn’t to say it couldn’t be better. But the evolution has been step-by-step and has been very positive. I am ok with continuing that trend.
    Agree.

    possible next step: shift slice times from event to event, like they do with mid week end pvp, compared to the other 2.

    it wont be good for everyone each event, but all will get ideal times once every events. And will take some getting used to it, instead blindly picking slice, but in the end could be fair for all i think.
    I’d be fine with an additional slice or two if that makes sense. Not sure about a complete shift back and forth because it would confuse the heck out of a bunch of people and you risk alienating a large base that is ok with the timing and depending on the slices, benefitting a small group of people.

    Bowgentle said:

    God, no.

    Instead of annoying some people like it is now, you'd annoy ALL THE PEOPLE?

    Not a good idea.

    I need to be able to plan my PVE times, settle for ONE time.
    The last thing I want is to have a varying schedule for PVE.

    Just to be sure, i didnt mean varying times within an event, just from event to event. Between the time preview pops up and start of the event, you would have plenty time to pick a time. It doesnt have to be all that confusing. In pvp it isnt, is it?
    Having said that, I do prefer stready planning as well.

    So I’m playing little devil’s advocate, being quite content with current setup actually... mainly just spitballing an option, but first impressions arent very good.. lol

    Additional slices will cause waiting longer for flips and less of them, so reward wise it wont matter much probably..
    I would find the most difficult piece of varying start times is the event following a character release. There already is an issue (not having a required character) going from a later slice to an early slice in this situation, but a person makes that decision/mistake in a consistent environment currently.
  • animaniactoo
    animaniactoo Posts: 486 Mover and Shaker
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    So I just talked to a good friend that tracks all of the flips for all the slices in SL 9.  Now he might have this for all SL from SL 7 to SL 9.  I know others have said this, but there are not enough players to add more brackets.  This is how many brackets in just SL 9 for HOD.


    Slice 1:  5 brackets

    Slice 2:  2 brackets

    Slice 3:  3 brackets

    Slice 4:  3 brackets

    Slice 5:  5 brackets


    As you can see, this would spread more people out and therefore you might not even get a flip in some of these slices.  This would not be a good thing.  Now you could say more people would move up to 9, but I don't think that would be the case. 

    Actually, your data here proves the opposite of your conclusion to me.

    There are currently 18 brackets worth of people distributed across a spread that many people are choosing a non-optimal time for. There is room for an entire extra time slice if some people move from the two most populated slices while leaving plenty for those slices. While adding only a single 1-999 bracket.

    Now it is true that you can't predict what the distribution is going to be - nothing says it would even be probable to work out to 3/2/3/4/3/3. BUT, it is probable that it would not be worse than 4/1/3/2/6/2. In which case, at least testing it is worthwhile to find out.

    The data we would actually need to make a determination on this is the bracket population in each SCL AND how long a player currently lasts in that SCL. If there's an SCL that's underpopulated, it might make that particular SCL more rewarding than intended, but it could be a worthwhile tradeoff for resolving something that's proved to be an issue for many people over the course of the game (and therefore in most of the other SCLs)
    Nobody expect D3/Demi have this info and I would not except it given out. 
    I agree - but that's why I'm saying that based on the info we *do* have, it's certainly worth testing. The argument against it would solely be info that we don't have our hands on and are unlikely to get.

    In the meantime, based on the info we do have (and I believe it's also tracked for SCL 7 and SCL 8 - can you get that info? It would at least get us more of a picture), I continue to advocate for making an adjustment to the current system to address something that has been brought up repeatedly as an issue for a significant minority of the players.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    My perception is that it's still mainly about players who thinks that the time slices available are not good/perfect/advantageous enough for them, and they perceived that if they could get a better/perfect time slice, they could have gotten the top placement rewards instead of top 20, 50 or 100 placement rewards. This could be one of the reasons why we have people petitioning for full progression rewards and shifting placement rewards into progression for every PvE. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen unless D3 decided that they have made too much profits (not sales/revenues) from the players. Let's take a look at the top placement rewards for SCL 9:

    7000 iso, 175 HP, 2LT, 3 ET and 2 HT + previous rank covers. Can you imagine everyone in SCL 9 getting these extra rewards as part of progression? Every players would be happy of course. If you reduce the rewards, the top players won't be happy. 

    I think another problem is some players throwing words like "many players" or "most players" combined with <insert perceived positive benefits to the players or D3> in their pitch to support their proposed change. If you can quantify the number of players that your "many" and "most" refers to, it would be helpful to you. If you can't quantify it, you are making things up. 
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,930 Chairperson of the Boards
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    My perception is that it's still mainly about players who thinks that the time slices available are not good/perfect/advantageous enough for them, and they perceived that if they could get a better/perfect time slice, they could have gotten the top placement rewards instead of top 20, 50 or 100 placement rewards. This could be one of the reasons why we have people petitioning for full progression rewards and shifting placement rewards into progression for every PvE. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen unless D3 decided that they have made too much profits (not sales/revenues) from the players. Let's take a look at the top placement rewards for SCL 9:

    7000 iso, 175 HP, 2LT, 3 ET and 2 HT + previous rank covers. Can you imagine everyone in SCL 9 getting these extra rewards as part of progression? Every players would be happy of course. If you reduce the rewards, the top players won't be happy. 

    I think another problem is some players throwing words like "many players" or "most players" combined with <insert perceived positive benefits to the players or D3> in their pitch to support their proposed change. If you can quantify the number of players that your "many" and "most" refers to, it would be helpful to you. If you can't quantify it, you are making things up. 
    I'm afraid I don't fit into that assumption. The time slices actually work out fine for me for the most part. I enjoy the game for what it is but I am not afraid to imagine that it could be so much more. 
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
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    OJSP said:
    The 5pm time slice flips two times maximum in most events. That clearly shows that its largely inconvenient for most people who play this game. Simply push it back a few hours and make it more convenient for more players. No harm in a 9pm & 11pm slice. Most people would appreciate that. 
    I assume you're talking about slice 2 (5pm GMT).. Actually it's a good slice to play if people live in East Asia and West part of Australia.
    Well still, considering how few times it flips, its clearly a small percentage of people who it works for. 
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Quebbster said:
    OJSP said:
    Considering we have been trialling the points system a lot, I actually think there's no harm in trialling more time slices. All the arguments about whether having more time slices is good or bad for the game is all conjectures.

    I think they should just pick one 3 day event, one 4 day event and one 7 day event spread in a couple of months and trial 6 slices spread 4 hours apart. Why multiple events including a 7 day event? It would give people an idea on how to plan their week ahead. If the developers think they are giving out inappropriate amount of rewards, then consider the trial a fail and scrap the idea. At least we could say that we've tried it.

    However, I think we should address one issue at a time. If the issue with tapping is not resolved, then opening more slices would likely lead to more tappers spreading to different brackets. And, it's not actually a fix for playing on a schedule.
    The 5pm time slice flips two times maximum in most events. That clearly shows that its largely inconvenient for most people who play this game. Simply push it back a few hours and make it more convenient for more players. No harm in a 9pm & 11pm slice. Most people would appreciate that. 

    It's impossible to know which time slice you are talking about since we don't know what time slice you are in. I know the second slice ends in 5PM GMT, so it could be that one. The third slice ends at 5PM EST, so that's also a possibility. The last slice ends at 5 PM too in some islands in the Pacific ocean.

    I am not saying you are wrong or anything, it's just that if you identify a single end time as problematic without giving us a bigger Picture it is hard to suggest any Changes. Any Changes will make things better for some and worse for some. Even people within the same time zone have very different availability and may prefer different slices.

    Yes, I'm referring to the second slice. It flips so few times compared to the other slices so it would appear that its not much use to people, no matter where in the world they are. 
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2018
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    Fight4thedream
    • No competition would be real boring I think
    • No alliance competition at all? 
    • RNG based node rewards, even to get tokens seems a real bad idea.
    • Not sure i understand the scoring factors, but starting health should be as high as possible, to up health pack sales? Bye bye Thor/DD...
    • Paying to play more than 4 nodes?

    I apologize for not reading on past the “boss node” part, but this sounds absolutely horrible.

  • LXSandman
    LXSandman Posts: 196 Tile Toppler
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    Hey fight,

      That post was pretty amazing.  I would suggest you make a whole new topic just so it gets the reading it should.  I think it's a good idea, but I feel like it might be too complicated for casual players to understand.

      The dev's want to maximize casual players, and if they don't understand how the point system works they will probably play less.

      I like it though!
  • IceHockey333
    IceHockey333 Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
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    I think another problem is some players throwing words like "many players" or "most players" combined with <insert perceived positive benefits to the players or D3> in their pitch to support their proposed change. If you can quantify the number of players that your "many" and "most" refers to, it would be helpful to you. If you can't quantify it, you are making things up. 
    That is actually the main problem of most of the gnashing of teeth that pervades a message board about a game.

    People assume that everyone else feels the same way they do, that the game will die unless their personal tastes are met.  They don't ever seem to be able to shake that and be realistic about the actual conditions of the community at large.

    Not a problem, just the way things are.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,930 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Smart80 said:
    Fight4thedream
    • No competition would be real boring I think
    • No alliance competition at all? 
    • RNG based node rewards, even to get tokens seems a real bad idea.
    • Not sure i understand the scoring factors, but starting health should be as high as possible, to up health pack sales? Bye bye Thor/DD...
    • Paying to play more than 4 nodes?

    I apologize for not reading on past the “boss node” part, but this sounds absolutely horrible.

    No worries! I am probably not explaining it very well but we all have our personal tastes and interests. Actually I do believe Thor would do quite well under this system but part of the goal is to diversify the 5* so that you have some that are PvE specific and some that are PvP specific and a few that do well with both. 

    Also to be clear, you wouldn't be paying for 4 nodes. You would have access to all nodes. You would only be able to make 4 attempts on each node and then you would have to start paying for the last three. I figured if people are willing to shield in LRs and in SIM early in the season, there will definitely be people willing to pay to unlock a node for more chances at better rewards.

    LXSandman said:
    Hey fight,

      That post was pretty amazing.  I would suggest you make a whole new topic just so it gets the reading it should.  I think it's a good idea, but I feel like it might be too complicated for casual players to understand.

      The dev's want to maximize casual players, and if they don't understand how the point system works they will probably play less.

      I like it though!
    Thanks for the kind words! That is actually something I am also concerned about. After hearing why 1*Spidey got changed, it definitely is a legitimate issue. However, my hope is that since 1* get automatically get 4x multiplier with use and since the calculations are displayed at the end of clearing the node that casual and newer players would be eased into understanding the basic scoring system. 

    It's one of the reasons I felt it imperative to keep the basic progression rewards as is so that they don't feel they are missing out on their rewards. Additionally, the lower CL levels should have a relatively easier time at hitting goal posts than the higher levels, although that will vary with each players roster and know-how. 

    But it is true, that it could be potentially confusing if not implemented and explained well.
  • acescracked
    acescracked Posts: 1,197 Chairperson of the Boards
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    PVE should have 2.5 hour refreshs.