PvE on a Schedule - What’s the fix?

Options
1234579

Comments

  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    just remove brackets.
    Change rewards from 1-10 to say top 1%
    etc...
    they give the same percentage of rewards currently. no more bracket sniping.
    Add more slices
    It eliminates bracket sniping, but makes it even more important to join at the beginning to get the top placement. Anyone joining later would automatically get penalised despite playing as optimal as they could, because their points total wouldn’t be as high as those who start at the beginning.
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    just remove brackets.
    Change rewards from 1-10 to say top 1%
    etc...
    they give the same percentage of rewards currently. no more bracket sniping.
    Add more slices
    It eliminates bracket sniping, but makes it even more important to join at the beginning to get the top placement. Anyone joining later would automatically get penalised despite playing as optimal as they could, because their points total wouldn’t be as high as those who start at the beginning.
    How would that make is more important to join early?  This wouldn’t change the optimal game at all (except for the add more brackets part) but would penalize sniping which frankly should be penalized.  
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Options
    broll said:
    How would that make is more important to join early?  This wouldn’t change the optimal game at all (except for the add more brackets part) but would penalize sniping which frankly should be penalized.  
    Why should sniping be penalized- more than it already is?  And I say more than it already is, because you risk losing sub rewards, node rewards and/or awesome progression rewards for the potential of T5 or T10 placement rewards, which is of course amplified the longer you wait to join. 

    I see nothing wrong with an alliance buddy letting me know, “hey, 4.8 just flipped!”.

    Funny bracket-sniping story and easily my “worst moment of the day” yesterday, was my alliance mate saying just that and me reading too fast and not noticing he was talking about PVP. As a perennial T5/T10 player that really sucks (came in at 877!) given who the reward is. I’m not crying about it though- I’m in it for the duck anyway! On to the next event. Treadmill never stops lol. 
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Options
    I dont understand people’s problem with bracket sniping either. If you want, its not that hard to get the info, if you try. It really only hurts your own alli score if you ask me...

    Removing brackets and making rewards percentage based, instead of on rank, is much more unfair imo. Slice 1 and 5 appear to have much much more casual player, so the top 1% is a lot bigger, which doesnt seem a fair distribution of rewards, right?


    But most of all: please, please dont bring back Gauntlet type boredom..
  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
    But that doesn’t fix the problem of playing pve on schedule  when playing competitively (the title of the thread).
    It wasn't meant to address the issue of playing on a schedule. It addresses the issue of bracket dilution which would happen if we add more time slices. Adding more time slices, kinda addresses the issue in a stupid sideways kind of way. Still on a schedule, but now a better chance one of those schedules actually works for you.

    Removing the schedule is super easy, just remove point regeneration. done

    This leads to other issues of course, like Ties, we tried this and everyone complained. Instead of solving the issue of too many ties, they decided to go back to the schedule by making points regen again.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    Options
    OK, something similar has been proposed already earlier in the thread. And I'm sure in other threads before... 

    For now, we have starting clears and end clears and both are tied to a schedule by choosing a slice.

    I'd like for players to have more freedom when they can do both, without penalties. 

    So, for the first (let's say) 16 hours of the 24 hours sub, timer wouldn't start even when you do first 4 clears of a node. If you did clear it 4 times (or just twice for a wave node), then at 8 hours left in the sub, timer starts and points regenerate so each node would get back to full just as the sub ends (at 3x the rate they do now in this case). This let's you take your time on starting clears. 

    Now, for the end clears, once you've cleared a node enough so it's eligible for starting a timer, it becomes locked until the final window of time (8 hours in this example). But, if a player wishes, he can start the countdown for sub end earlier - as soon as one node is cleared enough. At that point all the nodes have their timers enabled and points start regenerating where nodes are cleared enough already, and all nodes are unlocked again. The sub ends 8 hours from that point for that player. 

    Extra tweaking could be so that once the sub end "personal" countdown ticks to 0, just the points for the nodes drop to 0, but the nodes themselves are still playable for any rewards left uncollected.

    For players that only care about reaching progression, this would allow them to clear as much as they want all at once, even as soon as the sub opens if they so choose. And not have to wait for the last 8 hours (or 6 or 4, if it were set differently). But also not be locked out of the game mode for better part of the day in such a case.

    This would require that all nodes stay at 0 points once cleared 7 times (add one more for 48 hour subs). Also, since the starting clears can all be done at leisure, the separation in scores would come from end clears, which are fewer currently. Still, I believe it would be enough. Especially if the final window is shorter. Personally, I'd prefer the split be 20 to 4 hours. But if necessary, it can be further tweaked - number of starting/ending clears, how high is the scaling on last couple of clears...

    Anyway, this is pretty much still the same system as it is currently - all the placements are still decided through speed. Just the players can choose themselves at what time of the day to do their "sprint" at the end. :)

  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Hadronic said:
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
    But that doesn’t fix the problem of playing pve on schedule  when playing competitively (the title of the thread).
    It wasn't meant to address the issue of playing on a schedule. It addresses the issue of bracket dilution which would happen if we add more time slices. Adding more time slices, kinda addresses the issue in a stupid sideways kind of way. Still on a schedule, but now a better chance one of those schedules actually works for you.

    Removing the schedule is super easy, just remove point regeneration. done

    This leads to other issues of course, like Ties, we tried this and everyone complained. Instead of solving the issue of too many ties, they decided to go back to the schedule by making points regen again.
    Why do you make the better chance of a working schedule, sound like a bad thing?

    With the risk of you calling something else stupid, but you wanna remove point regeneration and solve ties? You trying to solve by creating an infinite ammount?
  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    Smart80 said:
    Hadronic said:
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
    But that doesn’t fix the problem of playing pve on schedule  when playing competitively (the title of the thread).
    It wasn't meant to address the issue of playing on a schedule. It addresses the issue of bracket dilution which would happen if we add more time slices. Adding more time slices, kinda addresses the issue in a stupid sideways kind of way. Still on a schedule, but now a better chance one of those schedules actually works for you.

    Removing the schedule is super easy, just remove point regeneration. done

    This leads to other issues of course, like Ties, we tried this and everyone complained. Instead of solving the issue of too many ties, they decided to go back to the schedule by making points regen again.
    Why do you make the better chance of a working schedule, sound like a bad thing?

    With the risk of you calling something else stupid, but you wanna remove point regeneration and solve ties? You trying to solve by creating an infinite ammount?
    I dint try to make it sound bad. Its a stupid way of addressing the schedule issue. More time slices doesn't solve the schedule problem of PvP, just makes it easier for people to deal with it. That's fine, its a band aid at best.

    More slices splits the player base and one way to deal with that is removing brackets within slices which was the idea I proposed.

    Why does the schedule exist? Its because the points regenerate. This leads to an optimal way of maximizing point regeneration, and the method is our optimal schedule.

    Easiest way to remove the schedule is remove point regeneration, which they already tried. Guess what it worked. Everyone could play that event on their own time and get max points.

    But it lead to stupid amounts of ties. Im aware of the issue.

    Instead of trying to figure out an alternative scoring method, to break the ties, the devs back peddled and made points regenerate again.

    Any idea that has been suggested in this thread that has regenerating points will also be on a schedule, its just the nature of the beast.

    How do you remove schedule from PvP? get rid of regenerating points, that part is easy.

    How do you fix all the ties? Build a new scoring system underneath it all that takes other things into account. Fight the dream has some good ideas on ways to do this.
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    How do you fix all the ties? Build a new scoring system underneath it all that takes other things into account.
    Hence my idea with the timers for placement and points for progression. I think people got upset with ties last time because there was no clear rules about it ever explicitly mentioned in the game and the flaw was the fact we only needed to be first on the last day to win the event. If the timer was implemented from the first day, then it was clear from the start how to separate the ties.

    If they kept point values the same and don’t decay, I think it might increase the number of people who get full progression without having to fight the toughest nodes (they could just clear the easier nodes 7 times for more points than clearing the hardest node 5 times). I don’t think they want that.
    EoTS finite clears test was a 7 day event and people figured out scoring and placement within the time between the announcement and the actual event. It was posted here and on Line. If you didn't know how it was going to end and complained after the fact, it was on you. Because the information was available all over the community for the entire week. And you could see the system in action each day as the placement overall changed to whoever cleared fastest that sub.
    I wonder if people in other games go to their forums and complain after the fact that they didn't know about how something works when it's available right there where they are posting their complaints.

    (Not saying that test was good, since it invalidated the entire event up until the last sub besides sub rewards)
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Daiches said:
    EoTS finite clears test was a 7 day event and people figured out scoring and placement within the time between the announcement and the actual event. It was posted here and on Line. If you didn't know how it was going to end and complained after the fact, it was on you. Because the information was available all over the community for the entire week. And you could see the system in action each day as the placement overall changed to whoever cleared fastest that sub.
    I wonder if people in other games go to their forums and complain after the fact that they didn't know about how something works when it's available right there where they are posting their complaints.

    (Not saying that test was good, since it invalidated the entire event up until the last sub besides sub rewards)
    Could you change your post so it doesn’t seem like you were talking to me personally? I had no problem with that event. I got t10 I think. You might be even in my bracket.. (Add: found my feedback : I finished 6th https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/531813/#Comment_531813 )
    I was talking generally. You is used in the general sense. Which should be clear from the post. Apologies if misunderstood.
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Hadronic said:
    Smart80 said:
    Hadronic said:
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
    But that doesn’t fix the problem of playing pve on schedule  when playing competitively (the title of the thread).
    It wasn't meant to address the issue of playing on a schedule. It addresses the issue of bracket dilution which would happen if we add more time slices. Adding more time slices, kinda addresses the issue in a stupid sideways kind of way. Still on a schedule, but now a better chance one of those schedules actually works for you.

    Removing the schedule is super easy, just remove point regeneration. done

    This leads to other issues of course, like Ties, we tried this and everyone complained. Instead of solving the issue of too many ties, they decided to go back to the schedule by making points regen again.
    Why do you make the better chance of a working schedule, sound like a bad thing?

    With the risk of you calling something else stupid, but you wanna remove point regeneration and solve ties? You trying to solve by creating an infinite ammount?
    I dint try to make it sound bad. Its a stupid way of addressing the schedule issue. More time slices doesn't solve the schedule problem of PvP, just makes it easier for people to deal with it. That's fine, its a band aid at best.

    More slices splits the player base and one way to deal with that is removing brackets within slices which was the idea I proposed.

    Why does the schedule exist? Its because the points regenerate. This leads to an optimal way of maximizing point regeneration, and the method is our optimal schedule.

    Easiest way to remove the schedule is remove point regeneration, which they already tried. Guess what it worked. Everyone could play that event on their own time and get max points.

    But it lead to stupid amounts of ties. Im aware of the issue.

    Instead of trying to figure out an alternative scoring method, to break the ties, the devs back peddled and made points regenerate again.

    Any idea that has been suggested in this thread that has regenerating points will also be on a schedule, its just the nature of the beast.

    How do you remove schedule from PvP? get rid of regenerating points, that part is easy.

    How do you fix all the ties? Build a new scoring system underneath it all that takes other things into account. Fight the dream has some good ideas on ways to do this.
    You dont try to make it sound bad, but rightaway call it stupid again. Maybe you need to make up your mind?

    same with your logic to suggest a solution that you know creates a problem, which you’d have to solve with removing said solution..

    btw, we are talking pve, not pvp, please call it that as well.

    Anyway, if fixing a schedule and making it easier for people to deal with timing, isnt the same thing, I’d say there is little to discuss..
  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2018
    Options
    Smart80 said:
    Hadronic said:
    Smart80 said:
    Hadronic said:
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    I don't see this as a problem necessarily, playing the entire event should give you an edge, no matter what the scoring system is underneath.
    But that doesn’t fix the problem of playing pve on schedule  when playing competitively (the title of the thread).
    It wasn't meant to address the issue of playing on a schedule. It addresses the issue of bracket dilution which would happen if we add more time slices. Adding more time slices, kinda addresses the issue in a stupid sideways kind of way. Still on a schedule, but now a better chance one of those schedules actually works for you.

    Removing the schedule is super easy, just remove point regeneration. done

    This leads to other issues of course, like Ties, we tried this and everyone complained. Instead of solving the issue of too many ties, they decided to go back to the schedule by making points regen again.
    Why do you make the better chance of a working schedule, sound like a bad thing?

    With the risk of you calling something else stupid, but you wanna remove point regeneration and solve ties? You trying to solve by creating an infinite ammount?
    I dint try to make it sound bad. Its a stupid way of addressing the schedule issue. More time slices doesn't solve the schedule problem of PvP, just makes it easier for people to deal with it. That's fine, its a band aid at best.

    More slices splits the player base and one way to deal with that is removing brackets within slices which was the idea I proposed.

    Why does the schedule exist? Its because the points regenerate. This leads to an optimal way of maximizing point regeneration, and the method is our optimal schedule.

    Easiest way to remove the schedule is remove point regeneration, which they already tried. Guess what it worked. Everyone could play that event on their own time and get max points.

    But it lead to stupid amounts of ties. Im aware of the issue.

    Instead of trying to figure out an alternative scoring method, to break the ties, the devs back peddled and made points regenerate again.

    Any idea that has been suggested in this thread that has regenerating points will also be on a schedule, its just the nature of the beast.

    How do you remove schedule from PvP? get rid of regenerating points, that part is easy.

    How do you fix all the ties? Build a new scoring system underneath it all that takes other things into account. Fight the dream has some good ideas on ways to do this.
    You dont try to make it sound bad, but rightaway call it stupid again. Maybe you need to make up your mind?

    same with your logic to suggest a solution that you know creates a problem, which you’d have to solve with removing said solution..

    btw, we are talking pve, not pvp, please call it that as well.

    Anyway, if fixing a schedule and making it easier for people to deal with timing, isnt the same thing, I’d say there is little to discuss..
    Adding more time slices

    It's a stupid way to solve the schedule problem, cause it doesnt solve the schedule problem.
    It's a great band aid at letting people deal with playing on a schedule.
    I will continue to refer to it as a stupid fix for playing on a schedule, cause it doesn't remove the schedule.

    sorry for the PvP typo, good grief man. (reverting to grammar corrections, your arguments are getting weak)

    And yes, I suggest removing point regen even though i know it has problems. Outline a scoring method for me that has regenerating points on nodes that is not on a schedule. I can wait.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    OJSP said:
    The rockett said:
    They had no slices before.  Just ask @Bowgentle for a history lesson. Lol. I think he is a day 1 player.  Very few left. 
    He’s old, but he’s not that old. There are surprisingly a few people who have been playing longer than him who posted in the forum occasionally. He’s just one of the most vocal.
    It's hard to check with the new forum. I can't find the userlist any more
  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Options
    Schedule problem = people cant always play at set times
    more slices = more optional times to play

    Keep calling it stupid and band aid fixes, but like it or not, it fixes the problem...

    Lmao, you actually crying over me correcting you from pvp instead of pve as grammar correction and now my argument are getting weak? Haha, first of all, that was just a side node. And two, its little more than grammar error. Some might call it stupid mistake...

    But now the most funny part of your post. You complain about band aid fixes, but the best you come up with has its own problems already... 
    i have no problem with regen or schedules, but let me come up with something for you. Please wait in silence............
  • Hadronic
    Hadronic Posts: 338 Mover and Shaker
    Options
    we define the schedule problem differently. For me the problem is the schedule exists at all.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,930 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Options
    ***Mod Mode: ON***

    Woah, getting a little heated in here. Please keep the discussion on topic and keep comments constructive. If you don't like an idea or don't think one is particularly good, either explain why respectfully or ignore it. Any further use of the word "stupid" will result in the removal of the post and a warning. It serves no constructive purpose and impedes good discussion. Obviously, there is no perfect solution to the issue of PvE and people are going to disagree but there's no need to take it personally.

    Thank you.

    ***Mod Mode: OFF***
  • ZeroKarma
    ZeroKarma Posts: 513 Critical Contributor
    Options
    OJSP said:
    Hadronic said:
    How do you fix all the ties? Build a new scoring system underneath it all that takes other things into account.
    Hence my idea with the timers for placement and points for progression. I think people got upset with ties last time because there was no clear rules about it ever explicitly mentioned in the game and the flaw was the fact we only needed to be first on the last day to win the event. If the timer was implemented from the first day, then it was clear from the start how to separate the ties.

    If they kept point values the same and don’t decay, I think it might increase the number of people who get full progression without having to fight the toughest nodes (they could just clear the easier nodes 7 times for more points than clearing the hardest node 5 times). I don’t think they want that.
    Couldn’t we:

    - create a floating start time where x number of clears (let’s say seven) has to be completed within a 24 hour period

    - the points never regen

    - the aggregate time is the leaderboard so there will be no chance of ties

    If you really want to push it then you open every sub together and there is a single monster leaderboard and placement is given to the top x % for highest rewards and then on down. 

    Put the progression rewards in the nodes, and nodes unlock as you progress so you can’t skip to those rewards.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2018
    Options
    As requested. Webbed Wonder Bracket info:
    All SL9
    Slice 1: 4 brackets 
    Slice 2:  3 brackets 
    Slcie 3:  3 brackets 
    Slice 4:  3 brackets 
    Slice 5: 4 maybe 5 brackets 

    This is less SL9 brackets, by 1 bracket, from the anti tapping test event. 


  • Smart80
    Smart80 Posts: 748 Critical Contributor
    Options
    The rockett said:
    As requested. Webbed Wonder Bracket info:
    All SL9
    Slice 1: 4 brackets 
    Slice 2:  3 brackets 
    Slcie 3:  3 brackets 
    Slice 4:  3 brackets 
    Slice 5: 4 maybe 5 brackets 

    This is less SL9 brackets, by 1 bracket, from the anti tapping test event. 


    Thanks.
    1 more or less doesnt mean too much, especially as we dont know anything about how full the unflipped brackets have been

    what does pop out to me, is that this looks more evenly distributed.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    Options
    Smart80 said:
    The rockett said:
    As requested. Webbed Wonder Bracket info:
    All SL9
    Slice 1: 4 brackets 
    Slice 2:  3 brackets 
    Slcie 3:  3 brackets 
    Slice 4:  3 brackets 
    Slice 5: 4 maybe 5 brackets 

    This is less SL9 brackets, by 1 bracket, from the anti tapping test event. 


    Thanks.
    1 more or less doesnt mean too much, especially as we dont know anything about how full the unflipped brackets have been

    what does pop out to me, is that this looks more evenly distributed.
    I was in the last 2,9 bracket and it was almost full when the event ended - I think the last time I checked it had passed 980 players. I don't know how full the last brackets of SCLs 1 and 5 were though.

Categories