5* Land: Problems & Solutions

D4Ni13 · October 2017

Since the PvP win-based news and the loss of CP from the 1200 points, there where a lot of negative opinions in the thread & complains, the discussion started to be very tense and people hitting back at each other. I also took part in this, and I must admit that it wasn't a good idea (and I'm sorry for it), and I think that conversation will not go anywhere right because of that.

But I do want to help the 5* Land, and even though I'm just a 4* player, I want to offer you the alternative: a civilized thread, in which we can gather data, find out the real problems of 5* world, and come up with solutions for them.

So how whould this be different than the other threads we already have ? Well, I want to leave complains & negativity out of it, because I feel that those do not bring anything useful on the table. What I mean by complain or negativity ? Comments like "D3 doesn't care about us, and they want only money". I'm not here to debate if this kind of comments are true or not, but I just think that they add no value to the point, which is to find the real problems in 5* land and solve them.

I will try to centralize what we come up with here, somehow (I don't know exactly how yet, but I will think of something).

So the main points of discussion:

What is wrong with the 5* Land (precise data, examples, use cases)
Why do you think this happened (content or objective reason)
What do you think can be done to solve the problem (or part of the problem)

D4Ni13 · October 2017

Let me add the perspective of a 4* player, so we can make a comparison if needed. A lot of players at 4* or below don't understand your problems because for them everything seems ok.

As a 4* player I can see a big variety in teams in PvP, depending on what rank I'm in the bracket and how easy or hard the bracket is (*)

If I am outside of top 50 I can see underleveled 3* teams, champed 3* teams, combination of 3* and 4* teams. If I enter top 50 I start to see 4* teams and as I climb higher in rank I start to get champed 4* teams. (**)

(*) As a side note, I never used third party apps and do not know how to enter a certain bracket. I am in a casual alliance, I enter events as I want & feel, and battle my way to the objective I have. I'm aware of the fact that in certain events I won't take all the rewards and I accepted that. I'm enjoying myself in MPQ, and do not want to be more competitive than I have to.

(**) I have 20+ champ 4*, and almost all the 5* soft-capped at level 300. I can essencially level my 5* up until 350-380 or so, because my top 4* when they are boosted can reach level 388 or so, without feeling any difference in teams I see (at least in theory). Haven't done it because I have no ISO for this, and I want to cover more 4* right now.

So a couple of honest questions, for a starting point:

what is your current level & what teams do you see in PvP right now ? (does it change if you are lower or higher, or is it the same no matter what ?)
are those 15 CP (1200 points) so important for your progression ?

I'm asking about CP because there are multiple sources of CP in game, and as a 4* player, I never battled for that reward (stopped at 900 points), and despite this I manage to have a pretty good income of CP without buying my way there. So is this really a necessity for your progression, or it's just something you're used to and now you don't have it anymore & feel robbed ? (honest question).

ValekBoss · October 2017

Just a short anwser to start the discussion.

what is your current level & what teams do you see in PvP right now ? LVL119, only teams i see in pvp are dual champend 5* teams, does not matter what slice or what time i join.
are those 15 CP (1200 points) so important for your progression ? important? No but very usefull and the only reason i have to get to 1200+ in PVP.The 15 cp + the 10cp form the 575 score gets you another pull form Latest Tokens, the only way to improve the 5* i have.

Normally i would get to 1200+ within 1 hour / 1,5 hour play and just shield out. Now it is40 matches just for a 4* cover.....:S

sinnerjfl · October 2017

Look, here's the only thing that really matters regarding the move to 5* land.

You need a lot of CP to get any progress whatsoever because its 100% gated by RNG. Not only that, covering 5*'s that are in the classic packs is even more difficult because there's like 17 of them atm so who knows what youre gonna pull. You're better off sticking to Latests because there's 3 of them but the problem is there not staying there all that long.

At 15% chance of getting a 5*, you need 100 of pulls before even thinking of covering one. We're talking thousands of CP, yeah, it takes forever to get what's needed.

Removing 45 CP a week from PVP is a big deal and slowing down a lot of people's progress which is already pretty slow in the first place.

D4Ni13 · October 2017

ValekBoss said:

Just a short anwser to start the discussion.

what is your current level & what teams do you see in PvP right now ? LVL119, only teams i see in pvp are dual champend 5* teams, does not matter what slice or what time i join.
are those 15 CP (1200 points) so important for your progression ? important? No but very usefull and the only reason i have to get to 1200+ in PVP.The 15 cp + the 10cp form the 575 score gets you another pull form Latest Tokens, the only way to improve the 5* i have.
Normally i would get to 1200+ within 1 hour / 1,5 hour play and just shield out. Now it is40 matches just for a 4* cover.....:S

What is the level of your 5* compared to the other 4* ? I'm trying to see the difference in level here, so I would understand why don't you see other teams. The dual 5* teams you see have a big 4* with them, or an underleveled 5* ?

Seeing other teams (like lets say 1 champed 5* and 2 underleveled 5* or 1 5* and 2 big 4* champs) would make a better experience overall in your climb ? Would that encourage you to play despite not getting the extra 15 CP ?
(just trying to undestrand where are the boundaries)

D4Ni13 · October 2017

Would introduction of CL9 solve some problems in PvP ? Meaning that CL9 could be 5* only, CL8 could be 4* and 5* only, and CL7 would be 4* only (& 3*) ?

Starfury · October 2017

D4Ni13 said:

ValekBoss said:

Just a short anwser to start the discussion.

what is your current level & what teams do you see in PvP right now ? LVL119, only teams i see in pvp are dual champend 5* teams, does not matter what slice or what time i join.
are those 15 CP (1200 points) so important for your progression ? important? No but very usefull and the only reason i have to get to 1200+ in PVP.The 15 cp + the 10cp form the 575 score gets you another pull form Latest Tokens, the only way to improve the 5* i have.
Normally i would get to 1200+ within 1 hour / 1,5 hour play and just shield out. Now it is40 matches just for a 4* cover.....:S

What is the level of your 5* compared to the other 4* ? I'm trying to see the difference in level here, so I would understand why don't you see other teams. The dual 5* teams you see have a big 4* with them, or an underleveled 5* ?

The dual 5* teams you see have the required character with them. Otherwise you'd see triple 5*.

BlackBoltRocks · October 2017

@sinnerjfl pretty much covered it. In terms of the opponents you face, there aren't really too many problems per se. PvE gets easier the more 5* champs you get, and in PvP you get matched up against players who have similar rosters to yours, which is what you'd expect anyway. In terms of PvP moving to wins-based progression, I'll reserve my opinion until I've played in a few events. Personally for me though, I prefer the flexiblity, as opposed to entering a bracket with an hour to go. Wins-based progression means I have an entire 60 hours to get the 10CP (which is my main aim anyway) and can spread out my healthpack usage, instead of worrying about running out of all 10 healthpacks in an hour. But I think I'm digressing.

The main problem, again as sinnerjfl said, is the accumulation of 5*. When Doctopus joins Classics next week, there will be a 15% chance to get 16 5*. That means a measly 0.3125% chance to get a particular cover of a particular 5* (0.9375% to get a particular character). Assuming you don't have any covers of a Classic 5*, you'd need, on average, 27733CP to get 13 covers of a Classic 5*. As always, this assumes no dupes and no BH. My current CP rate is about 30 a day; I would need about 925 days to hit that. Two and a half years? No thanks.

Latest LTs or those special stores that we've seen lately are much better options, but they still require an average of 6500CP / 260 LTs or their equivalent to get a character from 0 to 13 covers.

So to answer your questions @D4Ni13:

What is wrong with the 5* Land (precise data, examples, use cases) I've stated above.
Why do you think this happened (content or objective reason) Ask the devs.
What do you think can be done to solve the problem (or part of the problem) There are many options. Make a 5* cover a progression prize in PvE, in the higher SCLs. Perhaps in PvP as well, whether progression or placement; break up Classic LTs into smaller stores that contain no more than three 5% each; have more of the special 5* stores on a regular basis; increase the 5% rate from 15% to 25%.

Infrared · October 2017

I'm a recent arrival to 5* land, and my play style is probably not too common here. I don't really care as much about roster progress anymore, but I like being able to have fun with the roster I already have. I welcome more chances to get additional 5* covers, but do not feel the need to reach 1200 in PvP. Removing the 15CP from progression doesn't affect me personally, but I still feel it is a **** thing to do to the longtime PvP vets who have built a mini society around reaching high scores.

What *is* a problem for me is that 5* MMR has made PvP less fun than when I was in 4* land. There is less variety in teams I can use, and in teams that I fight against. Nearly all the opponents I see are 5* champs, right from the beginning of the event. Unlike in PvE, I don't have the option to drop to a lower level to just relax and have some fun casually with my lower tier characters.

Opening up the PvP MMR would be great for me. I realize that lower level rosters may get hit a lot as a result. But in a win based progression system, it's not that big a deal anymore. Instead of looking at retal nodes and thinking "grrr, those bullies are preventing me from getting my rewards!", new players might instead say "wow, if I play long enough I can get teams like that myself".

dr tinykittylove · October 2017

I have a very simple question. What is this mystical 5* land of which you speak that is totally different from every other land?

Do 4* players not need cp to progress? Does my 3* roster alt think cp is a waste of time? Do new players working to finish their 3*s and roster their first 4*s not want cp?

How would all these players respond, do you think, if tomorrow Brigby announces a new PVE test - you need 6 clears to reach max progression, which will be a 4* cover. The cp that used to be in final progression will be moved to top 20 placement.

D4Ni13 · October 2017

dr tinykittylove said:

I have a very simple question. What is this mystical 5* land of which you speak that is totally different from every other land?

Do 4* players not need cp to progress? Does my 3* roster alt think cp is a waste of time? Do new players working to finish their 3*s and roster their first 4*s not want cp?

How would all these players respond, do you think, if tomorrow Brigby announces a new PVE test - you need 6 clears to reach max progression, which will be a 4* cover. The cp that used to be in final progression will be moved to top 20 placement.

Who are you asking the question ? As a 4* player I agree with your point, but recent news showed that a lot of 5* players disagree. So I'm trying to understand why, and if there is something to do towards better overall experience.

So far it seems that it is a big difference in what people see in PvP. While a 4* player sees a big variety of teams (including 3* & underleveled 5*), a 5* players sees only 5* champs. This certainly isn't the same thing. So having to play 40 games against 5* champs is like we have to play 40 games against the hardest teams we can encounter at our level. Not very motivating...

dr tinykittylove · October 2017

D4Ni13 said:

dr tinykittylove said:

I have a very simple question. What is this mystical 5* land of which you speak that is totally different from every other land?

Do 4* players not need cp to progress? Does my 3* roster alt think cp is a waste of time? Do new players working to finish their 3*s and roster their first 4*s not want cp?

How would all these players respond, do you think, if tomorrow Brigby announces a new PVE test - you need 6 clears to reach max progression, which will be a 4* cover. The cp that used to be in final progression will be moved to top 20 placement.

Who are you asking the question ? As a 4* player I agree with your point, but recent news showed that a lot of 5* players disagree. So I'm trying to understand why, and if there is something to do towards better overall experience.

So far it seems that it is a big difference in what people see in PvP. While a 4* player sees a big variety of teams (including 3* & underleveled 5*), a 5* players sees only 5* champs. This certainly isn't the same thing. So having to play 40 games against 5* champs is like we have to play 40 games against the hardest teams we can encounter at our level. Not very motivating...

All this debate about mmr and what 5* players experience is a distraction from the real issue, which is simply that the upcoming change is negative for anyone who can reach 1200 in pvp.

Just tell me, would you be happy if the pve change as I suggested above is implemented? 6 clears for a 4*, t20 placement for cp? Why would a pvp player be happy with the equivalent happening in pvp?

The rockett · October 2017

This is the point you are missing. This change will not hurt me at all, but I run an alliance of 40+ people. THAT'S the point that you are missing. This is not about me or my play style, it is about my ally mates, the people I work with on LINE and people that just don't have the time to fight for a top 10 spot to recover the missing 15 CPs. 1200 is a walk in the park in slice 1/3/4 for PVP. Any 4 * player, heck I have seen 3 * players get 1200, that is in those slices can make that happen. Yes LINE is very useful for this, but can be done without it to. I have seen in the past you have said "I don't want to use a 3rd party application" but I can tell you about 60% of the people I talk to or work with do not come to the forums any more since it is not useful and to be honest, the people that post the most are not even close to the same level as they are. LINE or Discord is so much better for the social aspect, helping rosters progress, learning the game in a different manner then what you can learn from here. Also, the 5* players have been 3* or 4* players as well. I remember taking down 4* HB at 270, yes before champing, with a 3* cyc when he was boosted. Man he was killer. This was before 5* were in the game so yes, a lot of us have been around a long time and have seen many changes. They removed the 25CPs from the 1300 then 1200 mark and spilt it to 575 and 1200 to make it easier for people to get. Now they are removing the 15 CP to progression. This is a huge blow that if you don't play PVP in a competitive level, then you just don't understand.

DyingLegend · October 2017

Have they announced the exact breakdown of the rewards yet for the new season?

The rockett · October 2017

Not yet even thought it was promised

firethorne · October 2017

D4Ni13 said:

What is wrong with the 5* Land (precise data, examples, use cases)
Why do you think this happened (content or objective reason)
What do you think can be done to solve the problem (or part of the problem)

What's wrong?  A lot.  The issue I have the most is the starting point itself. The transition into 5* land is very broken. RNG is a killer for all but the whales and the people who save up massive hordes to make a direct attempt at a specific set of 3. If you just play the game somewhat normally (opening rewards when you have the ability to open rewards) you'll never actually get into 5* land. Playing this way, 5* characters will roll into classics long before you actually finish them. And classics is dilution hell where your chances of finishing anybody is nearing hopeless. I said nearly a year ago that my roster keeps getting bigger, but it long ago has stopped getting any better. And, to this day, I still feel that is true.

And, even if you do manage to finish something by the classic route, there's still the question of how relevant those characters will be when you get there. Power creep is real, and some old characters don't do as well in the current meta. Exacerbating this is instances like Old Man Logan, where something a lot of people were actually working towards him and then he was deliberately cut down by the devs. Having long term goals is pointless if there's no guarantee the reward won't be removed from the finish line just as you get there. That's why the OML nerf was such a crapstorm, and I don't really think the devs fully understood the permanent damage they were doing by sending the message long term goals could be thrown into the trash bin at a whim. To pull the rug out from people who had been working on a character for literally a year, and were still not finished, made a lot of people I know just loose interest entirely

What can be done about that issue specifically? I don't think anything. I think opening the 5* nerf gate was a move that has irreversible effects on player outlooks that linger to this day. I get the sense that there's a bit more of an adversarial relationship between players and devs here than in almost any other game I've ever played. While nerfs aren't the only reason, it wasn't a step in the right direction.

The 1200 PvP changes on the horizon further cuts down a source of CP for a lot of players. In the end, it makes it more difficult to get 5* characters, regardless of if you go classics or latest. This also plays into the adversarial relationship feeling. Making progression more difficult in any way as a game matures just feels so out of place. Reaching goals in other games gets easier as time goes by. With dilution and now with CP removal, MPQ gets more tedious.

What can be done to make anything any better? A guaranteed way of acquiring a specific 5* via progression for the highest CL, both on PvP and PvE. If you can have a required 5* node, that 5* needs to be part of progression. Break up classics into packs of 3, and raise the 15% draw rate for 5*'s.

Calnexin · October 2017

D4Ni13 said:

So a couple of honest questions, for a starting point:

what is your current level & what teams do you see in PvP right now ? (does it change if you are lower or higher, or is it the same no matter what ?)
are those 15 CP (1200 points) so important for your progression ?

I'm asking about CP because there are multiple sources of CP in game, and as a 4* player, I never battled for that reward (stopped at 900 points), and despite this I manage to have a pretty good income of CP without buying my way there. So is this really a necessity for your progression, or it's just something you're used to and now you don't have it anymore & feel robbed ? (honest question).

Shield rank 111. I consider myself a 4* player. I recently champed my first 5*, who is at 451. All my other 5* are at 270 or lower. I currently have 42 4* champed, highest level 306, lowest 271.

I rarely see 3*. If it is, it's usually IM40. I generally start seeing champed 4* immediately. Occasionally there will be a non-champ 4 or an underleveled 5*. Once I climb past ~ 100 pts I see single-champ 5*s/boosted 4* or double-boosted 4*.

Until very recently I haven't been able to climb high enough to get the 1200 reliably - every once in awhile with a fast climb team. In the 2 weeks since I champed my 5* I was getting hit less on hops and got there twice. That could have been an artifact of the off-season, though. I think it would have been something I would have started to gain regularly, and now I am unlikely to ever earn it in placement. So, nothing lost except potential gain, but that potential gain would have made a significant difference- on average about three extra LT's/month.

I'm not close to being a truly 5* player, but I know those pulls would help because there's a really big difference between a champ and a max-champ. The max-champ 4*s are tougher to take down and do more damage than a low-champ 5* does. I wiped on them twice last night getting greedy in Vortex.

Pants1000 · October 2017

On the original subject, I'll share my experience, although I know it's different from more advanced rosters.

I have a champed Surfer, a 435 OML, and 10 level 300+ 4's. I do not see constant Panther/Thanos teams like some people report. I see a mix of champed 5's, near-champed 5's, max-champed/boosted 4's, lower champed/boosted 4's, and rarely unboosted 4's (like Carol/Medusa/Vulture). The 5's I see are varied. Lots of OML, Phoenix, Thanos, Panther, Surfer, and Hawkeye. The other 5's are less common.

The easiest teams I see during my climb in Black Vortex are teams like 420 OML, 380 Jean, 380 Gamora. The hardest I see are 479 Rocket, 479 Gamora, 479 Carol.

If I push hard early I stop seeing the easier opponents and see mostly 479 4's and champed 5's.

About halfway through the event, if I push over 800 I "break MMR" and see easier teams. Some easier 4* teams usually worth 10-20 points, and even some 3* teams (seals) worth around 5 points.

If I go for 40 wins, I think the best strategy for me will be to get to 800 with 15-20 wins, then rack up a bunch of wins on easy teams after breaking MMR.

Daredevil217 · October 2017

D4Ni13 said:

dr tinykittylove said:

I have a very simple question. What is this mystical 5* land of which you speak that is totally different from every other land?

Do 4* players not need cp to progress? Does my 3* roster alt think cp is a waste of time? Do new players working to finish their 3*s and roster their first 4*s not want cp?

How would all these players respond, do you think, if tomorrow Brigby announces a new PVE test - you need 6 clears to reach max progression, which will be a 4* cover. The cp that used to be in final progression will be moved to top 20 placement.

Who are you asking the question ? As a 4* player I agree with your point, but recent news showed that a lot of 5* players disagree. So I'm trying to understand why, and if there is something to do towards better overall experience.

So far it seems that it is a big difference in what people see in PvP. While a 4* player sees a big variety of teams (including 3* & underleveled 5*), a 5* players sees only 5* champs. This certainly isn't the same thing. So having to play 40 games against 5* champs is like we have to play 40 games against the hardest teams we can encounter at our level. Not very motivating...

Just wanted to say as a low level 4* player (34 champs but only one in the 290s, the rest are lower) what I see is not tied to my ranking but how many points I’ve amassed. When I start (0 points) I can see boosted 3* teams sometimes with a loaner. As I climb to maybe 300, I start to see unboosted 4s. There’s also the occasional undercovered 5* (my favorite) paired with any number of characters. The dual Champed boosted 4s come as I win more and more matches. Regardless of my rank, once I hit a certain pint threshold (maybe around the 575 mark?) that’s mostly what I see, and the final climb to 900 (where I stop) is against boosted 4s. The final 800-900 push is usually against the elite boosted (Grocket/Gamora last PVE) over and over unless you get some other combo but they are usually worth half the points.

By the way, I loved Gambit’s event. Not having Gamora I had to come up with something different to reach 900. I actually used unboosted X-23 to tank for Gambit and absorb Grocket strike damage, Purple boosts to get Gambit going faster (to remove strikes) and had Coulson as my third so I could spam gambit Red and make Coulson Countdowns and Coulson could collect AP off the board being flooded with his and Gambits Countdowns. Honestly a perfect pairing.

Beer40 · October 2017

It doesn't matter what your shield rank, your roster, whatever metric you want to use. The only thing that matters is that CP were removed from progression.

They can come for your characters, your rewards, your enjoyment of the game...at any time. Just because it doesn't affect you currently, does not mean it will always be that way.

Your time as a player is coming, if it hasn't already. The longer you stay in this game, the likely more times its already came.

What can be done? The only thing is unity. Everyone taking a stand together and saying, "This isn't OK".

And in a game where a large portion of people (read Forum posts if you need examples) are only looking out for their own self interests that isn't going to happen.

Every change I've seen has been designed to pit one faction of players against another. That is intentional, I believe, to maintain control over the situation. Possible unpopular opinion alert here: And also drive sales. I think there are 3 types of spenders in the game:
1) Whales, always going to spend lots.
2) Consistent spenders, regardless of changes.
And the target group:
3) People that spend when things are going their way.

Ultimately, in most cases, group 3 can be split into two subgroups that members can switch from at will:
1) This change works for me, I'm spending.
2) This change doesn't work for me, I'm not spending.

Metrics show when changes need to be made to increase sales. 1 and 2 are there. Each change is designed to grab more of group 3. Need an example in this hypothetical? Vaulting was implemented to increase sales to level up the most recent characters. A portion of group 3 started spending money to do this. This pattern went on for months and either steadily declined, or sharply declined. Either way, someone said, "Sales are dropping. Lets throw a bone to those non-Vaulting people that are in group 3". And now they're getting that money. Doesn't matter if they make the Vaulting people mad from group 3 because that money was drying up anyway. And changes are linked in a way a person outside that business unit simply can't comprehend, because they're trying to gain as many of group 3 as possible at any given time. (LIke I said, only my opinion)

Ultimately the answer to the OP questions are, "Doesn't matter the issues. Adapt or move on".

/harsh reality

Pants1000 · October 2017

OJSP said:

Pants1000 said:

On the original subject, I'll share my experience, although I know it's different from more advanced rosters.

I have a champed Surfer, a 435 OML, and 10 level 300+ 4's. I do not see constant Panther/Thanos teams like some people report. I see a mix of champed 5's, near-champed 5's, max-champed/boosted 4's, lower champed/boosted 4's, and rarely unboosted 4's (like Carol/Medusa/Vulture). The 5's I see are varied. Lots of OML, Phoenix, Thanos, Panther, Surfer, and Hawkeye. The other 5's are less common.

The easiest teams I see during my climb in Black Vortex are teams like 420 OML, 380 Jean, 380 Gamora. The hardest I see are 479 Rocket, 479 Gamora, 479 Carol.

If I push hard early I stop seeing the easier opponents and see mostly 479 4's and champed 5's.

About halfway through the event, if I push over 800 I "break MMR" and see easier teams. Some easier 4* teams usually worth 10-20 points, and even some 3* teams (seals) worth around 5 points.

If I go for 40 wins, I think the best strategy for me will be to get to 800 with 15-20 wins, then rack up a bunch of wins on easy teams after breaking MMR.

You are playing in slice 2, where the proportion of 5* players are relatively lower than other slices and also where some players prefer using their boosted 4*s than their 5*s.

I hop around between slices 2/4/5. I haven't noticed much difference in my matchmaking between them, although the top of the scoreboards are very different.

What are you saying would be different in other slices? You think I'd see more Thanos/Panther before breaking MMR? My experience may be different because I don't have multiple champed 5's, just close to it.

5* Land: Problems & Solutions

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