Marvel Puzzle Quest: Character Rebalances - Batch #1

@Ed_Dragonrider said:

@KGB said:

The problem is with 500 characters and only 6 colors on the board (ignoring TUs) and X number of unique powers (not sure what X is, but say 30-40 unique powers), eventually you'll run into a lot of duplicate abilities on same colors (eg Red - Trap tiles). Once that happens (and it only gets worse with each new release), the game is stagnant in that there is nothing to differentiate 2 characters beyond X damage for Y AP and making everyone exactly the same is boring for a different reason (ie why have 2 more or less exact same characters).

The other thing about the list of characters is that outside of a VERY few players (talking .0001%), most rosters are not equally balanced. So nerfing Shang whom someone has at 550 in order to make that list of characters more balanced doesn't help unless THEY ALSO have those same characters at 550. In other words if they have that list of characters in say the 480 range, they won't get played when that player has a 550 Shang even if he gets nerfed. That's because obviously a 550 > 480. So all that happens is you make a WHOLE lot of the player bases life worse (nerfing their 550) and those characters still never get used because of the unbalanced roster issue (which is why I expect Polaris to continue to see heavy use because so many will have 550d her or 370d her in 4 star land far ahead of any other 4).

Balancing shouldn't just be about character powers, but about the whole game. It's very easy to say don't rely on a handful of characters for any one reason, but with constant inflation rosters need more and more help to make that happen. The reason why so many are upset at even the thought of strong characters being nerfed is that that will prevent them from achieving the exact diversity the devs are trying to strong-arm them into.

To put it into my personal specifics: I have 33 champed 5s (all between 453-486 so it's not like I have the 3 best at 550 then nothing). I also have an other 30 5s with 13+ covers waiting for iso.
The devs want me to use more diverse teams and strategies? What a coincidence, so do I. But I can't!!
With the new SCL10, there are more rewards so, even though I need to work harder at it, I thought i will be able to get more of my guys off the bench... but no, because at the same time they intend to take away or reduce the very characters that can make that happen.
The 5* and challenge nodes scale so high that a sheer 3match damage can wipe my team, let alone a lucky cascade. And I have to drag my under-leveled weak 5*s into it, so I need 2 of my very very best just to compensate and get it done. I have reverted to using SC and MThor, more than before, but it's the only was I can win against 5times my own health pools.

In short, if the devs want more diversity then they need to fix the whole game economy. ISO-8 economy in my case (which has been acknowledged repeatedly, yet still not much has been done), but for others it might be other resources. The inflation is just far too high!

Thanks for the double ISO though, its been helping a lot. Can't we just make this permanent?
Even at current iso-earning lvls it would still take me years to get everyone to useful levels, but at least it would feel like progress.

If the new CL10 is too difficult for your roster, why not drop to a lower difficulty? CL10 is optional.

Your post is a perfect example of why fixing the overpowered guys will achieve more diversity. Currently you're in the hardest possible difficulty level, meant for endgame rosters, and the only way you can win is by using overpowered guys. If they fix those guys, you won't be able to win those fights at all, and you'll have to choose an appropriate difficulty level where you'll be able to use more characters.

@Grantosium said:
You can now win almost any match, including CL10 and only excepting a small handful of characters, with a level 1 Hawkeye and the right 3 supports: Lucky (min level 3), Quantum Realm, Low Level AI. I don't think it's going to be dramatically slower than Polaris teams even at Level 1. (I've been using my Hawkeye with boosted Spider-Girl and it's been quicker than Sam/Juggs on Fight for Wakanda.) If you don't have these three supports it's pretty unlikely you should be playing CL10 anyway.

I guess it's none of my business really, but I can't buy into the argument of "Polaris' nerf makes me unable to complete PvE" when it came with a buff to a 1 star character that makes PvE trivial.

It's really simple, and it's not any of these players' faults.

The devs accidentally made a 4* character that was so strong and so fast that she could trivially punch up by like 300 levels. Instead of fixing her, they just left her like that forever. So what were players supposed to do? Anybody with half a brain would look at all the other characters on their (low-level) roster, see they're a million times worse, and then use Polaris to do everything!

These folks have been punching up for YEARS with her at this point, with no issues.

So what do the devs do? They finally fix her at the same time they launch a new, more difficult level of PvE, that for some reason is STILL called "CL10," and default everybody into the "new" CL10. They post the explanation on the forum where nobody sees it.

The "old" CL10 was too hard for many of these folks if they didn't have Polaris, and after years of using her, they probably don't even know what any of the other guys do! Why on earth would you do these two things together? Why wouldn't you communicate that CL10 is now meant for the highest-level rosters? What about something saying "hey, sorry, but you weren't meant to be in the hardest difficulty before?"

@Grantosium said:
I get the frustration with "I've put resources into a character and they've nerfed that character", I just take issue with trying to back that up with "Now I can't clear PvE." I've half a mind to roster 3 1 stars and not put any levels on them and clear CL10 PvE like that. Maybe I will.

Where we do agree is that the communication is appalling. I've long had the idea that they should put badges on characters 1 month after each is launched saying how many months of guaranteed no rebalance there will be. Doesn't mean they will rebalance a character the day the guarantee runs out, or ever for that matter, but it sets an expectation. Zola could have a badge on him now, saying 18 month no rebalance guarantee. When the dev goal is that each new release should be in the top 10% of characters the revenue loss from old character sales should be minimal.

[edited to reverse the autocorrection of dev to devil ]

Most people wouldn’t care. They’d see it as a countdown to when the character would be nerfed (if the character were good) if they bothered searching out what the badge means to begin with.

And there will inevitably come a point where that self imposed time limit will need to be broken. For example: characters have been released that do something completely unintended. If that happens under your badge idea, they would need to choose whether to fix the character to the intended programming, or just let it remain broken for the set time. And people would get upset either way. Your suggestion would simply lead to issues that are completely unnecessary. It would be a lose/lose situation for them and, as such, there's no reason for them to ever implement it.

As for: "I've half a mind to roster 3 1 stars and not put any levels on them and clear CL10 PvE like that. Maybe I will." ...lol... Please do this and post videos of your results. Then post any notes you have explaining how you were wrong but needed to actually try it to understand just how wrong.

To be blunt: Clearing CL10 PVE with 1 star characters (with no levels) isn't possible and to suggest it is presents a level of disconnect from what those characters are capable of doing that is laughable.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I just don't think you thought these ideas through before you posted. Thinking each through to their logical outcomes renders both ideas irrational.

Feel free to prove me wrong though.

(Edit: I suppose you could try some shenanigans with improved HE and supports and hope you can keep purple going, but I doubt that works well either.)

@Blackstone said:

@Grantosium said:
That's why I suggested the badge only gets added after a month. Gives them a window to correct unintended errors.

I realised however that 1s can't equip supports so it won't be possible. I did a full clear of Webbed Wonder (day1) using a 330 Spider-Girl and a 350 Hawkeye today. Minimum is going to be a 166 Hawkeye and two level 40 3 stars, due to the supports being needed.

All other things aside...I never even thought about supports on 1*s so I didn't know you couldn't do it.

Learn something new everyday.

Only 3* and up can use supports

@entrailbucket said:

@Grantosium said:
I get the frustration with "I've put resources into a character and they've nerfed that character", I just take issue with trying to back that up with "Now I can't clear PvE." I've half a mind to roster 3 1 stars and not put any levels on them and clear CL10 PvE like that. Maybe I will.

Where we do agree is that the communication is appalling. I've long had the idea that they should put badges on characters 1 month after each is launched saying how many months of guaranteed no rebalance there will be. Doesn't mean they will rebalance a character the day the guarantee runs out, or ever for that matter, but it sets an expectation. Zola could have a badge on him now, saying 18 month no rebalance guarantee. When the dev goal is that each new release should be in the top 10% of characters the revenue loss from old character sales should be minimal.

[edited to reverse the autocorrection of dev to devil ]

I'm not opposed to a "no rebalances for X days" badge, but I think it presumes:

1. That they will nerf anyone ever. The last few years have had like 4 total (Chasm, Sidewinder, Nova, Polaris -- am I missing someone?). You don't really need a badge for that level of change.
2. That they have any idea what they're doing with power levels in general. Sidewinder was 100% an accident, Nova was an accident, and it sure sounds like Polaris was too. If you don't know how to design characters at the appropriate power level, you can't guarantee you won't have to change them.

Did Nova make it in game before her nerf or was she nerfed pre-release?

@Phumade said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Grantosium said:
I get the frustration with "I've put resources into a character and they've nerfed that character", I just take issue with trying to back that up with "Now I can't clear PvE." I've half a mind to roster 3 1 stars and not put any levels on them and clear CL10 PvE like that. Maybe I will.

Where we do agree is that the communication is appalling. I've long had the idea that they should put badges on characters 1 month after each is launched saying how many months of guaranteed no rebalance there will be. Doesn't mean they will rebalance a character the day the guarantee runs out, or ever for that matter, but it sets an expectation. Zola could have a badge on him now, saying 18 month no rebalance guarantee. When the dev goal is that each new release should be in the top 10% of characters the revenue loss from old character sales should be minimal.

[edited to reverse the autocorrection of dev to devil ]

I'm not opposed to a "no rebalances for X days" badge, but I think it presumes:

1. That they will nerf anyone ever. The last few years have had like 4 total (Chasm, Sidewinder, Nova, Polaris -- am I missing someone?). You don't really need a badge for that level of change.
2. That they have any idea what they're doing with power levels in general. Sidewinder was 100% an accident, Nova was an accident, and it sure sounds like Polaris was too. If you don't know how to design characters at the appropriate power level, you can't guarantee you won't have to change them.

Did Nova make it in game before her nerf or was she nerfed pre-release?

both. released as a mistake from her published text. then "nerfed" 2 days later to orginal text. or something along those lines

Right, the initial Nova had like 95% damage reduction and did 300k AoE for 6ap. They fixed her pretty quick -- I think someone just put in the wrong numbers when they copied her into the game.

Now imagine every new character comes with a "no nerfs for two years" guarantee. We're all exclusively playing Frankie Puzzle Quest for 2 whole years.

When are the rest of the nerfs coming?
Or was that story just a ruse to hide the witch hunt of my Queen Polaris getting bludgeoned into D-tier?

Yeah, Polaris didn't get nerfed to D-tier. Maybe B at the lowest. Or a low A. She's still quite good. Unless she was the only tool in the utility belt that one had.