Nerf.... some people (split from Cover Swap thread)

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@TheXMan said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Let's also not forget that when they created that turn 0 win character they already knew that the Supports existed to make it possible. So they didn't do that in a vacuum - either they did it on purpose or they didn't see the consequences which I find hard to believe. So again these very avoidable problems arise through choice as much as accident.

I choose to believe it was an accident.

That's, admittedly...not great. It means they don't really understand their own game well enough to see that she creates a guaranteed turn 0 win.

But the alternative is way worse. If they purposely created a chase character that did this, knowing they'd eventually have to fix it...well, I don't want to play a game that's made by people who would do that.

We're never going to get the real answer anyway, because both answers make them look pretty bad. So I choose to believe the one that lets me keep playing and supporting them.

I don't know which one is worst but both are bad.

Eh. Designing this stuff is hard. If we want them to occasionally push the power level (and we do, because the alternative is Demiurge's awful run of post-Gambit characters) then they're going to make mistakes sometimes.

I can accept that they'll occasionally go to far when they do this, by accident, and then need to rein something in after the fact.

But I can't support a company that deliberately runs pump-and-dump schemes on their players, and you shouldn't either. If they purposely make pushed characters to generate sales, knowing they plan to nerf them down the line, then they're evil and I will quit and find a game that's made by people who aren't evil.

Again, we're never going to know the real answer anyway, so I'll choose to believe the answer that lets me keep playing.

Didn't you repeatedly say the only point of this game is for them to make money? Wouldn't pump-and-dump be a valid strategy?

Of course not. If I run a store, the only point of that store is to make money. Everything I do is in service of that goal. There's nothing evil about that, I'm running a business.

A scheme like what's being described here would be selling merchandise that I knew was defective. There's no way I'd shop at a store if I knew they were doing that.

Not sure this is true. The equipment works fine to begin with but doesn't have an unending guarantee. That sounds like most things in life?

Eh, this would mean that they're intentionally selling something with a predefined expiration date that they know, but you don't.

Remember, in this scenario, devs purposely created and sold pushed characters that they've already planned to nerf at some future date. It's a pretty classic bait and switch if that was their intent.

@Omegased said:
The addition of supports in PvP have made some characters like mthor way more challenging. Her going invisible, or more shuffles it's asinine.

Roll back the PvP supports and you won't need to change anyone.

I disagree. If anything, supports make PVP playable again.

Any time I jump into SHIELD Simulator, every team is either MThor, Polaris or May. If I'm not playing an aggressively dull meta team to counter those teams, it's a coin toss whether I clear the node easily, or I take heavy damage/lose. Sometimes I'll play perfectly with a homebrewed team, but still lose on turn 2 or 3 because the meta characters are that much better than the rest of the roster.

With PVP supports, I've at least got defensive options to make the rest of my roster viable. I'd certainly rather obliterate May with my PVP supports than face her without then.

@Rejoinder said:

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@Omegased said:
The addition of supports in PvP have made some characters like mthor way more challenging. Her going invisible, or more shuffles it's asinine.

Roll back the PvP supports and you won't need to change anyone.

I disagree. If anything, supports make PVP playable again.

Any time I jump into SHIELD Simulator, every team is either MThor, Polaris or May. If I'm not playing an aggressively dull meta team to counter those teams, it's a coin toss whether I clear the node easily, or I take heavy damage/lose. Sometimes I'll play perfectly with a homebrewed team, but still lose on turn 2 or 3 because the meta characters are that much better than the rest of the roster.

With PVP supports, I've at least got defensive options to make the rest of my roster viable. I'd certainly rather obliterate May with my PVP supports than face her without then.

So I disagree. If I go to shield Sim, all I see is 4ironmay/chasm/omegared.

In pick twos I see mthor with fantasticar, and the other jabroni with leapfrog.

Leapfrog sends them invisible. Mthor crushes.

@entrailbucket said:

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@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@TheXMan said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Let's also not forget that when they created that turn 0 win character they already knew that the Supports existed to make it possible. So they didn't do that in a vacuum - either they did it on purpose or they didn't see the consequences which I find hard to believe. So again these very avoidable problems arise through choice as much as accident.

I choose to believe it was an accident.

That's, admittedly...not great. It means they don't really understand their own game well enough to see that she creates a guaranteed turn 0 win.

But the alternative is way worse. If they purposely created a chase character that did this, knowing they'd eventually have to fix it...well, I don't want to play a game that's made by people who would do that.

We're never going to get the real answer anyway, because both answers make them look pretty bad. So I choose to believe the one that lets me keep playing and supporting them.

I don't know which one is worst but both are bad.

Eh. Designing this stuff is hard. If we want them to occasionally push the power level (and we do, because the alternative is Demiurge's awful run of post-Gambit characters) then they're going to make mistakes sometimes.

I can accept that they'll occasionally go to far when they do this, by accident, and then need to rein something in after the fact.

But I can't support a company that deliberately runs pump-and-dump schemes on their players, and you shouldn't either. If they purposely make pushed characters to generate sales, knowing they plan to nerf them down the line, then they're evil and I will quit and find a game that's made by people who aren't evil.

Again, we're never going to know the real answer anyway, so I'll choose to believe the answer that lets me keep playing.

Didn't you repeatedly say the only point of this game is for them to make money? Wouldn't pump-and-dump be a valid strategy?

Of course not. If I run a store, the only point of that store is to make money. Everything I do is in service of that goal. There's nothing evil about that, I'm running a business.

A scheme like what's being described here would be selling merchandise that I knew was defective. There's no way I'd shop at a store if I knew they were doing that.

Not sure this is true. The equipment works fine to begin with but doesn't have an unending guarantee. That sounds like most things in life?

Eh, this would mean that they're intentionally selling something with a predefined expiration date that they know, but you don't.

Remember, in this scenario, devs purposely created and sold pushed characters that they've already planned to nerf at some future date. It's a pretty classic bait and switch if that was their intent.

I'm pretty sure that has been the case with lots of things from some of these companies. Weren't Apple a bit infamous for it?

In this case they already say up from in the T&C that nothing is forever etc and they reserve the right to blah blah.

Nerf. Equal wallet closed forever. Nerf them then will never ever put another cent into this game

Well that is until the next one star for 20 😂😂😂😂😂

@entrailbucket said:

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@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@TheXMan said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Let's also not forget that when they created that turn 0 win character they already knew that the Supports existed to make it possible. So they didn't do that in a vacuum - either they did it on purpose or they didn't see the consequences which I find hard to believe. So again these very avoidable problems arise through choice as much as accident.

I choose to believe it was an accident.

That's, admittedly...not great. It means they don't really understand their own game well enough to see that she creates a guaranteed turn 0 win.

But the alternative is way worse. If they purposely created a chase character that did this, knowing they'd eventually have to fix it...well, I don't want to play a game that's made by people who would do that.

We're never going to get the real answer anyway, because both answers make them look pretty bad. So I choose to believe the one that lets me keep playing and supporting them.

I don't know which one is worst but both are bad.

Eh. Designing this stuff is hard. If we want them to occasionally push the power level (and we do, because the alternative is Demiurge's awful run of post-Gambit characters) then they're going to make mistakes sometimes.

I can accept that they'll occasionally go to far when they do this, by accident, and then need to rein something in after the fact.

But I can't support a company that deliberately runs pump-and-dump schemes on their players, and you shouldn't either. If they purposely make pushed characters to generate sales, knowing they plan to nerf them down the line, then they're evil and I will quit and find a game that's made by people who aren't evil.

Again, we're never going to know the real answer anyway, so I'll choose to believe the answer that lets me keep playing.

Didn't you repeatedly say the only point of this game is for them to make money? Wouldn't pump-and-dump be a valid strategy?

Of course not. If I run a store, the only point of that store is to make money. Everything I do is in service of that goal. There's nothing evil about that, I'm running a business.

A scheme like what's being described here would be selling merchandise that I knew was defective. There's no way I'd shop at a store if I knew they were doing that.

Not sure this is true. The equipment works fine to begin with but doesn't have an unending guarantee. That sounds like most things in life?

Eh, this would mean that they're intentionally selling something with a predefined expiration date that they know, but you don't.

Remember, in this scenario, devs purposely created and sold pushed characters that they've already planned to nerf at some future date. It's a pretty classic bait and switch if that was their intent.

I'm pretty sure that has been the case with lots of things from some of these companies. Weren't Apple a bit infamous for it?

In this case they already say up from in the T&C that nothing is forever etc and they reserve the right to blah blah.

Apple actually got sued for this, and had to pay out a bunch of settlements.

Exactly, it was (and probably still is) common practice. Of course I am not suggesting that the Devs are guilty of anything but we KNOW they knew some characters were broken on release because they have said so. Chasm was one and Worthy Cap was another. Those two have something in common.

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@TheXMan said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Let's also not forget that when they created that turn 0 win character they already knew that the Supports existed to make it possible. So they didn't do that in a vacuum - either they did it on purpose or they didn't see the consequences which I find hard to believe. So again these very avoidable problems arise through choice as much as accident.

I choose to believe it was an accident.

That's, admittedly...not great. It means they don't really understand their own game well enough to see that she creates a guaranteed turn 0 win.

But the alternative is way worse. If they purposely created a chase character that did this, knowing they'd eventually have to fix it...well, I don't want to play a game that's made by people who would do that.

We're never going to get the real answer anyway, because both answers make them look pretty bad. So I choose to believe the one that lets me keep playing and supporting them.

I don't know which one is worst but both are bad.

Eh. Designing this stuff is hard. If we want them to occasionally push the power level (and we do, because the alternative is Demiurge's awful run of post-Gambit characters) then they're going to make mistakes sometimes.

I can accept that they'll occasionally go to far when they do this, by accident, and then need to rein something in after the fact.

But I can't support a company that deliberately runs pump-and-dump schemes on their players, and you shouldn't either. If they purposely make pushed characters to generate sales, knowing they plan to nerf them down the line, then they're evil and I will quit and find a game that's made by people who aren't evil.

Again, we're never going to know the real answer anyway, so I'll choose to believe the answer that lets me keep playing.

Didn't you repeatedly say the only point of this game is for them to make money? Wouldn't pump-and-dump be a valid strategy?

Of course not. If I run a store, the only point of that store is to make money. Everything I do is in service of that goal. There's nothing evil about that, I'm running a business.

A scheme like what's being described here would be selling merchandise that I knew was defective. There's no way I'd shop at a store if I knew they were doing that.

Not sure this is true. The equipment works fine to begin with but doesn't have an unending guarantee. That sounds like most things in life?

Eh, this would mean that they're intentionally selling something with a predefined expiration date that they know, but you don't.

Remember, in this scenario, devs purposely created and sold pushed characters that they've already planned to nerf at some future date. It's a pretty classic bait and switch if that was their intent.

I'm pretty sure that has been the case with lots of things from some of these companies. Weren't Apple a bit infamous for it?

In this case they already say up from in the T&C that nothing is forever etc and they reserve the right to blah blah.

Apple actually got sued for this, and had to pay out a bunch of settlements.

Exactly, it was (and probably still is) common practice. Of course I am not suggesting that the Devs are guilty of anything but we KNOW they knew some characters were broken on release because they have said so. Chasm was one and Worthy Cap was another. Those two have something in common.

Where did they say that about Chasm? My impression of it (and it might be wrong!) was that Chasm was intentionally pushed power-level-wise, but they didn't think he was broken or that he would definitely need a nerf.

@DAZ0273 said:

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@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@TheXMan said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
Let's also not forget that when they created that turn 0 win character they already knew that the Supports existed to make it possible. So they didn't do that in a vacuum - either they did it on purpose or they didn't see the consequences which I find hard to believe. So again these very avoidable problems arise through choice as much as accident.

I choose to believe it was an accident.

That's, admittedly...not great. It means they don't really understand their own game well enough to see that she creates a guaranteed turn 0 win.

But the alternative is way worse. If they purposely created a chase character that did this, knowing they'd eventually have to fix it...well, I don't want to play a game that's made by people who would do that.

We're never going to get the real answer anyway, because both answers make them look pretty bad. So I choose to believe the one that lets me keep playing and supporting them.

I don't know which one is worst but both are bad.

Eh. Designing this stuff is hard. If we want them to occasionally push the power level (and we do, because the alternative is Demiurge's awful run of post-Gambit characters) then they're going to make mistakes sometimes.

I can accept that they'll occasionally go to far when they do this, by accident, and then need to rein something in after the fact.

But I can't support a company that deliberately runs pump-and-dump schemes on their players, and you shouldn't either. If they purposely make pushed characters to generate sales, knowing they plan to nerf them down the line, then they're evil and I will quit and find a game that's made by people who aren't evil.

Again, we're never going to know the real answer anyway, so I'll choose to believe the answer that lets me keep playing.

Didn't you repeatedly say the only point of this game is for them to make money? Wouldn't pump-and-dump be a valid strategy?

Of course not. If I run a store, the only point of that store is to make money. Everything I do is in service of that goal. There's nothing evil about that, I'm running a business.

A scheme like what's being described here would be selling merchandise that I knew was defective. There's no way I'd shop at a store if I knew they were doing that.

Not sure this is true. The equipment works fine to begin with but doesn't have an unending guarantee. That sounds like most things in life?

Eh, this would mean that they're intentionally selling something with a predefined expiration date that they know, but you don't.

Remember, in this scenario, devs purposely created and sold pushed characters that they've already planned to nerf at some future date. It's a pretty classic bait and switch if that was their intent.

I'm pretty sure that has been the case with lots of things from some of these companies. Weren't Apple a bit infamous for it?

In this case they already say up from in the T&C that nothing is forever etc and they reserve the right to blah blah.

Apple actually got sued for this, and had to pay out a bunch of settlements.

Exactly, it was (and probably still is) common practice. Of course I am not suggesting that the Devs are guilty of anything but we KNOW they knew some characters were broken on release because they have said so. Chasm was one and Worthy Cap was another. Those two have something in common.

Where did they say that about Chasm? My impression of it (and it might be wrong!) was that Chasm was intentionally pushed power-level-wise, but they didn't think he was broken or that he would definitely need a nerf.

I guess we had different takes on it but they knew he wasn't a normal release.

It's a fine line, and like I said, we're never going to find out anyway.

But I am broadly ok with them pushing power level and taking chances on stuff. If they play it too safe things get stagnant and nobody wants the new guys, which is boring and also bad for sales.

Pushing power level necessarily means taking those chances though, and taking chances means sometimes going too far. They're not perfect -- they are going to mess up.

I just wish they would identify, and then fix, those mistakes faster. We all knew Chasm was a problem a few weeks after his release. I don't THINK they are intentionally holding off on fixes to generate sales, but...well, there's no evidence that they're NOT doing that, either.

They could fix the Thor/polaris interaction without touching either character directly by just putting a delay on Iron Proficiency proccing before the cascade resolves.

@DAZ0273 said:

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@ThaRoadWarrior said:
Worthy Cap was a totally different set of Devs though.

Welllllllll...sort of. IceIX was involved with that one and he is very much still with us.

Ice actually works for the publisher, not the devs -- D3, now 505.

What does that mean about what he does or how involved he is with new characters, nerfs, etc? No idea!