*** Sentry (Dark Avengers) ***

BillyBobJoe

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Your math is very off.

Ouch. You're right. I forgot the multiplier in there.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

kthunder wrote:

I don't see how sentry is a problem.

He makes people buy more HP for shields, 1+ to all AP boosts and health packs.

I have never spent so much on HP for PVP events to reach +1500 scores before I was able to max out Sentry and Hood to shield hop.

Sentry and Hood combo is only good for shield hopping, good luck using them as your main team as they will rarely last more than 2 pvp matches, they are even worse if you don't boost.

By that logic, a character that said "0AP: win the game, but all your characters die as well" is totally balanced, right?

Lol pretty much, pay to win (What a great business model).

locked wrote:

kthunder wrote:

I don't see how sentry is a problem.

He makes people buy more HP for shields, 1+ to all AP boosts and health packs.

I have never spent so much on HP for PVP events to reach +1500 scores before I was able to max out Sentry and Hood to shield hop.

Sentry and Hood combo is only good for shield hopping, good luck using them as your main team as they will rarely last more than 2 pvp matches, they are even worse if you don't boost.

I am able to reach 1500 with 2-3 shields, maybe 1 if lucky (1 to 1400, unshield at the end and get 100 points in 2 fights), provided I have a maxed featured that works decently enough as a deterrent and doesn't screw Sentry/XF on defense badly (looking at you, Beast and Mohawk). No need to spend on HP boosts either, I only try to use them once or twice per event, never ever buy them or healthpacks and do most of my hops with ISO boosts only (3 green/black, 3 red/yellow, no maxed Intimidation). Of course I'm going to somewhat miss being able to go for 1500 scores easily enough, but rewards - ta da! - stop at 1300, and it would actually be a good thing if 1st places could still be won with that kind of score and not 1600-2000.

This is easy to be said for someone with a stacked roster as yourself locked.

As for myself I will get attacked non stop after reaching 800 points.


Is anyone able to plot out the total user base vs time?
I have a strange feeling that this game is on its last leg.

BillyBobJoe

BillyBobJoe wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Your math is very off.

Ouch. You're right. I forgot the multiplier in there.

IlDuderino wrote:

So you agree he needs a nerf?

Not only did I forget to add the multiple strike tiles I was using the wrong number for WR. (Please excuse this since I do not have a 166 Sentry).

Now that I can see the actual numbers, yes. I will agree he needs a nerf. Reducing Sacrifice will not do well since BP will allow the same scenario to continue. Daken's strike tiles are too easy to achieve and 15K in total damage IS alot.

It was a great discussion/debate here boys. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I humbly admit defeat, and ask that you be easy on me.

IlDuderino

BillyBobJoe wrote:

BillyBobJoe wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Your math is very off.

Ouch. You're right. I forgot the multiplier in there.

IlDuderino wrote:

So you agree he needs a nerf?

Not only did I forget to add the multiple strike tiles I was using the wrong number for WR. (Please excuse this since I do not have a 166 Sentry).

Now that I can see the actual numbers, yes. I will agree he needs a nerf. Reducing Sacrifice will not do well since BP will allow the same scenario to continue. Daken's strike tiles are too easy to achieve and 15K in total damage IS alot.

It was a great discussion/debate here boys. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I humbly admit defeat, and ask that you be easy on me.

In your defence, taking away his strike tile would significantly hinder him as a shield hopper as he would have to be paired with Daken to get the best strikes behind world rupture and so would potentially be weak attacking teams with a Hood (and most will have a Hood at high level)

over_clocked

kthunder, Sentry is an incidental P2W character but he doesn't need _that_ much money. Flo of X-Men used to have exactly 3 characters: maxed Sentry, Daken and what, Fury? I don't remember the third now (wasn't the Hood though) but it illustrated Sentry OPness very well. One didn't even need PvE characters because PvP has better, more generous rewards.
Back in earlier days of Sentry-hopping, you didn't even need the decently leveled featured, didn't need the featured at all, period. Now it's a bit trickier since many more people have leveled various characters, Sentry/Daken/Hood included, leading to more attacks on people without a decent featured. Still, It's absolutely doable even with a weak featured to get 700+ pts after some tanking; then get some good retals and quickly climb as high as healthpacks allow, firstly using non-Sentry teams, at least for another 200-300 points (if you have maxed Sentry/Hood/Daken it's surprising you need to shield before you hit at least 1000-1100 - Sentry is THAT fast). The point is, some/most people do have to spend to support the Sentry game but it's not nearly as much as directly buying covers for characters that you can win by Sentry-bombing.
The revenue from shields, healthpacks and boosts is not nearly as big as you would think either. Sentry needs to be nerfed because he makes most other characters unviable for PvP, which is an unhealthy situation as illustrated above by NorthernPolarity and other posters. You have Hulk on defense? His high health is nothing to Sac + Rupture combo. You have Deadpool who wants to cover for teammates? Sentry AoE attacks completely evade triggering Deadpool's passive. You have Thor, with his high health and strong abilities? When Thor has got enough AP to do a single non-game-winning Call The Storm, Sentry has won 3-4 matches already. Etc, etc. Captain America never has time to fling a shield, Patch never can regen a single blow since he just dies with the best of them, Captain Marvel generates 30 red and 20 black to no avail because her team including herself dies on the very same turn.

Don't you worry about the game's health either, after a good Sentry funbalance, where he is still playable just not meta-shifting, and giving third powers to Ragnarok, Loki and Doom 3*s will be much more balanced, with plenty room for work, of course, but new characters take priority as stated by devs and that's understandable.

Unknown

locked wrote:

kthunder, Sentry is an incidental P2W character but he doesn't need _that_ much money. Flo of X-Men used to have exactly 3 characters: maxed Sentry, Daken and what, Fury? I don't remember the third now (wasn't the Hood though) but it illustrated Sentry OPness very well. One didn't even need PvE characters because PvP has better, more generous rewards.
Back in earlier days of Sentry-hopping, you didn't even need the decently leveled featured, didn't need the featured at all, period. Now it's a bit trickier since many more people have leveled various characters, Sentry/Daken/Hood included, leading to more attacks on people without a decent featured. Still, It's absolutely doable even with a weak featured to get 700+ pts after some tanking; then get some good retals and quickly climb as high as healthpacks allow, firstly using non-Sentry teams, at least for another 200-300 points (if you have maxed Sentry/Hood/Daken it's surprising you need to shield before you hit at least 1000-1100 - Sentry is THAT fast). The point is, some/most people do have to spend to support the Sentry game but it's not nearly as much as directly buying covers for characters that you can win by Sentry-bombing.
The revenue from shields, healthpacks and boosts is not nearly as big as you would think either. Sentry needs to be nerfed because he makes most other characters unviable for PvP, which is an unhealthy situation as illustrated above by NorthernPolarity and other posters. You have Hulk on defense? His high health is nothing to Sac + Rupture combo. You have Deadpool who wants to cover for teammates? Sentry AoE attacks completely evade triggering Deadpool's passive. You have Thor, with his high health and strong abilities? When Thor has got enough AP to do a single non-game-winning Call The Storm, Sentry has won 3-4 matches already. Etc, etc. Captain America never has time to fling a shield, Patch never can regen a single blow since he just dies with the best of them, Captain Marvel generates 30 red and 20 black to no avail because her team including herself dies on the very same turn.

Don't you worry about the game's health either, after a good Sentry funbalance, where he is still playable just not meta-shifting, and giving third powers to Ragnarok, Loki and Doom 3*s will be much more balanced, with plenty room for work, of course, but new characters take priority as stated by devs and that's understandable.

You hit on some very important points there in regards to all the other characters barely being usable. I have the following at the top of my roster (not even bragging, just put a lot of time and some money into):

221 X-Force
166 Black Panther
166 Lazy Cap
166 Laken
166 Deadpool
166 Sentry
166 Hood
166 Hulk
166 Punisher
166 L Thor
166 Patch

etc... Do you know how many of those I actually use?? 2 or 3... I use X-Force and Laken on my PVP climb before I shield.. and then depending on how much HP I want to spend I shield around 700-800 (which is when I really start getting hit hard) and shield hop to around 1000-1200 about 4-5 times. Sentry has completely changed the game because there's no point in bothering with most of my other guys (even though I do some for fun on the PVP climb) but at the top end, it's Sentry/Hood or Sentry/Laken. I can use Xforce to beat Sentry/hood teams but at that point you lose points as fast as you make them because you're getting Sentry bombed.. It would be nice to be able to actually have some use for L Thor and BP and L Cap at some point again..

Unknown

Locked - There is no argument that Sentry is the most powerful character in the game.

They need to fix MMR before nerfing Sentry.

Being matched up with max featured character + Xforce + Laken for every game when I hit 700-800 points is unreasonable when I only have 4 maxed 166 characters and getting nailed for more points than I can generate.

Currently Sentry is the only thing that closes the gap between the good and the super advanced players in this game.

Unknown

kthunder wrote:

Locked - There is no argument that Sentry is the most powerful character in the game.

They need to fix MMR before nerfing Sentry.

Being matched up with max featured character + Xforce + Laken for every game when I hit 700-800 points is unreasonable when I only have 4 maxed 166 characters and getting nailed for more points than I can generate.

Currently Sentry is the only thing that closes the gap between the good and the super advanced players in this game.

Why would the number of 166 characters you have matter when you only get to use 2 of them on most PvP events (you don't get to control the third character being picked)?

It really doesn't take that much to get two of the top tier PvP character which is why there's a whole mess of guys with maxed characters for PvP. X Force, for all his power, is extremely weak against himself, even an underleveled version of himself as long as that X Force has 5 black. Since there doesn't seem to be much intention to make 4* the next in progression, why should anyone be expected that there's a lot of people who are as strong as you on the high end? The only way that number would go down would be if people start quitting the game.

over_clocked

kthunder wrote:

Locked - There is no argument that Sentry is the most powerful character in the game.

They need to fix MMR before nerfing Sentry.

Being matched up with max featured character + Xforce + Laken for every game when I hit 700-800 points is unreasonable when I only have 4 maxed 166 characters and getting nailed for more points than I can generate.

Currently Sentry is the only thing that closes the gap between the good and the super advanced players in this game.

Using Sentry only raises your MMR further so that after the inevitable Sentry nerf you don't have a choice except level X-Force or tank. Use Sentry to get XF covers, especially black, at least, if for some reason you are averse to tanking.
Fixing Sentry is easier than doing anything to the match-making system. Besides, since everyone and their dog uses Sentry, maybe getting only Sentry/XF/Daken past 700-800 is simply because there are not many other teams, at least not shielded. Fixing Sentry would allow all those Hulks/Thors/cMags/BPs/etc emerge again. Not so sure about the likes of GSBW/Falcon/HT but it would be a step forward.
Sentry WILL be nerfed, maybe later than sooner but you need to be prepared and either have the next best option or lower your MMR, preferably both.

Unknown

BillyBobJoe wrote:

If team diversity is the issue, then why are people always using the same character for defense? Hulk, Thor, Sentry, and even Ares at the 2 star level are usually what I see at higher point values. You never see Falcon, GSBW, Storm, or *gasp* Loki. Spider-Man makes an appearance every now and then, but for the most part people are playing the high health/high damage characters. Everybody started pumping ISO into X-Force when he was reworked. I see him everywhere now.

Because I (and everyone else in the 3* range and some people in the 2* range) react to seeing a team made up of characters like that with "Ooh, free points OMNOMNOMNOM".

And yeah, even if you get rid of sacrifice... Okay, then we run Sentry Patch (16 green AP to end the game is still faster than anything non-Sentry) or Sentry BP (8k ain't bad either, plus added insurance with RotP) or Sentry Laken (Maybe it's just 5k AOE but it's 5k AOE FOR 7 AP - again, nothing even comes close)... Hell, you could even run Sentry Psylocke if you're really desperate for options; A 230-point strike tile is still massive damage.

over_clocked

^ Word. I effing love Predator and Prey tourneys since they allow to Sentry bomb without healthpack munching, ditto Psyduck, I even do makeshift World Rupture combos regularly because the ability is oh so OP: 1) bring Sentry and any good strike tile TUp (yeah, even good ole Judgement can work); 2) bring any good strike tile character and a WR TUp; 3) bring a WR TUp and a good strike tile TUp, and use whatever characters you want that can survive long enough to gather 15-16 TUAP and not die to WR proccing x)

Unknown

Oh god. You want extra insurance running a patch team? World Rupture Team Up. Suddenly, you have a way to drop 10k AOE on the opponent's head mid-game. How's that for power?

hurcules

locked wrote:

^ Word. I effing love Predator and Prey tourneys since they allow to Sentry bomb without healthpack munching, ditto Psyduck, I even do makeshift World Rupture combos regularly because the ability is oh so OP: 1) bring Sentry and any good strike tile TUp (yeah, even good ole Judgement can work); 2) bring any good strike tile character and a WR TUp; 3) bring a WR TUp and a good strike tile TUp, and use whatever characters you want that can survive long enough to gather 15-16 TUAP and not die to WR proccing x)

Agreed! And additional benefit of TU-based strike tile + rupture is...AI Hood can't suck TU AP away...yet.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Quoting Riggy from Compilation of Suggested Sentry Fixes. With 15 items, might be a good poll.

Since fixing Sentry is a big topic of discussion, and there was some rumor at NYCC that he's on the chopping block, I thought I would start scouring the posts to see what suggestions were out there. Feel free to add any that I may miss (this will be an ongoing editing as I find time to do this).

1. Increase World Rupture cost by 3: Increasing costs in the most common suggestion to slow him down. Moving World Rupture from 7 to 10 means an extra match is required to fire this off, which would drastically slow him down, especially if you're not boosting.
2. Add a Stun to sacrifice: There are several variants to this one.
   • Stuns for a fixed number of turns at the same time that it drops the strike tile. The advantage is that the rest of the team immediately takes advantage of his sacrifice while still keeping World Rupture from counting down.
   • Puts a countdown on a random tile at the same time it puts out the strike tile. Sentry is stunned for as long as that countdown is out (similar to Redwing). The advantage here is that you can negate the penalty by matching that tile away. Also benefits from Hood and is susceptible to OBW.
   • Puts out only a countdown and then puts the strike tile out when it expires (similar to Fury). This means a longer time needed to protect the tile, as well as a 1 turn lag behind World Rupture. Also interacts with Hood and OBW.
3. Decrease his overall health. A less popular option, but one that reflects his mental / emotional vulnerability. Possibly allows for him to be burned down or makes the use of his self-damaging abilities more of a tactical decision instead of an auto-use.
4. Only the first countdown on a turn benefits from Strike tiles. Having the strike tiles only affect the first World Rupture tile to go off would drastically nerf this ability. If strike tiles still affect tile matches, the likely cascades would still be devastating but the ability itself would do far less damage.
5. Make the first World Rupture tile destroy every world rupture tile and do damage for each tile destroyed. This functions the same way as one of the goon mutant tiles (destroys all purple) or similar to Fury's Demolition where the first trap matched destroys all other traps matched.
6. Make World Rupture a single target ability instead of AOE.. This would likely kill 1 opponent and start damaging a 2nd. Could also include reducing or removing the self-damage portion of the ability as well.
7. Reduce the damage done by Sacrifice. Knock off a portion of the damage the strike tile does and a similar portion of the self damage it does.
8. Replace Sacrifice with a different ability. World Rupture seems more fundamental to the character design than Sacrifice. Removing Sacrifice would make World Rupture less strong while also creating a dependency on another character to generate strike tiles.
9. Reduce the number of World Rupture tiles, but increase their damage. Overall ability damage would remain the same, but would reduce the impact of strike tiles. It would also reduce the number of potential cascades which further reduces the impact of strike tiles on World Rupture.
10. Staggered World Rupture countdowns. When World Rupture is cast, have a third of the countdowns be <x>, a third be <x+1>, and a third be <x+2>. This would mean more time to react to the ability as well as a longer time to protect and/or create strike tiles.
11. Seriously slow down animation for World Rupture. Reminiscent of the old Daken passive, annoy players into submission. Make shield hopping less feasible by slowing down the match length while leaving the power's ability intact.
12. Change World Rupture to Black. Changing World Rupture away from green reduces his synergy with Daken and Hood and seriously slows the combo down.
13. Increase self-damage. Make it more costly to the player to use this ability. Would be hard to avoid further allegations of "pay 2 win" with this option.
14. Turn the countdown tiles into visible traps. Each time one is matched, the effect for that trap goes off. Allow tile overwriting as it exists now. This kills the current shield-hopping strategies with this character while adding "flavor" to the board (the "visible traps" could be "ruptured tiles").
15. Sentry teams can't use AP Boosts and/or Shielding. Change the Rainbow Tile Buff, that gives +1 to ."Sorry, this Buff cannot be used by teams featuring Sentry." Could also apply to the buff and the buff. Change Shields so that teams with Sentry cannot be Shielded. Sentry is a disrupted force, after all. "Sorry, you'll need to win a match with a team not featuring Sentry in order to Shield." That would severely slow down shield-hopping, at least by using Sentry.

***
Edited to add final poll results.

Item - Votes - % of Total Votes
1. Increase WR cost by 3. - 46 - 17%
2. Add a Stun to sacrifice. - 25 - 9%
3. Decrease his overall health. - 7 - 3%
4. Remove Strike tile multiplier. - 18 - 7%
5. First WR tile destroys every WR tile. - 34 - 13%
6. WR attacks one target at a time, not AOE. - 36 - 13%
7. Reduce the damage done by Sacrifice. - 5 - 2%
8. Replace Sacrifice with a different ability. - 14 - 5%
9. Reduce the number of WR tiles, but increase damage. - 21 - 8%
10. Staggered WR countdowns. - 16 - 6%
11. Slow down animation for World Rupture. - 6 - 2%
12. Change World Rupture to Black. - 14 - 5%
13. Increase self-damage. - 15 - 6%
14. Replace WR countdown tiles with visible traps. - 3 - 1%
15. Ban Sentry teams from AP boosts / Shields. - 7 - 3%

Unknown

#6 seems the most reasonable. I also brainstormed another idea:

How about we make it so that countdown tiles simply change into a basic tile, instead of being completely destroyed? This would stop the potential for tile cascades, and reduce the impact of WR.

Unknown

JessyC01 wrote:

#6 seems the most reasonable.

My only problem with #6 is that it seems far too similar to his current red, it just staggers the tile destruction instead of doing it all at once.

For serious fixes, I think I prefer one of the stun variants. It leaves the raw power of the ability intact (can still single-handedly destroy the entire opposing team) while slowing it down by 2-4 turns. The whole debate around Sentry (to me) is very similar to the discussion around the "critical turn zero" in Vintage/Type 1 Magic the Gathering. My primary goal with "fixing" Sentry is just to slow him down to make shield hopping less viable as a strategy.

For not-so-serious fixes, I prefer Nonce's "don't allow shields/boosts while Sentry is on your team." Except Deadpool needs to pop up to deliver that message to the player, maybe with an insult. And then sit there and waste time for a bit too, talking about pancakes - make the user click a few extra times.

CrookedKnight

My preference is for fewer tiles with more damage per tile, with an increase in the cost of the move so it's not a turn-two option. But that might not be enough to balance it...maybe with a Sacrifice nerf at the same time?

Unknown

I did not see this up here, but seems like an easier way to seriously address the problem.

Each CD tile that activates performs a reverse Falcon Yellow on all strike tiles (probably damaging the team's strategy in lieu of the player's team taking physical damage). This way each time a WR CD tile goes off it weakens all (or a set number of) strike triles. This means that each WR CD would cause less and less damage. Therefore; it is not a quick game ender. If you get out two Sacrifices and maybe some other strike tiles, etc., a WR could kill off an opposing team, but this would take a lot of time and two Sacrifices would cause a lot of damage to Sentry.

I do not like the "all CD tiles proc at the same time" idea because it is overly complicated. What if someone uses Hood less than 5 black, what if someone Bagman Yellows some CD's, etc. It's just a bunch of technical issues waiting to happen.

So to summarize, Sentry could still wipe an opposing team but it would take much longer (about the time of Sentry-less team composition). This way Sentry (especially with Supernova) is still very powerful since "that's kind of his thing," but it's not a minute insta-win character. Sentry would be as proficient as other top tier characters aka balanced.

Edits - Lots of spelling corrections. I know. I can't believe I made the corrections either.

Unknown

JessyC01 wrote:

#6 seems the most reasonable. I also brainstormed another idea:

How about we make it so that countdown tiles simply change into a basic tile, instead of being completely destroyed? This would stop the potential for tile cascades, and reduce the impact of WR.

But the cascade gives potential of matching strike tiles away. Also, if a power with a name like World Rupture can't shake up the board, what can?

Nonce Equitaur 2

Riggy wrote:

For not-so-serious fixes, I prefer Nonce's "don't allow shields/boosts while Sentry is on your team." Except Deadpool needs to pop up to deliver that message to the player.

[Clippy Deadpool appears as a Sentry team that used boosts tries to shield.]
"Hey! Looks like you've looking for lots of fast fights. Let me help you with that!"
[Deadpool points at a new special node.]
"I've added this special node for everyone in your bracket. They can all see you and visit! And just to make it fair, I've given them free boosts. You'll probably lose 50 points for each team that beats you, but hey, you have Sentry! You'll probably get 2 points for each team that loses to you!"
"So, did I do good? Do you appreciate my help?"
[YES!!] [no]
[If the player presses YES!!. "Great! I'll let you have that shield for free in about fifteen minutes."]
[Each time player presses no, the team loses 65% of health to "A Little Off the Top" animation before facing challengers. Stuck there until they press YES!!]