Gender bias in MPQ

Unknown

kensterr wrote:

please look at my reply in your original post in the Mostorm thread. Refer to Marvel wiki or whatever link I posted there for the durability ratings of almost all Marvel characters.

I will only start to agree if Demiurge gives Emma Frost (astonishing), Rogue, She-Hulk, Ms Marvel, Jean Grey (phoenix) and other power hitters the same health points as Psylocke or lower than Psylocke.

To clarify, I don't have a problem with keeping the durability similar to the comics. The issue is that they haven't released any/many strong characters that buck that trend, and more generally haven't been releasing more than a token representation of female characters.

Here's a look at the distinct characters in this game, not counting duplicates...
24 Male Characters: Ares, Black Panther, Bullseye, Cap, Daken, Daredevil, Doctor Doom, Falcon, IM, Hawkeye, Hood, Hulk, Human Torch, Jugg, Loki, Magneto, Nick Fury, Punisher, Ragnarok, Sentry, Spiderman, Thor, Venom, Wolv
7 Female Characters: BW, Invisible Woman, Moonstone, Pyslock, She=Hulk, Storm, Yelena

Like I said, maybe if they actually started releasing female characters in balance with male ones, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It's not just a question of whether or not they're intentionally making female characters weak (as I said before, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt on this one), it's that they haven't released enough to have a more balanced range of female characters.

People can keep saying the current number of ones available is fine, but to me, 3.5 : 1 is an absurdly low ratio.

Another way of thinking about this is as follows: let's assume you can only have 7 distinct male heroes in the game.
1) Pick the 7 male heroes you'd like to keep in the game: (I'm guess most would say something like Daken, Hood, Magneto, Sentry, Thor/Hulk, Wolv)
2) Now compare them to the 7 existing female characters, and see how they stack up:
Daken, Hood, Magneto, Spider-Man (pre-nerf), Sentry, Thor/Hulk, Wolv
Pyslocke, BW, Storm, Yelena, Moonstone, She-Hulk, Invisible Woman
1 ~, 2 ~, 3 ~, 4 <, 5 <. 6 <

So of the distinct female characters 3.5 have equivalent versions to their male counterparts, while 3.5 are substantially worse than their male counterparts. I suppose one way to correct that imbalance would be to buff / release stronger versions of the weaker heroes, but even if those 7 did match up, it still doesn't correct the fact that women represent only 1/4 of the heroes in the game ( less than that if you consider 3*'s overall), when they represent 1/2 of the world population.

[Edited to reflect She-Hulk release. Also, that 3.5 number comes from the OBW nerf, and the additional mstorm nerf that was promptly rolled back after prompt negative reaction to the change, which otherwise would've rendered useful female chars at ~2.5 / 7 ]

kensterr

theHappyDance wrote:

To clarify, I don't have a problem with keeping the durability similar to the comics. The issue is that they haven't released any strong characters that buck that trend, and more generally haven't been releasing more than a token representation of female characters.

OK, this I agree 100% with you.

I'm waiting for Demiurge to release strong female heroes as well, and so far have been fairly disappointed with their choices of hero release.

Copps

While I agree some of the female choices are a little underwhelming your goal of gender parity for releases is ridiculous. Even if they could achieve it in the short term by releasing most of the popular female characters in the marvel universe it isn't a sustainable path as there are simply many more male characters. Look at any of the groups in marvel. FF X-men Avengers hell even the list of Galactus's heralds. The far higher percentage of the characters available are male.

As an interesting exercise though who would be your ideal team if they reran no mans land. I'm assuming some mix of psylocke obw/Gsbw and either Mohawk storm or iw. Once she hulk is released that might change but we'll see.

NorthernPolarity

D3 is going to prioritize releasing popular characters because those characters are what are going to be them the most money. Looking at a top 100 marvel heroes list (http://www.comicvine.com/profile/gold_d ... ome/20472/), roughly 25% of the characters on there are female, so I don't really get your point of there being a "token" presence of females since the ratio seems about right given that loose guideline. It doesn't make sense at all to go for a straight up 50/50 split when there just aren't nearly as many popular female characters in the marvel universe. Your comment regarding getting a "token" She-Hulk also rubs me off the wrong way: isn't a strong/tanky female character like She-Hulk exactly what you were advocating for in the first place? That just makes it seem like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining as opposed to complaining because there is a big problem.

kensterr

NorthernPolarity wrote:

D3 is going to prioritize releasing popular characters because those characters are what are going to be them the most money. Looking at a top 100 marvel heroes list (http://www.comicvine.com/profile/gold_d ... ome/20472/), roughly 25% of the characters on there are female, so I don't really get your point of there being a "token" presence of females since the ratio seems about right given that loose guideline. It doesn't make sense at all to go for a straight up 50/50 split when there just aren't nearly as many popular female characters in the marvel universe. Your comment regarding getting a "token" She-Hulk also rubs me off the wrong way: isn't a strong/tanky female character like She-Hulk exactly what you were advocating for in the first place? That just makes it seem like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining as opposed to complaining because there is a big problem.

Thanks for the list. Yes, there aren't many popular female characters in that list - however Daken is not even in that list. So giving him a lazy makeover instead of spending time on X-23 who is in that list certainly had me scratching my head. Obviously holding back on fan-favorites like Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Rogue, Black Cat, Domino, Kitty Pryde, Ms Marvel, Elektra etc is puzzling for this puzzle quest.

Unknown

kensterr wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

D3 is going to prioritize releasing popular characters because those characters are what are going to be them the most money. Looking at a top 100 marvel heroes list (http://www.comicvine.com/profile/gold_d ... ome/20472/), roughly 25% of the characters on there are female, so I don't really get your point of there being a "token" presence of females since the ratio seems about right given that loose guideline. It doesn't make sense at all to go for a straight up 50/50 split when there just aren't nearly as many popular female characters in the marvel universe. Your comment regarding getting a "token" She-Hulk also rubs me off the wrong way: isn't a strong/tanky female character like She-Hulk exactly what you were advocating for in the first place? That just makes it seem like you're complaining just for the sake of complaining as opposed to complaining because there is a big problem.

Thanks for the list. Yes, there aren't many popular female characters in that list - however Daken is not even in that list. So giving him a lazy makeover instead of spending time on X-23 who is in that list certainly had me scratching my head. Obviously holding back on fan-favorites like Jean Grey, Emma Frost, Rogue, Black Cat, Domino, Kitty Pryde, Ms Marvel, Elektra etc is puzzling for this puzzle quest.

Lazy is the key word here, also known as little effort release while we work on other stuff.

Unknown

This is an interesting and tricky topic. I would say it is likely that gender is basically not considered when deciding who to implement in the game. As mentioned, there just are less women in comics. That is a problem as well, IMO. Ideally, the developers would respond to that by including more women, even if they are obscure, but I think the responses here indicate part of the problem with that scenario. People are inclined to be defensive and/or say it is the status quo, and therefore acceptable. Both of those are lazy arguments, but most people are not inclined to question themselves or their biases very much.

I do not think good female characters have not been included because they're not coming up in the storyline. That story is not set in stone, and they can introduce who they like. I do not think that there are no good female characters left. As mentioned, there are a lot of great female characters remaining.

I do think that if they kept the ratio to 50/50, they would run out of female heroes very quickly. I assume they intend to keep releasing more and more characters, and if so, just the plain fact of the waaaaay higher population of male to female heroes is going to cause a problem. Again, a problem that is integral to comics. Yes, they can always release more versions, but it would get a bit silly (one could argue it already is) with having inf versions of female characters to one or two versions of the male characters.

As to the lack of toughness in female characters, indeed most heroines are fragile. Most of the time they have "mental" powers like being psychic. So many psychic chicks! There are a few tough ones, but they are the minority in a minority! Rogue was always one of my favourite characters because of how against the mould of female superheroes she is. I expect (hope) that when they do release the tougher chicks, that they have the high amount of hit points they should, but we won't know until that distant hallowed day comes. If they release her and similar characters, making them only moderately tough, it will be a big problem. I don't think they will rush her or any other tough ones in to make women less wimpy in this game - I really don't think they care.

In summary: yes, it sucks that the female hero population is low compared to the male. However, the only way to change that is with effort and consideration, which I doubt the developers are inclined to give to this topic.

Unknown

Theomanic wrote:

In summary: yes, it sucks that the female hero population is low compared to the male. However, the only way to change that is with effort and consideration, which I doubt the developers are inclined to give to this topic.

The other thing to remember is, D3 is a business - they need to produce product that people will buy. If people don't want to spend money on female characters, it makes no sense for D3 to make them. That said, there seems to be no lack of popularity for female heroes in other superhero games, so I don't necessarily believe that's a big factor.

I do think it's a little interesting that they're introducing She-Hulk, a relatively minor character, instead of a higher profile heroine. I wonder if there's some master spreadsheet somewhere detailing the plans for character introductions for the next five years, with signature characters evenly spaced out on the timeline.

Unknown

ZenBrillig wrote:

I do think it's a little interesting that they're introducing She-Hulk, a relatively minor character, instead of a higher profile heroine.

Define higher profile. She's been a stable part of both the Avengers and the FF. She's had more issues of her own comic than any of the female characters and a fair number of the males. And, err, she was almost in a movie staring Brigette Nielsen *cough*, *shudder*.

The only thing I find surprising is that she made it before Carol Danvers since she has her "Dark" counterpart in the game already. She's also a natural for multiple versions since there have been at least 4 iterations of the character that I can think of.

Unknown

ivanstone wrote:

ZenBrillig wrote:

I do think it's a little interesting that they're introducing She-Hulk, a relatively minor character, instead of a higher profile heroine.

Define higher profile.

In this era, I define "higher profile" as "has been in the recent movie(s)."

Katai

Arbitrary categorization, for sure. The oddball thing about She-Hulk is that she's very prominent in the comics, but not in the movie-verse. She has had her own solo series of comics for decades, which Storm's solo adventure just barely got announced.

I think a lot of the bias we're seeing in the game is coming directly out of the bias that comes out of the comics. Can't really be helped unless we start putting in lesser known heroes (I'd give you all my money for Princess Powerful).

Unknown

I think the real problem with the character releases in this game is that they're apparently chosen by a dart board with Marvel characters written on it. After all, this is one of the only possible explanations for Iron Patriot's conspicuous absence.

I want tanky ladies, too. I don't think their absence is indicative of any active bias, but I think it's a major bummer. Carol Danvers could put this whole topic to bed with one extraterrestrially empowered super punch. I guess She Hulk could be important, too, but for my own reasons I'm hoping she'll be two stars.

Emma Frost's eventual release should be a real possibility, and it occurred to me that her power set could allow for an interesting wrinkle in design space: a passive (diamond form) that just flatly increases her HP. A little boring, but still novel and would enable for significant build variation.

Oh, and even though she's all magic and such, Morgan Le Fay is pretty hard to kill. At the very least, she should get some kind of hard counter against Sentry.

I feel like I'm rambling. Carol Danvers!

kensterr

Off the top of my head (without listing whether they should be ** or ***)
Avengers: She-Hulk, Spider-woman, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Tigra, Carol Danvers
X-Men: Jean Grey, Jubilee, Polaris, Rogue, Domino, Kitty Pryde, Blink, X-23, Emma Frost, Goblin Queen, Lady Deathstryke
Others: Elektra, Blackcat, White Tiger, Gamorra

Katai

Most of the characters we've seen have been pretty true to the comics so far. I think only Storm, Black Panther, and Psylocke were the only ones really absent in the Dark Reign era.

Emma Frost and Carol Danvers would be key contenders to the female cast. Emma Frost was a part of Osborn's cabal (as both White Queen and Black Queen), and Moonstone needs to get her butt kicked by the real Ms. Marvel (with a possible Captain Marvel alt-cover).

Pwuz_

I was just thinking around the release of Falcon of how MPQ (and comics in general) have a serious racial bias as well as the gender bias. Where is Isaiah Bradley?

Katai

I would pay so much to have Eli Bradley o_o;;;;

Unknown

Anyone else find the OBW nerf wording questionable?

"Stolen stark tech increases enemy countdowns by 4. Gives a burst of 504 health to allies, plus 504 if there are no countdown tiles."

Kind of makes her sound like a prostitute providing temporary services for her clients (*cough* allies). The reason I say that is because without any further explanation of what the "stolen Stark tech" was and the weird specificity of the effect, it kind of implies that it's not the tech that's providing the "burst of health" to allies.

A bit disappointing, given how she previously was the one really badass female in the game, even if she had weak health.

Der_Lex

theHappyDance wrote:

Anyone else find the OBW nerf wording questionable?

"Stolen stark tech increases enemy countdowns by 4. Gives a burst of 504 health to allies, plus 504 if there are no countdown tiles."

Kind of makes her sound like a prostitute providing temporary services for her clients (*cough* allies). The reason I say that is because without any further explanation of what the "stolen Stark tech" was and the weird specificity of the effect, it kind of implies that it's not the tech that's providing the "burst of health" to allies.

A bit disappointing, given how she previously was the one really badass female in the game, even if she had weak health.

Not really. I think you're stretching more than a bit here.

Unknown

Der_Lex wrote:

theHappyDance wrote:

Anyone else find the OBW nerf wording questionable?

"Stolen stark tech increases enemy countdowns by 4. Gives a burst of 504 health to allies, plus 504 if there are no countdown tiles."

Kind of makes her sound like a prostitute providing temporary services for her clients (*cough* allies). The reason I say that is because without any further explanation of what the "stolen Stark tech" was and the weird specificity of the effect, it kind of implies that it's not the tech that's providing the "burst of health" to allies.

A bit disappointing, given how she previously was the one really badass female in the game, even if she had weak health.

Not really. I think you're stretching more than a bit here.

Maybe, but I think the power description would benefit from making up some kind of fancy term for "health shield" since the effect of the power is a lot more specific now, instead of making it sound like her healing power amounts to her putting out.

They also just nerfed 1* storm with the latest update, from what people are saying (9AP red now). So the only undeniably useful female characters in the game are now substantially weaker, and have much lower health than their counterparts. Now granted, there's She-Hulk, but I stopped playing before she was released so I can't comment on what she's like. But if she's actually useful, that would imply 2/7 distinct female characters (along with Psylocke) that you might actually use ever. Now granted, this probably has less to do with them wanting to portray women poorly, and more to do with gross incompetence and them having no idea how not to ruin their game in the interest of short-term profits (i.e. nerfing any characters who make it possible to play the game without constant micro-transactions).

Der_Lex

theHappyDance wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

theHappyDance wrote:

Anyone else find the OBW nerf wording questionable?

"Stolen stark tech increases enemy countdowns by 4. Gives a burst of 504 health to allies, plus 504 if there are no countdown tiles."

Kind of makes her sound like a prostitute providing temporary services for her clients (*cough* allies). The reason I say that is because without any further explanation of what the "stolen Stark tech" was and the weird specificity of the effect, it kind of implies that it's not the tech that's providing the "burst of health" to allies.

A bit disappointing, given how she previously was the one really badass female in the game, even if she had weak health.

Not really. I think you're stretching more than a bit here.

Maybe, but I think the power description would benefit from making up some kind of fancy term for "health shield" since the effect of the power is a lot more specific now, instead of making it sound like her healing power amounts to her putting out.

The thing is, you're the only person who thinks it sounds that way. Seriously, how can you objectively say that 'gives a burst of health' equates 'putting out'? I like you, Happy, you know that, but that's either some messed-up thinking on your part, or Jezebel-level searching for offense. Neither is particularly healthy or helpful to the cause you wish to support, and creates a 'Boy Who Cried Wolf' situation where people will ignore valid points you're making.