Gender bias in MPQ

dxanders

@dianetics said:

@dxanders said:
It sounds like you care a lot about those things, because we can both recognize that there are always bad stories, but you seem hellbent on marking good stories with diversity as not actually interested in representation and bad stories with diversity as bad because of the diversity. When, in all likelihood, they're just bad stories that happen to be diverse. and the evidence of why these stories are actually bad is generally already out there. Veilguard is a game known for its torturous production history in a series that's gotten criticism about narrative since the second entry, and the evidence of poor management and executive fiat is exhaustively documented. But of course those factors couldn't be to blame. It's DEI.

And I don't think that "I don't care about gender/race/sexuality" is the flex you think it is. Because what that sounds like is "I'm not curious to learn how other people's experiences are different from mine".

I'm similarly puzzled at the premise that representation isn't a critical component of the DNA for The Whale or Euphoria. In the former, the main character's trauma is absolutely related to his experience as a gay man (and is reflected in the real life story it's based on). In Euphoria, they cast a trans woman and brought in a trans consultant to accurately reflect the experience of a trans high school student. In both instances, representation is a major part of the package. Stories, at least good ones, don't come from nothing. Compelling characterization and an interesting journey is critical to them, but they're primarily an attempt for someone to share their lived experience or to reflect the lives experience of someone they find interesting or underrepresented. Diversity matters because it gives the audience a perspective into experiences they otherwise wouldn't be privy too. And bringing in actual people who have experienced different perspectives lends authenticity to those stories. Diversity is variety, and I like variety in my stories. But I think there's a media literacy gap at play here, and I really don't want to keep beating this same drum.

Man you really like to argue in bad faith. You are so emotionally invested in this it's sad. I have never mentioned DEI or woke in any of my posts you ascribed those to me. I said identity politics a form of tribalism or division based on group characteristics.

I'm not trying to flex anything. You are trying to derive your own meaning from what I am saying and placing that on me.

I don't care about whatever development issue's Veilguard had. The game came out with outright overt tribalism and pandering while talking down to the player. It did not allow you to do anything to get away from it.
I had similar problems with Starfield but at least you are not required to interact with the characters.
In BG3 I could just kill the character if they annoyed me or not interact with them at all.

You are intentionally missing my point with both The Whale and Euphoria.
The Whale wasn't good because he was gay.
The Whale was good because of the way his character was written and the obstacles he had to overcome. The character was gay and that was a plot driver.
Watching I wasn't think about the character being gay and he was not overtly stating he was gay. I accepted him being gay like any normal person would and let them tell a story.
He was selfish, self loathing, aimless, drive-less, and plenty of other things.
He did not have to overcome being gay, being gay wasn't an obstacle...he had to overcome his fears and attempt to reconcile with those around him he hurt.

I'm not trying to be mean here, but I'm genuinely at a loss trying to understand your logic here. The character's relationship with his sexuality is a plot driver, but you don't think about it? It's important context for how the character acts, the challenges he faces, and the decisions he makes. It's fundamentally a story about identity - how his relationship with his own identity shapes the actions he takes. Without that texture and context, stories are just a series of things happening, and story is more than that. Why things happen is just as important. And without a diverse range of identities and experiences in our stories, we're all poorer. My best guess is that you're complaining about characters that represent minority groups that are characterized as paper thin, but no one is disagreeing with you there! Nobody wants to be reduced to just a single aspect of their identity, as evidenced by complaints about tropes like the "gay best friend" or the misery porn that traditionally dominates Oscar bait about the black and queer experience. And what's the best way to ensure that characters from traditionally marginalized groups are presented as nuanced and well-rounded characters? By promoting diversity! Because someone who has lived an experience is best equipped to express that experience in a story. I think you're confusing correlation for causation here. If a black or trans or Asian character is poorly characterized, it's not because of their identity. It's in addition to it. And it's not a standard we typically apply to characters who's sole characteristics are "angry white man" or "stoic white man".

That said, I find it hard to believe you're arguing in good faith here. You keep appealing to what "everyone" wants or what 'normal people" do while multiple people in this thread say "no that's not what I want or do". You proclaim that no one has explained why diversity is important yet multiple people have, in multiple ways. You decry "identity politics" ruining franchises as if Marvel and Star Wars aren't littered with decades of forgettable detritus that has nothing to do with diversity. And when anyone mentions well-documented factors that might actually have contributed to poor storytelling, you shrug your shoulders and say you don't care. So I don't know what else to say. Good luck with all that.

LavaManLee

@KGB said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Based on how the 1st (and clearly most beloved) movie was filmed, I (and many others) call **** on that regardless of what George claims (esp since he stole so much of Star Wars from Hidden Fortress a Japanese movie). The original movie was very much filmed as a standalone one off movie. There is just no way there would have been all those romantic undertones between Luke/Leia if it was already known they were brother and sister. A big part of what made that movie was arguing over who would have ended up with her (Luke or Han) based on whether you liked bad boys or goody two shoes. It's obvious it was reconned in much later (3rd movie) that they were brother and sister.

KGB

Just because he had the idea didn't mean is plot was fleshed out. Not even remotely. But he had always wanted more movies. He just had no idea it would become so big and initially thought New Hope would be one and done. But it wasn't. However, he wanted more movies from the beginning. After the success of Star Wars and Empire, he figured someday he could do the rest. In 1981 (two years before RoTJ), he added "Episode IV" to the front of New Hope.

So many articles out there. Here's another:

https://www.cbr.com/why-george-lucas-started-star-wars-with-episode-4/

DAZ0273

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Why wait as long to do them then? Especially as a Star Wars 4 would have still had the core actors at prime movie ages. I won't pretend to be a Star Wars expert but if it was the case to keep going then it was chronic negligence not to make these movies whilst the cast was still available and young.

BriMan2222

@DAZ0273 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Why wait as long to do them then? Especially as a Star Wars 4 would have still had the core actors at prime movie ages. I won't pretend to be a Star Wars expert but if it was the case to keep going then it was chronic negligence not to make these movies whilst the cast was still available and young.

I could be misremembering, but I believe that Lucas said that it was audiences poor reaction to the prequel trilogy that put him off from wanting to do the sequel trilogy himself and that's why he never did one. He said that he had a blue print for the sequels all lined up and that when disney came to him wanting to buy it, he liked the idea of them continuing on his vision. Unfortunately, despite Disney telling him that they wanted to continue his vision and taking his notes, they decided to throw everything he gave them out the window and declare that the expanded Star wars universe novels and comics were no longer canon.

DAZ0273

@BriMan2222 said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Why wait as long to do them then? Especially as a Star Wars 4 would have still had the core actors at prime movie ages. I won't pretend to be a Star Wars expert but if it was the case to keep going then it was chronic negligence not to make these movies whilst the cast was still available and young.

I could be misremembering, but I believe that Lucas said that it was audiences poor reaction to the prequel trilogy that put him off from wanting to do the sequel trilogy himself and that's why he never did one. He said that he had a blue print for the sequels all lined up and that when disney came to him wanting to buy it, he liked the idea of them continuing on his vision. Unfortunately, despite Disney telling him that they wanted to continue his vision and taking his notes, they decided to throw everything he gave them out the window and declare that the expanded Star wars universe novels and comics were no longer canon.

I'm talking about the prequels! What was it, 16 years?!?! Talk about not striking whilst the iron was hot. It is hardly a convincing argument that he had plans at the time although of course I am not saying he didn't.

dxanders

@BriMan2222 said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Why wait as long to do them then? Especially as a Star Wars 4 would have still had the core actors at prime movie ages. I won't pretend to be a Star Wars expert but if it was the case to keep going then it was chronic negligence not to make these movies whilst the cast was still available and young.

I could be misremembering, but I believe that Lucas said that it was audiences poor reaction to the prequel trilogy that put him off from wanting to do the sequel trilogy himself and that's why he never did one. He said that he had a blue print for the sequels all lined up and that when disney came to him wanting to buy it, he liked the idea of them continuing on his vision. Unfortunately, despite Disney telling him that they wanted to continue his vision and taking his notes, they decided to throw everything he gave them out the window and declare that the expanded Star wars universe novels and comics were no longer canon.

Considering Lucas' plan was to double down on midichlorians and introduce microscopic god creatures controlling the force, I'm really curious how the outspoken fandom would have responded.

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

I was referring to the ancillary content and merchandising that Lucas himself either created or allowed to be created on his watch -- the musical holiday special, the Ewoks cartoon, comics, novels, video games, children's books, toys -- all rehashing or somehow "expanding" upon the 3 pretty good movies he made, almost none of it necessary or even worthwhile. Disney didn't create the firehose of content that the franchise has become, it's been a key feature since the beginning.

dxanders

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

I was referring to the ancillary content and merchandising that Lucas himself either created or allowed to be created on his watch -- the musical holiday special, the Ewoks cartoon, comics, novels, video games, children's books, toys -- all rehashing or somehow "expanding" upon the 3 pretty good movies he made, almost none of it necessary or even worthwhile. Disney didn't create the firehose of content that the franchise has become, it's been a key feature since the beginning.

And worth noting that even all the way back to the original trilogy's release, there was a significant contingent of fans who thought he'd only made two good movies (personally, I always like RotJ!).

KGB

@dxanders said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Franchises are dying because they should never have existed anyway, at least not in their current form. All these long-running comics series stay fresh by switching out authors, artists, etc over the years.

The X-Men in comics have been so many different things, and will be so many more different things, because every creator puts their own spin on them. James Bond adapts with the times. Sherlock Holmes gets reimagined in all sorts of ways.

But Star Wars can't be that. The MCU can't be that. Why? Because they have to cater to a fandom. When Disney bought Star Wars, I'm sure they thought they were buying a license to print unlimited money. What they were actually buying was a fan base that's unhealthily obsessed with 3 movies from 40+ years ago, and wants to be served the same regurgitated garbage over and over again so they can feel like kids forever.

The hardcore fans don't want new characters or new stories, they want a 3 hour deep dive into the backstory of that one alien who played the flute in the cantina in Episode IV, which of course will culminate in an epic lightsaber duel between AI Darth Vader and de-aged Luke Skywalker, as the audience cheers.

And the problem is that there's only hardcore fans left! These companies have spent so long isolating casuals -- shoveling out more product than anybody normal could ever watch and stuffing it chock full of completely nonsensical fan service -- that the only people still excited about the latest 18-epsode Disney Plus series are single adult men who sleep inside a plush tauntaun. And they hate anything that isn't Mark Hamill as Luke, dueling Darth Vader on the Death Star!

So let this stuff die. Star Wars was a rotting corpse before Lucas finished with it. The MCU is on the way. Support original storytelling and stop letting corporations exploit your nostalgia.

This is exactly it with Star Wars. Star Wars had an ending back in 1983. Then they dug it up and dragged the corpse around the block. It was never meant to be an ongoing soap opera like comic books have been. Darth Vader is one of the most two dimensional villains in history but that was fine, he had his redemption arc, story over. But no.

The MCU might become this but it still has a few tricks up its sleeve but eventually, it too will be nothing but an empty husk for entitled fanboys.

To be fair, nobody dug up a corpse and dragged it around the block. George Lucas had always wanted both prequels and sequels. Now, were the prequels and sequels good or even needed? That is certainly debatable. But it definitely was Lucas' intent to have them.

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-george-lucas-prequel-trilogies-plan-revealed/

Why wait as long to do them then? Especially as a Star Wars 4 would have still had the core actors at prime movie ages. I won't pretend to be a Star Wars expert but if it was the case to keep going then it was chronic negligence not to make these movies whilst the cast was still available and young.

I could be misremembering, but I believe that Lucas said that it was audiences poor reaction to the prequel trilogy that put him off from wanting to do the sequel trilogy himself and that's why he never did one. He said that he had a blue print for the sequels all lined up and that when disney came to him wanting to buy it, he liked the idea of them continuing on his vision. Unfortunately, despite Disney telling him that they wanted to continue his vision and taking his notes, they decided to throw everything he gave them out the window and declare that the expanded Star wars universe novels and comics were no longer canon.

Considering Lucas' plan was to double down on midichlorians and introduce microscopic god creatures controlling the force, I'm really curious how the outspoken fandom would have responded.

Every bit as poorly then as they did in 99 when he started the prequels.

He turned the force into something anyone had the potential to achieve (a combination of destiny & study) into something that made some people into superior beings in every sense of the negative genetic connotations that go along with that. It's arguably the bigger sin than JarJar Binks in the prequels.

For what it's worth, I thought Spaceballs was better done than any of the prequel movies. At least I still watch it and get a bunch of laughs every time at the how it skewers so many things (not just Star Wars).

KGB

Scofie

OK, I think I'm gonna call it there for this thread, since we've veered further off topic, but I thought it was an important discussion to have and hopefully everyone has made the points they wanted to.