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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,846 Chairperson of the Boards

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    Some dev said something somewhere (discord?) about a list of characters they were looking at, and Polaris and m'Thor were both on it (with one of the Aunt Mays I think?). That was before all the engine chaos though, so who knows.

  • Daniel2121
    Daniel2121 Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 161 Tile Toppler

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    Personally, I'd like to see 'something' done to them, but i won't hold my breath. IMHO, the situation is different than those previous big bat nerfed guys in that, players probably still gotten some wins against them.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,115 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daniel2121 said:

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

    And I don't think any of those supports NEEDED a nerf, sometimes they caused cascades sometimes they didn't, none of the 4 they removed were unbeatable just like mThor and Polaris aren't unbeatable.

    But if they are rebalancing then rebalance. Take the most OP characters and make them less OP. Take the most useless characters and bring them to a place where they are useful.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,846 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daniel2121 said:

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

    They are absolutely not weak on defense. 550 m'Thor/Polaris can very easily cascade you for 500,000 damage in one turn, and they set that up as early as turn 3. The turn after that, you're dead, no matter how much health you have.

    Leapfrog and Eros dying helps a LOT, but a 3 turn clock is really fast for unboosted characters against boosted.

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 161 Tile Toppler

    Make weaker ones stronger is the only way. Any forms of nerf will get backlash. Period.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,846 Chairperson of the Boards

    @kuntilanak said:
    Make weaker ones stronger is the only way. Any forms of nerf will get backlash. Period.

    Of course! Instead of nerfing m'Thor or Polaris, they should simply buff the other 400 characters!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,846 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @kuntilanak said:
    Make weaker ones stronger is the only way. Any forms of nerf will get backlash. Period.

    Of course! Instead of nerfing m'Thor or Polaris, they should simply buff the other 400 characters!

    I was joking obviously, but maybe this isn't a terrible idea.

    Just give every single other character (besides m'Thor and Polaris), like, 4x their current health, match damage, and power damage.

    Would that be acceptable to the "don't ever nerf problem characters, just buff ALL other characters" crowd?

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 161 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @kuntilanak said:
    Make weaker ones stronger is the only way. Any forms of nerf will get backlash. Period.

    Of course! Instead of nerfing m'Thor or Polaris, they should simply buff the other 400 characters!

    I was joking obviously, but maybe this isn't a terrible idea.

    Just give every single other character (besides m'Thor and Polaris), like, 4x their current health, match damage, and power damage.

    Would that be acceptable to the "don't ever nerf problem characters, just buff ALL other characters" crowd?

    The thing with the 'crowd' you mentioned here is that, they are probably heavily invested/ dependent on those characters to carry them through all the nodes, so nerfing will definitely trigger them. However, buffing weaker ones, now with so many characters being tossed out like no tomorrow, is not that realistic. So just let the dev do what they deem practical and move on, i guess... i for one do not believe what we babble here will reach the dev... :p

  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,238 Chairperson of the Boards

    Simple change that will allow Polaris to be what she should be - useful, but not OP.

    Change her purple passive to only put extra Special tiles when the original is matched, not destroyed. Up the damage caused if you want to help. She'll still be useful, but not nearly as crazy as she is now. And I have her ascended to 5-star status, so it's not totally sour grapes because she's everywhere.

  • TriSentinel
    TriSentinel Posts: 143 Tile Toppler

    Here’s an idea, make those supports available at all levels of PVE but only available to levels 9 and 10 in PVP.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,329 Chairperson of the Boards

    Ideas to tone Polaris down:

    1. Have her purple only be able to fire once per turn
    2. Have her purple only trigger on matching friendly SAP not enemy ones
    3. What Sam said above
    4. Remove her ability to add strike tiles to the board
    5. Lower her health at 5* level
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,329 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daniel2121 said:

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

    How can a team like Polaris/BRB be weak on defence when it can spam protect tiles? Not everyone will have Chasm. Polaris/Jane is very much not weak on defence - that team can kill you very easily.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 6,846 Chairperson of the Boards

    @TriSentinel said:
    Here’s an idea, make those supports available at all levels of PVE but only available to levels 9 and 10 in PVP.

    Matchmaking doesn't look at CL, so you are frequently matched with players from different levels.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,722 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 8 July 2025, 12:21

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Daniel2121 said:

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

    How can a team like Polaris/BRB be weak on defence when it can spam protect tiles? Not everyone will have Chasm. Polaris/Jane is very much not weak on defence - that team can kill you very easily.

    Because protect tiles only win the game if coupled with Beta Ray Bill, and he's only good enough to use if he's boosted. The strategy is in general "pump out massive amounts of strike tiles to amplify the damage you're doing when you pump out the strike tiles," with BRB it turns to, "pump out massive amount of protect tiles so you can stunlock basically their whole team very quickly, then you can either pump out those strike tiles or just hit them with a big hammer and/or orbital bombardment a lot." A second turn stun happens a lot with that team.

    BRB is kind of funny, I remember a long time ago, someone said "Stop trying to make Protect tiles happen, they're not going to happen." BRB definitely made them happen.

  • TriSentinel
    TriSentinel Posts: 143 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:

    @TriSentinel said:
    Here’s an idea, make those supports available at all levels of PVE but only available to levels 9 and 10 in PVP.

    Matchmaking doesn't look at CL, so you are frequently matched with players from different levels.

    Right, so like I suggested before, you can only play with or play against teams with supports if you enter level 9 or 10, it would be up to the devs to lock those support players away from the rest of the base.

    Please don’t tell me that’s not possible, this is code, it can be changed ad infinitum.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,329 Chairperson of the Boards

    @GrimSkald said:

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Daniel2121 said:

    @revskip said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    The funny thing is that they removed the two supports that cause cascades so folks just switched to the very OP character that causes cascades and the very OP character that ultra spams SAPs. Hopefully this ups their usage right into a nerf as well.

    I don't think those characters need a nerf. They're strong on offense but very weak on defense and everyone knows it.

    How can a team like Polaris/BRB be weak on defence when it can spam protect tiles? Not everyone will have Chasm. Polaris/Jane is very much not weak on defence - that team can kill you very easily.

    Because protect tiles only win the game if coupled with Beta Ray Bill, and he's only good enough to use if he's boosted. The strategy is in general "pump out massive amounts of strike tiles to amplify the damage you're doing when you pump out the strike tiles," with BRB it turns to, "pump out massive amount of protect tiles so you can stunlock basically their whole team very quickly, then you can either pump out those strike tiles or just hit them with a big hammer and/or orbital bombardment a lot." A second turn stun happens a lot with that team.

    BRB is kind of funny, I remember a long time ago, someone said "Stop trying to make Protect tiles happen, they're not going to happen." BRB definitely made them happen.

    But we are talking about Polaris/BRB so I am now beyond confused and close to giving up.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,659 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 8 July 2025, 13:16

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:
    There are a lot more Polaris/MT than I used to see. Essentially, MT now has the "extra turn" with her powers that Sam/Juggs no longer has.

    That's interesting, and not quite what I expected to see.

    I suppose it makes sense though -- many players are philosophically opposed to using boosted characters, and teams that play the game for you have always been popular.

    That team gets significantly worse without Leapfrog though. It remains a pretty fast clock, but Polaris still only has 150k health and now she can't hide.

    It actually doesn't get worse. The damage that MT/Polaris can do with cascade after cascade more than mitigates the 150k health. Assuming you are trying to beat them with Sam/Juggs. With a different team, that might be fine. But Sam/Juggs is nowhere near is dominant as it was.

    I'm almost always using 650+ boosted characters. My problem before was that my match damage set off Leapfrog, so I often couldn't kill Polaris fast enough to get around their clock. Without Leapfrog I can target Polaris first and waste her pretty much immediately -- she no longer has any defenses at all.

    I wonder if people will start using the Deadpool support to buy her more time? If she is the lowest health character on either team (you can guarantee your team only of course) she will get a 60% damage reduction for 3 turns (a CD that has to survive). That might be long enough to get the engine going when she's used on defense.

    Alternatively when the required is another mutant they can use Krakoa to get her some more blue (faster stun) or more possibly more annoyingly let the other mutant fire a power against you for free when you down her (in the current PvP I'm sure a 3A5 Mags Red/Blue would hit for a ton).

    KGB

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,261 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's always back to Polaris and BRB and Mthor, and Samjuggs.

    Unless they nerf them all and then it'll be Chasm and Omega again, I guess.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,329 Chairperson of the Boards

    Out of the 4 it does seem that Polaris got the most generous “budget” when created but Jane is mighty close behind. What did Abigail Brand budget get spent on?!?!