Invisible Woman (Classic) 4* - Rebalance & New Costume

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  • HowDoIUnlockBatman
    HowDoIUnlockBatman Posts: 44 Just Dropped In
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    Someone's got to be in the bottom 10%. That's kind of how percentages work.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,304 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I wonder if this will increase her usage at all. She wasn't even bad before, is the thing. My guess would be that she's not used because she's older and doesn't combo with any of the "meta" characters at the 4* tier.

    They really should've just turned her into a Polaris partner or counter if they wanted her to be used at the 4* tier.

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 215 Tile Toppler
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    OMG please don't change Northstar! He is actually amazing, probably one of the best 4 stars. Can we maybe just change his look, that might help... right?? He is also one of the most fun and versatile characters, with a great kit!

    I appreciate the attempt at making IW better (maybe as a 5 start she could see some play?)

  • Seph1roth5
    Seph1roth5 Posts: 401 Mover and Shaker
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    I think northstar is in the bottom because no one knows/remembers he was buffed lol. Was pleasantly surprised when his clash came up.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 721 Critical Contributor
    edited 29 March 2024, 05:45
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    @IceIX said:

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    No one is saying this is a nerf (ok, maybe the very first comment. Definitely not a nerf). What we’re saying is, was this really necessary? Sue was already fine in her most recent version prior to this latest update. What we’re saying is, there are a ton of other characters who do need an update. Sue wasn’t/isnt one of them.

    Sue, in her current form before this rebalance, is sitting squarely in the bottom 10% of 4-Stars used in all battles, and even worse when you just look at PVP. She's sitting around such meta-non-luminaries as Hulkling, Northstar, and Namor. Not completely never used, but fairly close.

    Not gonna debating who needs more or less love here (cough! cough! Spider-Woman!). I dont have much data to support anything here beside character with horrible AP cost(s) (cough! cough! Spider-Woman!).

    I don't wanna to be salty but kinda have to be. I know that not everybody can be meta. I know that it's impossible to make everybody viable/usable /whatever. Especially when The Queen and Empress of this game exists. But even if there was no Polaris and mThor here... Yellow received overall nerf up to ~50% to protect tiles strenght while giving us little in return (2 invisibility tiles into one fortified and one more turn of allies invisibility). Green... overall ratio of damage per AP spend is lowered. sure, buffed when 4 bubbles are on board but in current meta how long they can be there?

    Point is: if ya want to rebalance bottom percentyle, it needs scope of changes like Wasp or Hulk has received. These changes will still keep her at bottom 10% in my opinion. Simple number tweaks here and there won't make bottom tier much better. But even bigger changes can't be 100% success. Just look at my beloved Wasp: even if her rework completly has changed her for better, people still thinks she is still worst 5* there is, despite of Widow or whatever existence (sending regards to @Daredevil217 ).

    TLDR: It's not rebalance. It's nerf.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,084 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 28 March 2024, 22:44
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    @IceIX said:

    @HowDoIUnlockBatman said:
    Someone's got to be in the bottom 10%. That's kind of how percentages work.

    If it were the case where (made up numbers) the lower rankings were like:
    Uses / Character
    110k Moon Knight
    100k Mysterio
    90k Invisible Woman
    85k Northstar
    80k Super Skrull

    etc, that'd be fine. But it's more like
    50k Moon Knight
    8k Mysterio
    7k Invisible Woman
    6k Northstar
    5.5k Super Skrull

    There's a cutoff where characters aren't just not picked often. They're aggressively unused, and the only time they get upticks is when they're forced via Requireds, PVP, or smaller upticks when boosted. THOSE are the characters that need a bit of love. And even if you may think otherwise because she has her niche, Ms. Storm is pretty squarely in that area.

    Those are interesting numbers to be sure.

    But for them to be meaningful we'd need to know a bit more information.

    1) How much of the player base has her champed? She's a VERY old character and there aren't many ways to get her covers now (with 150+ 4 stars she will be featured maybe 1 time a year in PvE + PvP combined) for newer players.
    2) More importantly, are those who do have her champed FAR into 5 star land so they no longer really use any of their 4 stars at all other than the meta ones that work with their 5 stars.

    So is it possible the under use is because older players have moved on and newer players get tons of covers for the newest 4s so they use those instead?

    3) One other thing to consider. When she is boosted, is she always in the same boost list and does that list contain far better (more meta) options? If she's always in the same boost list, maybe it's another reason to move around the boosts. Maybe one week all the bottom 10 should be boosted together - LOL

    KGB

  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 4,315 Site Admin
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    @Borstock said:

    @IceIX said:

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    No one is saying this is a nerf (ok, maybe the very first comment. Definitely not a nerf). What we’re saying is, was this really necessary? Sue was already fine in her most recent version prior to this latest update. What we’re saying is, there are a ton of other characters who do need an update. Sue wasn’t/isnt one of them.

    Sue, in her current form before this rebalance, is sitting squarely in the bottom 10% of 4-Stars used in all battles, and even worse when you just look at PVP. She's sitting around such meta-non-luminaries as Hulkling, Northstar, and Namor. Not completely never used, but fairly close.

    Is this rebalance going to change that? At all?

    Quite possible. Rebalances to other characters that weren't far reaching but still functional pushed them up into the "Not meta, but fine" range. 5* Moon Knight, Negasonic, Elsa, and Prowler all saw (and still see) significantly more play now than they did before. Others? Not so much. Kate Bishop, Archangel, Yellowjacket all saw a brief blip in play before they fell pretty much right back to where they were.

  • Glockoma
    Glockoma Posts: 555 Critical Contributor
    edited 28 March 2024, 22:56
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    4th, 5th, 18th rework won’t make most of her skills on bubbles a thing.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,304 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Glockoma said:
    4th, 5th, 18th rework won’t make her reliance on bubbles a thing.

    It's like they refuse to write off the graphic design/tile mechanics work they did for the bubbles back in 2013. Just ditch it! It's a sunk cost! Nobody will miss it!

  • WhiteBomber
    WhiteBomber Posts: 215 Tile Toppler
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    Not that her update changes anything for this, but if you reeeally wanted to use her:

    Hevo+ DLocke + IW you can go invisible after turn 2 with 1 yellow match and then keep your entire team invisible for the rest of the match, eh eh?? Fun? Pretty please don't change Northstar.

  • HowDoIUnlockBatman
    HowDoIUnlockBatman Posts: 44 Just Dropped In
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    Big respect to KGB for actually thinking about why people don't use her. These are the top five reasons I don't use her ;

    1. She isnt champed
    2. She's only level 100 (when a character that isn't champed is the Deadpool burrito node. I see if i can beat it with the level 70 character with the right support and boosts. If i can't, i add 10 levels and try again once their health has regenerated)
    3. I don't need or want any 5* Doom covers or shards. I'm sure he's great but I'm about 50 million in ISO debt
    4. She has no synergy with anyone because her affiliations are worthless. Luke cage and iron fist ✅ technologists✅ mutants ✅ fantastic four ❌ sue and reed ❌
    5. I don't like women who disappear unless they come back with treats.

    I'll champ her next year when she's about to be a feeder for 5* invisible woman so i can get those sweet retro rewards.

  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,042 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 29 March 2024, 02:57
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    @IceIX said:

    @Borstock said:

    @IceIX said:

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    No one is saying this is a nerf (ok, maybe the very first comment. Definitely not a nerf). What we’re saying is, was this really necessary? Sue was already fine in her most recent version prior to this latest update. What we’re saying is, there are a ton of other characters who do need an update. Sue wasn’t/isnt one of them.

    Sue, in her current form before this rebalance, is sitting squarely in the bottom 10% of 4-Stars used in all battles, and even worse when you just look at PVP. She's sitting around such meta-non-luminaries as Hulkling, Northstar, and Namor. Not completely never used, but fairly close.

    Is this rebalance going to change that? At all?

    Quite possible. Rebalances to other characters that weren't far reaching but still functional pushed them up into the "Not meta, but fine" range. 5* Moon Knight, Negasonic, Elsa, and Prowler all saw (and still see) significantly more play now than they did before. Others? Not so much. Kate Bishop, Archangel, Yellowjacket all saw a brief blip in play before they fell pretty much right back to where they were.

    I guess I’ll be thatguy then……

    1) prowler’s rebalance not only was really good, but when ascended, he’s fantastic.
    2) moon knight’s buff was good as well (dare I say “desperately needed”)
    3) Negasonic’s uptick in play undoubtedly has more to do with synergy with FosThor than anything when ascended. Her rebalance was pretty nondescript.
    4) Kate’s rebalance was as nondescript as Negasonic. So why does Nega get more play? Easy answers are….

    A. Kate’s best power still has a very sad limit on it.
    B. Because of that limit, people struggle to find a reason to put her on a team. Especially when……
    C. her other powers are better on other characters.
    D. Negasonic not only goes well FosThor, she goes well with basically any charged tile character.

    5) AA has been rebalanced about as much as IW. But his biggest problem is still that his powers are costly and the main reason to use him can’t be exploited by him or really another team member. Almost all the other characters who send characters airborne, want them to stay airborne and get damage off of it. But AA only wants characters airborne to stun them and do his damage. And because he has no way to send a character airborne…… he only exists to counter 3/4 characters.
    6) As for YJ…… I actually think this is a good character and I don’t know why he’s not getting used a lot. 🤷🏾‍♂️

    TLDR: unless IW’s blue can bubble passive repeaters/CDs that “if one does not exist….” and not have another of the same CD/repeater return (like it did before) OR another character makes a great duo with her, this rebalance won’t change anything.

    But let the record show that I am hopeful I’m wrong and something will click with her and another character when I try her out.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 470 Mover and Shaker
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    Please don't do anything to Yellowjacket. Last time he was boosted mine was only 46x and he was a blast. I actually started faving him recently to take him to 550.

  • Omegased
    Omegased Posts: 588 Critical Contributor
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    I think the yellowjacket one was great. He's fun and doesn't need any work.

    His challenge is he's quite niche, but he does that niche perfectly

  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,948 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I think Yellow Jacket has two things working against him:

    1. He is a victim of a passive AoE meta. He has a good skill set that just doesn't work well against the current meta teams, especially Omega Red and Colossus. When boosted he will have the health pool to help mitigate the damage but under normal circumstances he is going to have a difficult time.

    2. I don't think there are a lot of Yellow Jacket fans. Casual players will play their favorite characters despite not being meta but I don't think Yellow Jacket makes the cut for most players.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,547 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I think her kit does not really lend her to being used in the current game so the rebalance wont help much.
    I don't want to see her on my team because she doesn't really work well with others.
    I don't want to see her on the other team, because she just goes invisible and it takes a while to match out her invisible tile and now that tile is fortified (thanks).

    If she got a kit overhaul I would like it more. Something to speed up her up and stop from being invisible for eternity.

    Something like, doing more match damage while invisible and creating a bubble everyturn. When you have a certain amount of bubbles drain all yellow AP, destroy all bubbled tiles, and do aoe damage based on that or somethng (just spitballing).

    Her problem always was she was slow and she locked out tiles giving you little to no benefit, and this rework probably won't help much.

  • Glockoma
    Glockoma Posts: 555 Critical Contributor
    edited 29 March 2024, 09:23
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    @Tiger_Wong said:
    TLDR: unless IW’s blue can bubble passive repeaters/CDs that “if one does not exist….” and not have another of the same CD/repeater return (like it did before) OR another character makes a great duo with her, this rebalance won’t change anything.

    This would have been so much more interesting, and personally love the flavor of passive bubbles 🫧

    I’ve had the same hope for Green Goblin when he receives a new treatment: passive random pumpkin bombs when you make matches after losing his Glider.

  • Captain_Trips88
    Captain_Trips88 Posts: 266 Mover and Shaker
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    @dianetics said:
    I think her kit does not really lend her to being used in the current game so the rebalance wont help much.
    I don't want to see her on my team because she doesn't really work well with others.
    I don't want to see her on the other team, because she just goes invisible and it takes a while to match out her invisible tile and now that tile is fortified (thanks).

    If she got a kit overhaul I would like it more. Something to speed up her up and stop from being invisible for eternity.

    Something like, doing more match damage while invisible and creating a bubble everyturn. When you have a certain amount of bubbles drain all yellow AP, destroy all bubbled tiles, and do aoe damage based on that or somethng (just spitballing).

    Her problem always was she was slow and she locked out tiles giving you little to no benefit, and this rework probably won't help much.

    Surely she should have a really obnoxious invisible power? It’s kinda her thing!

    Definitely needs an entire rework powers wise to be viable in the current game. She was the very first 4* cover I obtained back in the day, and it is quite a travesty that we don’t have a decent FF representation. Guessing 5* versions of them all when the film eventually drops?