Debate: Let's Un-nerf Bishop!

2

Comments

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,490 Chairperson of the Boards
    Stunned!!!! Other

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @GrimSkald said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

    It's the problem with a passive, unconditional every-turn heal. It's impossible to balance healing like that in this game -- both times they've tried to do it (both with Wolverine!) it's had to be nerfed.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,538 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 17 March 2024, 18:31
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GrimSkald said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

    It's the problem with a passive, unconditional every-turn heal. It's impossible to balance healing like that in this game -- both times they've tried to do it (both with Wolverine!) it's had to be nerfed.

    Honestly, I think they could beef it up pretty high these days. If they keep his offense and health at garbage levels, there are plenty of teams that could one-shot or stun him now. I can imagine a character with insanely low health but who heals to full every turn. Maybe give him a dumb low passive slash every turn. Kinda sounds like Wolverine. Slashy slashy slashy and if you don't kill me, I'm baaaaaack.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @Borstock said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GrimSkald said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

    It's the problem with a passive, unconditional every-turn heal. It's impossible to balance healing like that in this game -- both times they've tried to do it (both with Wolverine!) it's had to be nerfed.

    Honestly, I think they could beef it up pretty high these days. If they keep his offense and health at garbage levels, there are plenty of teams that could one-shot or stun him now. I can imagine a character with insanely low health but who heals to full every turn. Maybe give him a dumb low passive slash every turn. Kinda sounds like Wolverine. Slashy slashy slashy and if you don't kill me, I'm baaaaaack.

    This character might be usable for us, maybe, but they'd really have to give him something that does decent damage. All the defensive characters that people actually use (Colossus, SW, even Beta Bill) have pretty good offensive powers in addition to being annoying on defense.

    The real problem with the guy you describe isn't us. It's lower tier players, where 5* match damage alone absolutely is a great offensive power, and a guy who has great offense and heals passively is the only character you'd ever need.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,538 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Borstock said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GrimSkald said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

    It's the problem with a passive, unconditional every-turn heal. It's impossible to balance healing like that in this game -- both times they've tried to do it (both with Wolverine!) it's had to be nerfed.

    Honestly, I think they could beef it up pretty high these days. If they keep his offense and health at garbage levels, there are plenty of teams that could one-shot or stun him now. I can imagine a character with insanely low health but who heals to full every turn. Maybe give him a dumb low passive slash every turn. Kinda sounds like Wolverine. Slashy slashy slashy and if you don't kill me, I'm baaaaaack.

    This character might be usable for us, maybe, but they'd really have to give him something that does decent damage. All the defensive characters that people actually use (Colossus, SW, even Beta Bill) have pretty good offensive powers in addition to being annoying on defense.

    The real problem with the guy you describe isn't us. It's lower tier players, where 5* match damage alone absolutely is a great offensive power, and a guy who has great offense and heals passively is the only character you'd ever need.

    Oh, right. Other people. I forget to care about them a lot.

  • Omegased
    Omegased Posts: 569 Critical Contributor
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    So bishop was manageable back in the day with the right team.

    The problem with that was, to beat Bishop, you needed to be Bishop.
    Bishop/Kitty/4Gamora would win everytime against bishop (aside from crazy cascades). You need more counters than a mirror match. if the only counter is yourself, the character is very broken.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,612 Chairperson of the Boards
    YES For the Future, make it so!

    I feel that Moon Knight would handle Bishop pretty well - he would punish Bishop for being Bishop.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,124 Chairperson of the Boards
    YES For the Future, make it so!

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I feel that Moon Knight would handle Bishop pretty well - he would punish Bishop for being Bishop.

    I throw in Moon Knight in Sim against Chasm teams. I almost always regret it.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    Stunned!!!! Other

    Moonie is anti-Riri, not anti-Chasm.

  • Timemachinego
    Timemachinego Posts: 428 Mover and Shaker
    edited 18 March 2024, 10:53
    Stunned!!!! Other

    @Borstock said:

    Honestly, I think they could beef it up pretty high these days. If they keep his offense and health at garbage levels, there are plenty of teams that could one-shot or stun him now. I can imagine a character with insanely low health but who heals to full every turn. Maybe give him a dumb low passive slash every turn. Kinda sounds like Wolverine. Slashy slashy slashy and if you don't kill me, I'm baaaaaack.

    Of course him having an insane healing factor is directly against his character, he's "Old Man Logan" because his healing factor was burnt out to some extent. Thematically it'd make more sense to embrace his berserker side and then give him something like massive damage with self-hurt (like 1* juggs) and some kind of time-delay healing or revive, maybe a self-stun after receiving so much damage with a full refresh if it clears before he's downed? I'm not sure if the code is even there but a heal on recovery from stun based on number of turns stunned would be pretty interesting, makes the idea much less exploitable by teaming with Thanos or 4Pun at least. I'd round him out with some sort of bleed repeater power like you said, self-sustaining like 5DP's stun or Magik's red repeaters. Actually a combo of Magik's power and Omega Red's always coming back countdown would be cool, make it so that he will always spawn at least one tile but matching it creates more.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 2,924 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GrimSkald said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    OML has to be up for a rework soon. Even if they returned him to his pre-nerf state, he'd be one of the worst 5*.

    He has zero offense. He was only ever good because he healed, back when 5* match damage was enough to be useful on offense.

    He was pretty low down on the 5* food chain even before he was nerfed. Honestly, the main reason they nerfed him was because he was everywhere, he was still incredibly useful to 2, 3, and 4* players with only a few covers.

    It's the problem with a passive, unconditional every-turn heal. It's impossible to balance healing like that in this game -- both times they've tried to do it (both with Wolverine!) it's had to be nerfed.

    I dunno. It's not 2016 anymore.

    Passive damage is now a major component of the game to counter his heal. Stuns are everywhere in 5 star land thanks to ascension. There is also 'away' and 'airborne' possibilities to deny healing.

    More importantly if you transform him to get his damage, he loses his healing and unless he is tanking, the healing doesn't matter since he will just be sitting there in the back doing very little.

    He was nerfed not because of his 5 star play but rather because he was dominant in lower tier play as new players got 1 yellow cover OMLs and used him to win in 3 star land and below. With newer 3 star character releases even that would be problematic now.

    KGB

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,612 Chairperson of the Boards
    YES For the Future, make it so!

    OML seems fine for an un-nerfing to me. 3* Kang can just send him away, especially after he gets all that Bishop blue!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @DAZ0273 said:
    OML seems fine for an un-nerfing to me. 3* Kang can just send him away, especially after he gets all that Bishop blue!

    If they un-nerfed him, he'd still be one of the worst 5* for us. But he'd immediately go back to being the only character that low-tier rosters ever need.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,612 Chairperson of the Boards
    YES For the Future, make it so!

    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

    This game doesn't have ads. They don't monetize the time you spend. There's no reason they'd want you to play for longer.

    They make their money selling characters, and if you only need one, (especially at lower tiers where players actually spend money) it breaks their business model.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,002 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

    This game doesn't have ads. They don't monetize the time you spend. There's no reason they'd want you to play for longer.

    They make their money selling characters, and if you only need one, (especially at lower tiers where players actually spend money) it breaks their business model.

    They also must make some money on people buying HP to buy health packs because both times there were ways to stop needing health packs they nerfed it. First with getting rid of all healing being permanent so you couldn't just heal up on an easy node, and second by nerfing OML healing so small rosters couldn't just use him as an immortal meat shield.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

    This game doesn't have ads. They don't monetize the time you spend. There's no reason they'd want you to play for longer.

    They make their money selling characters, and if you only need one, (especially at lower tiers where players actually spend money) it breaks their business model.

    They also must make some money on people buying HP to buy health packs because both times there were ways to stop needing health packs they nerfed it. First with getting rid of all healing being permanent so you couldn't just heal up on an easy node, and second by nerfing OML healing so small rosters couldn't just use him as an immortal meat shield.

    There are still a few ways to stop needing health packs. The difference is that they're all sort of convoluted or suboptimal -- if your only goal is to not use packs, you can do it, but everything else is sorta hard/bad.

    The things they nerfed were either completely passive or very very easy ways to not need health packs. If you can play forever without much trouble, or without trading off something else, that becomes a problem because everybody has to do it.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,612 Chairperson of the Boards
    YES For the Future, make it so!

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

    This game doesn't have ads. They don't monetize the time you spend. There's no reason they'd want you to play for longer.

    They make their money selling characters, and if you only need one, (especially at lower tiers where players actually spend money) it breaks their business model.

    Players will outgrown him or are you saying nobody advances up the tiers any longer?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 4,878 Chairperson of the Boards
    NO General Reserves at maximum, cannot absorb any more

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @DAZ0273 said:
    I really don't see how a one or two cover yellow OML ends up hurting the game. Especially if it makes players maybe play some more at lower levels. And it doesn't hurt the 5* game either. The game has evolved a lot over the years to the point where OML is probably a foot note.

    This game doesn't have ads. They don't monetize the time you spend. There's no reason they'd want you to play for longer.

    They make their money selling characters, and if you only need one, (especially at lower tiers where players actually spend money) it breaks their business model.

    Players will outgrown him or are you saying nobody advances up the tiers any longer?

    The justification they gave us around the time of the nerf was that he obsoleted every other character for lower tier rosters. I assume that meant that players weren't outgrowing him -- remember, we acquire covers and move up much, much faster than normal players.