Discussion on retro rewards policy in regard to character ascension

BlackBoltRocks

@entrailbucket said:
Oh, also: I don't understand people saying 4->5* X-23 is bad/worthless. Her healing passive is great, and both actives are worth casting. In a dedicated strike tile team, she can really shine. She's definitely better than a bunch of the dreck 5* floating around, including plenty of recent ones.

I'm not sure how she compares to this new character because I haven't used this new character, but she's FAR from useless. If you're only interested in using the most powerful unboosted characters for everything, or you're generally not interested in trying out boosted characters and finding combos, why ascend anyone at all? This feature really isn't for you.

Yea 4asc5 X-23 is fun. I had a lot of fun using her when she was boosted recently, especially because Samurai Daken was boosted alongside her and she totally showed him up. Weapon Hex has a much better Green, but as you said 4asc5 X-23's healing is great, and if she were boosted this week I would be spamming her over dreck like Miles and Odin, especially with boosted Low-Level AI Ultron.

KGB

@Codex said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@Codex said:

@bluewolf said:

This response, makes me want to ascend everything now.

I don't think they’ll go back and give retro rewards for already ascended toons. I’m guessing it’s a “once this goes live, any ascended toons made feeders will be rewarded retro covers moving forward”. Though it’d be cool if it worked the way I’m thinking you’re reading it.

I’m set to get 9 covers. For my two X-23. If I get another 9 for ascended X-23 on top of it, that would be pretty sick.

You are wrong about the retro rewards.The mpq Karens will not allow it.

The problem with the way you are thinking is that it may be many months (or a year) before they implement the new system. By then there will be no way to keep track of who ascended what and when. By that I mean if you ascend at 370+270 you should get 6 covers (from the 370) but in 6 months time you may have your ascended character at +10 more levels. So if they tried to go back and award retro feeders they wouldn't know whether you ascended a 370+280 (7 total covers) or 370+270 (6 total characters). Plus they'd have no idea whether you waited to ascend until after the feeders were announced and had already gotten 6 feeders so you'd be getting an extra 6.

So I think Daredevil has it right. Once they implement the long term fix it will be for all characters going forward and won't be retroactively applied to anything that's happening between now and then. That's what they have always done (ie if you sold a max champed 370 X23 last week you aren't getting 6 feeders because you sold her. The same applied when feeders first debuted many years ago and many players had sold tons of max champs over the years and they never got anything for that).

So if you ascend everyone now, do it with the knowledge that you are VERY unlikely to be retro rewarded for that in 6 or 12 months time when they roll out a new system that fixes this issue.

KGB

Codex

@KGB said:

@Codex said:

@Daredevil217 said:

@Codex said:

@bluewolf said:

This response, makes me want to ascend everything now.

I don't think they’ll go back and give retro rewards for already ascended toons. I’m guessing it’s a “once this goes live, any ascended toons made feeders will be rewarded retro covers moving forward”. Though it’d be cool if it worked the way I’m thinking you’re reading it.

I’m set to get 9 covers. For my two X-23. If I get another 9 for ascended X-23 on top of it, that would be pretty sick.

You are wrong about the retro rewards.The mpq Karens will not allow it.

The problem with the way you are thinking is that it may be many months (or a year) before they implement the new system. By then there will be no way to keep track of who ascended what and when. By that I mean if you ascend at 370+270 you should get 6 covers (from the 370) but in 6 months time you may have your ascended character at +10 more levels. So if they tried to go back and award retro feeders they wouldn't know whether you ascended a 370+280 (7 total covers) or 370+270 (6 total characters). Plus they'd have no idea whether you waited to ascend until after the feeders were announced and had already gotten 6 feeders so you'd be getting an extra 6.

So I think Daredevil has it right. Once they implement the long term fix it will be for all characters going forward and won't be retroactively applied to anything that's happening between now and then. That's what they have always done (ie if you sold a max champed 370 X23 last week you aren't getting 6 feeders because you sold her. The same applied when feeders first debuted many years ago and many players had sold tons of max champs over the years and they never got anything for that).

So if you ascend everyone now, do it with the knowledge that you are VERY unlikely to be retro rewarded for that in 6 or 12 months time when they roll out a new system that fixes this issue.

KGB

Ummm...did we not witness them giving anyone that ascended nico get 12 covers of hunter regardless of levels when ascended. One can argue they can do that once again as a one time exception at the rollout of the new system.

At the end, this is all speculation. But BCS has been very generous, and I can see them giving retro rewards in some manner. I do agree with roadwarrior if they sell ascended 4 to 5* they would need to differentiate between bought and normal ascension.

KGB

@Codex said:
Ummm...did we not witness them giving anyone that ascended nico get 12 covers of hunter regardless of levels when ascended. One can argue they can do that once again as a one time exception at the rollout of the new system.

But Nico is pretty unique in that the ascension system for her has just rolled out. So it's incredibly unlikely anyone has added significant covers after ascending etc. Even then, they didn't actually try and figure out exactly who did what, they just awarded 12 covers to everyone regardless of whether you ascended a 370+370 or a 370+270.

6 months or a year from now it's going to be even harder to figure out what happened. So I would not expect them to even attempt to go back and do something because you'd end up with some players getting awarded covers twice (ascended X23 after getting feeders), some once (ascended before), plus some getting 12 for a 370+270 while others got the same 12 for a 370+370 etc. While I get you think that placates everyone, it's only going to make players angrier if some get 24 covers while others get 12 if they got feeders twice (once now and then again later).

It would be in their best interest to start going forward from when they implement the fix. Expecting something else to occur is IMHO setting yourself up for an epic disappointment if between now and then what happened with X23 happens with say another 5-6 characters that causes you to miss out on another 6-12 covers 5-6 more times.

KGB

jp1

@KGB said:

@Codex said:
Ummm...did we not witness them giving anyone that ascended nico get 12 covers of hunter regardless of levels when ascended. One can argue they can do that once again as a one time exception at the rollout of the new system.

But Nico is pretty unique in that the ascension system for her has just rolled out. So it's incredibly unlikely anyone has added significant covers after ascending etc. Even then, they didn't actually try and figure out exactly who did what, they just awarded 12 covers to everyone regardless of whether you ascended a 370+370 or a 370+270.

6 months or a year from now it's going to be even harder to figure out what happened. So I would not expect them to even attempt to go back and do something because you'd end up with some players getting awarded covers twice (ascended X23 after getting feeders), some once (ascended before), plus some getting 12 for a 370+270 while others got the same 12 for a 370+370 etc. While I get you think that placates everyone, it's only going to make players angrier if some get 24 covers while others get 12 if they got feeders twice (once now and then again later).

It would be in their best interest to start going forward from when they implement the fix. Expecting something else to occur is IMHO setting yourself up for an epic disappointment if between now and then what happened with X23 happens with say another 5-6 characters that causes you to miss out on another 6-12 covers 5-6 more times.

KGB

If it’s a new 5* it seems it should be pretty trivial to see if a player has 12 covers already or zero. The feeders generally hit before the stores open don’t they? They have all this data, so it may not be trivial to implement something automatic…but it’s available to them.

The people with these issues are going to be in majority your most dedicated players or those who spend the most. It’s hilarious that folks think those people shouldn’t be looked out for. Hope none of those “Karen” declarations come from folks who are in a position to make decisions impacting a business and it’s customers.

“Thanks for your years and years of loyalty and support. We have made it easier than ever for new players to get where you are with minimal effort and expense (comparatively) but we have you this new system as a way to boost your status. Just don’t use it or you will lose out on rewards you had coming your way. “

I’m sorry, but that makes no sense and any argument outside of that just comes off as sour grapes. It’s also clearly a little more bent towards hostility from the crowd that is opposed. Instantly acting like those of us who don’t like the policy are standing with pitchforks at the ready.

mani82

@Daredevil217 said:
. > @revskip said:

Some folks ascended early and reaped the benefits of that by being able to use those characters. I did with Medusa, my dupe was baby champed but I wanted at least one ascended in each power tier so I bit the bullet and eschewed the extra rewards for a more powerful version. And it has been great. I have used her and she has helped me get better rewards.

I also knew that if her feeder got changed I might not get those covers and certainly would miss out on a few Black Bolt covers if I just waited. It's just a couple of covers and I figured the benefit of having a 5* Medusa outweighed any rewards I might get down the road.

Anyone who has ascended a character has gotten a benefit from it already in having additional boosted characters available for both PvE and PvP leading to easier climbs and placements. I'm not going to riot if they go back on their stated policy but I do really feel like the entitlement is over the top for those who want to both have their cake by ascending immediately and eat it as well by receiving covers they were already told were off the menu.

Don't want to ascend characters out of fears that you might miss out on a couple of covers at some indeterminate time? Awesome, don't. Those that do ascend will have it easier than you will but you'll get the extra covers.

See this point is interesting to me and I’d love to know more about it. I actually opened thousands of tokens to max/max dusa before ascending. And guess what happened? My PVP/PVE performance is exactly the same as it was before ascending her. She made no difference. She’s level 485 currently but gives no real competitive advantage. That said I have a very diverse roster and lots of options. Is Medusa one of your first fives? What rewards are you able to reach now that you haven’t been able to obtain before ascending her? I don’t think I’ve ever seen an ascended Medusa in my MMR. Not one. That’s why I’m curious about this bounty of rewards that was reaped. And this is Medusa. I REALLY can’t imagine people were breaking into the end game and netting T20 rewards on the regs thanks to early-ascending X-23. But since I haven’t ascended her myself yet, I really can’t say.

@Daredevil217 said:
. > @revskip said:

Some folks ascended early and reaped the benefits of that by being able to use those characters. I did with Medusa, my dupe was baby champed but I wanted at least one ascended in each power tier so I bit the bullet and eschewed the extra rewards for a more powerful version. And it has been great. I have used her and she has helped me get better rewards.

I also knew that if her feeder got changed I might not get those covers and certainly would miss out on a few Black Bolt covers if I just waited. It's just a couple of covers and I figured the benefit of having a 5* Medusa outweighed any rewards I might get down the road.

Anyone who has ascended a character has gotten a benefit from it already in having additional boosted characters available for both PvE and PvP leading to easier climbs and placements. I'm not going to riot if they go back on their stated policy but I do really feel like the entitlement is over the top for those who want to both have their cake by ascending immediately and eat it as well by receiving covers they were already told were off the menu.

Don't want to ascend characters out of fears that you might miss out on a couple of covers at some indeterminate time? Awesome, don't. Those that do ascend will have it easier than you will but you'll get the extra covers.

See this point is interesting to me and I’d love to know more about it. I actually opened thousands of tokens to max/max dusa before ascending. And guess what happened? My PVP/PVE performance is exactly the same as it was before ascending her. She made no difference. She’s level 485 currently but gives no real competitive advantage. That said I have a very diverse roster and lots of options. Is Medusa one of your first fives? What rewards are you able to reach now that you haven’t been able to obtain before ascending her? I don’t think I’ve ever seen an ascended Medusa in my MMR. Not one. That’s why I’m curious about this bounty of rewards that was reaped. And this is Medusa. I REALLY can’t imagine people were breaking into the end game and netting T20 rewards on the regs thanks to early-ascending X-23. But since I haven’t ascended her myself yet, I really can’t say.

From my perspective of things so far in pvp the boosted ascended fours have been less of a problem except may be red hulk than the regular boosted good regular five star .I am not sure about the defensive value of many fours in pvp ; PVE can be quite different with quick ascended fours like polaris juggs and grocket

ThaRoadWarrior

The opportunity for a suprise "winner" after ascension like Coulson is always there; there are a lot of interesting mechanics that only exist in that tier that might be very different once the character they are attached to jumps up. Or not. I wonder if we will ever see feeders worked into the ascended character reward trees, and what that may or may not do to the incentive for players to use the system?

Bowgentle

It's a bit insane - they built the ascension system themselves.
Then they come out and say they know it's not optimal.
Why not build it another way, then?
Or hold it until the tech is ready - but of course you gotta monetise first and sell the ascended chars and lots of covers right away, THEN maybe improve the tech.
It's kinda sad.

KGB

@Bowgentle said:
It's a bit insane - they built the ascension system themselves.
Then they come out and say they know it's not optimal.
Why not build it another way, then?
Or hold it until the tech is ready - but of course you gotta monetise first and sell the ascended chars and lots of covers right away, THEN maybe improve the tech.
It's kinda sad.

It's not insane at all if you've ever developed software for a living breathing product.

The game is in a constant state of development (new features, bug fixes etc). If they keep waiting to roll out features until some other feature is done then it just spirals endlessly in terms of waiting so that you maybe get 1 'new' feature release a year (ie 1 massive update). That's a very slow roll out time frame wise and we've all seen countless posts here talking about how the game is stale (user interface, game features, etc). So in a effort to get new things to the players more often they are rolling out new features when they are done rather than wait until some other feature this one depends on is done.

Sure, it's not nice that it's not perfect for ascended 4 stars. But they clearly told everyone what would happen (so no one is surprised or should be surprised) and in fact they are working on future updates to alleviate the problem. At worst you need to hold off ascending 4 stars for a few months (maybe a year). This affects how many players, .01% (1% of 1%)? To hold of the entire ascension feature for .01% of players is what would be insane. What they did (rolling out during anniversary as a big new feature) makes perfect sense.

KGB

Bowgentle

Also, monetization.

MegaBee

Y'all called it. Same deal as with Ascended Nico.

Codex

@jp1 said:
“Thanks for your years and years of loyalty and support. We have made it easier than ever for new players to get where you are with minimal effort and expense (comparatively) but we have you this new system as a way to boost your status. Just don’t use it or you will lose out on rewards you had coming your way. “

I’m sorry, but that makes no sense and any argument outside of that just comes off as sour grapes. It’s also clearly a little more bent towards hostility from the crowd that is opposed. Instantly acting like those of us who don’t like the policy are standing with pitchforks at the ready.

I have no problem with "MPQ Karens", they are the reason for many of the rewards than I have received and will receive once again after the whatever the new ascension rewards system will be. If it makes people feel better, I can call them free stuff crusaders.

To understand your argument better, would you consider players eligible for clearance level 10 in PvP who choose to play in clearance level 9 for infinity stones, a flaw in the design of the PvE and PvP system? I ask because these players are not using the system as intended and benefitting from playing lower clearance levels. This is not that dissimilar to this situation cl10 players lose out on a premium reward but gain in better overall rewards, where the premium reward is infinity stone vs new release 5* cover.

If BCS said there would be a one-time exception to their original stated policy and would be awarding 12 hunter covers. I would have definitely ascended Nico. But they did not say that. I made a rational decision based on what was communicated. I was upset for maybe one minute and then got over it. Then I used this behaviour of BCS to conclude they would give retro rewards when they implement the new system. Hence I feel ascending everything now is best.

entrailbucket

They caved, because they were always going to cave. There was never a world where they didn't give out these retro covers, so all of this debate was ultimately pretty worthless.

Akoni

@GrimSkald said:

Wow, what a mistake that was! So basically, here's the rule, ascend a character only if:

• they feed a 5* version of that character
• you are certain you're going to use them in the future, and probably use them often (e.g. Coulson, Nico.)

Otherwise you really should give the whole system a miss. Would it be fun to try a new combination? Too bad, it's far too risky, don't do it. Ignore the whole thing, the possibility of losing out on future rewards (big future rewards,) is too great.

I only ascend characters if:
1. They don't feed other characters, or
2. They feed characters I don't need, or
3. They are maxed out and I have multiple copies (4 or more).

It gets annoying sometimes because I'll see a character available for ascension and wonder why I haven't ascended them. I have to check the rewards to remind myself to not ascend that character. I'm pretty sure I screwed up one of them (at least) by ascending them. I became paranoid about retro rewards early on when I learned about ascension. The bad part is the roster slots it takes up. Luckily I collected a bunch a little while ago. I think I have 9 open slots left. The gut wrenching part is I did a hoard and pull experiment January 2023 where I cashed in tons of standard, elite, and mighty tokens. If I had waited a bit longer I'd probably have several 1* and 2* ascended to 5* already. My stomach turns just thinking about it.

meadowsweet

@Akoni said:
I only ascend characters if:
1. They don't feed other characters, or

Aren't those the characters most likely to receive a retroactive feeder in the near-future?

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:
They caved, because they were always going to cave. There was never a world where they didn't give out these retro covers, so all of this debate was ultimately pretty worthless.

Giving out retros for anything was the original sin, and its embedded years deep now. The caving will continue, until/unless it's decided to tear off the band-aid. But with every cycle, the perceived blowback grows. The best time to make such a correction is always now.

Since we are so far in, why not just make it clear that retros can be counted on. What's the harm? The rich get richer, a little faster. Meh.

meadowsweet

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
They caved, because they were always going to cave. There was never a world where they didn't give out these retro covers, so all of this debate was ultimately pretty worthless.

Giving out retros for anything was the original sin, and its embedded years deep now. The caving will continue, until/unless it's decided to tear off the band-aid. But with every cycle, the perceived blowback grows. The best time to make such a correction is always now.

Since we are so far in, why not just make it clear that retros can be counted on. What's the harm? The rich get richer, a little faster. Meh.

Some folks (not you @JoeHandle ) keep framing this as some kind of con job - crybaby whale players double-dipping and taking advantage of easily bullied devs. But there are plenty of reasonable justifications for retroactive feeder rewards:

1. This potentially affects players at all levels of the game: have you Ascended even a lowly 2★ or 3★ character? Then you're potentially negotiating away your retroactive awards too, should they ever change! This isn't just about 5★ whales. As time goes on, everyone is going to have Ascended characters at some level, and it seems inevitable that some feeders will have to change in the years ahead: most 3★ and many 4★ don't currently have anyone feeding them... (But for the sake of my arguments below, I'll focus on 4★ Feeders since that's where the changes and controversy are, and no one really cares enough about 2★ Champ rewards to argue over them anyway.)
2. Now that they've firmly established a precedent of awarding feeder covers & shards retroactively, they need to remain consistent. Why should a Level 370 Max Champ get all retro rewards but an Ascended Level 450 get none?
3. What if they're adding a feeder to a 4★ that never had one (as about 30% currently don't)? Isn't a 5★ cover and 2,500 shards significantly better than [the old] 650 HP, 6 LL, and 31 CP rewards at those levels (which translates to 650 HP, a handful of random 4★ covers, and maybe one or two 5★ covers)?
4. What if they're swapping out an F-Tier 5★ feeder like Rescue or Wasp for an S-Tier like Okoye or Omega Red? Surely those aren't equivalent...
5. What if they decide to start adding Secondary 5★ feeders to all the 4★ characters (where only about 4 exist today)? You're potentially talking about missing out on 150+ new feeders and hundreds of covers?
6. They want to promote / encourage the use of new characters and generate buzz / interest in the game on a bi-weekly basis. So why be stingy with covers?
7. The 4★ Champ to 5★ feeder "rewards ratio" isn't even that good. You need two Max Champ 4★ and a third Level 280 4★ Champ (249 covers total, or the equivalent of a Level 480 Ascended 4★ using Max-Min) just to get 13 covers for a 5★ feeder to Champ them at Level 450. Meanwhile, other people are hoarding tokens and CP so they can take the new OP meta to Level 550 on Day 1.
8. It's a victimless "problem". Giving retroactive rewards to high-level players doesn't harm newer or casual players. People with zero Ascended 4★ characters shouldn't be competing against players with dozens of them.
9. The devs are keeping their most loyal (and highest-paying) customers happy. The game only continues to exist if players are happy, engaged, and someone's always buying something.

/EndManifesto

DAZ0273

None of the below is "salty" or any of that nonsense, just basic observations

There are plenty of players on this very forum who have stated they haven't spent any money in YEARS on this game and yet have benefitted from being given basically an entire new 5* for free! It cannot be assumed that just because players have ascended 4* that they pay anything at all to the Devs.

Now people can basically also buy a 450 1* they will also be able to 550 those without years of effort. If they shouldn't be competing against players with ascended 4* then nobody told the Devs that!

Giving players who are probably not spending anything anyway basically new release 5* for free seems to be a terrible choice for the game economy. When the Devs also did the roster slot giveaway at Christmas they have basically set up a lot of players for months/years without need to spend anything and if they keep giving away free covers at the rate they are that will include CP!

Obviously good luck to the players, none of the above is my problem so you won't find me banging on any doors, just saying!

KGB

To be honest I am not sure why the Devs didn't award retro feeders based on whether or not you were a paying customer. As in if you had bought something in the last month, you were eligible for retro feeders and if not, you weren't.

There has to be some reason to spend money on the game and for those who are supporting the game there should be extra benefits.

KGB

entrailbucket

@KGB said:
To be honest I am not sure why the Devs didn't award retro feeders based on whether or not you were a paying customer. As in if you had bought something in the last month, you were eligible for retro feeders and if not, you weren't.

There has to be some reason to spend money on the game and for those who are supporting the game there should be extra benefits.

KGB

This would go...very badly...for them if they tried it. They've set a precedent where once you get to a certain level, you can just coast forever at the top, and so the players at the top feel entitled to those spots forever.

I keep coming back to the same problems, but the way to fix this is to make more characters matter. When you only need one or two characters to win everything forever, there's no incentive to spend or even earn rewards once you've got that guy. You can coast for years.

Making more characters matter creates a diverse metagame but also requires a diverse roster to compete -- and getting ALL the characters to a high level is very hard to do for free, and very hard to do forever.