@Bad said: @MegaBee said: Okay. Have fun being on the wrong side of history! Have fun you too in your alt world where people actually go to watch garbage! Sadly the numbers are what they are...
@Bad said:
@MegaBee said: Okay. Have fun being on the wrong side of history!
@MegaBee said:
Okay. Have fun being on the wrong side of history!
Have fun you too in your alt world where people actually go to watch garbage! Sadly the numbers are what they are...
We also live in a world where a determined bunch of, lets try and keep a straight face when we call them "fans", have decided they are going to hate something before it has even reached the public arena. I can't tell you that The Marvels is a good or even passably OK film but I absolutely CAN assure you that a bunch of people had already decided that the very second they learned of its existence they were going to hate it and make sure that the internet knew that. Loudly.
I helped facilitate the army's regulation transition when "don't ask, don't tell" was repealed.
During that time I attended many town halls where I heard military family members say things like:
"I don't want to see that" "I shouldn't be forced to live next to those people" "They don't really belong" And other, more vulgar, things I won't repeat.
I expected better from people who were supposed to represent a portion of the population (including their families) whose job it was to defend freedoms... Of expression, of speech, of pursuit of happiness, etc... Even if their lifestyles were vastly different.
I remember thinking at the time that similar things were said during other times of broadening inclusivity.
The worst part was knowing that some of the soldiers (that I had served with in combat) were gay and hearing these things at a time when they should have been celebrating. But it was nothing new to them.
That was over a decade ago.
I think the issue with current media, including the MCU, is a lack of quality that accompanies the move for inclusivity.
Obviously not all "inclusive" entertainment lacks quality, but when something is created with an obvious focus on inclusivity and that product lacks quality, inclusivity can get lumped in as the cause.
I don't think any reasonable person can deny that Disney has pushed for diversity and inclusion. Bravo to them for that. Seriously.
But the product quality has declined alongside that push. That's not because of inclusivity, it is despite inclusivity, and it's happening because the writing is bad. They check the block for a list of things unrelated to good story telling and churn out one project after the next.
Then the people that don't like it blame inclusivity.
And the people making the product skip over the bad writing to blame intolerance for why people don't like it. They have an excuse so they don't feel the need to produce better material.
My opinion is that they're doing more harm than good and that's a shame because marginalized communities deserve better.
I'm sure someone will dislike something I said here, and that's ok. I just wish the people producing "inclusive" content represented those communities better so that those communities didn't have to take the blame for poor writing.
Note: I'm fully aware that some people will oppose inclusivity/diversity no matter what. That doesn't mean Disney isn't failing to produce quality and putting poorly written scripts on screen while ignoring perfectly great stories for those same characters that exists in the comics.
@rainkingucd said: @DAZ0273 said: The Welsh? Or Gnomes? Man I hate Gnomes, brr, creepy. The Welsh just keep taking hits don't they?
@rainkingucd said:
@DAZ0273 said: The Welsh? Or Gnomes? Man I hate Gnomes, brr, creepy.
The Welsh just keep taking hits don't they?
I checked my ancestry.com results. I'm only 9% Welsh. I think that means 9% of what I say can be ignored here.
@Blackstone said: @rainkingucd said: @DAZ0273 said: The Welsh? Or Gnomes? Man I hate Gnomes, brr, creepy. The Welsh just keep taking hits don't they? I checked my ancestry.com results. I'm only 9% Welsh. I think that means 9% of what I say can be ignored here.
@Blackstone said:
Depends on what part of Wales. Cardiff - eh, not so bad but Swansea? Good god, lock up your loved ones and sheep!
@Blackstone
It's rare to get a post like this in the midst of all the jokes and memes.
I suspect a big part of what is annoying people about Disney is their retconning of stories to suddenly fit their inclusion model. Things like the remake of Snow White or changing heroes from non-gay to gay or changing their ethnicity etc or even trying to cast old villains like Maleficent as a tragic figure etc.
Disney / Marvel needs to produce new original stories and new heroes rather than reconning existing IP with known characters that people already love (or hate if a villain).
In my opinion (my kids love it too) they hit a home run with their 2009 Princess and the Frog movie because the classic fairy tale did not have known characters in it.
KGB
@KGB said:@Blackstone It's rare to get a post like this in the midst of all the jokes and memes. I suspect a big part of what is annoying people about Disney is their retconning of stories to suddenly fit their inclusion model. Things like the remake of Snow White or changing heroes from non-gay to gay or changing their ethnicity etc or even trying to cast old villains like Maleficent as a tragic figure etc. Disney / Marvel needs to produce new original stories and new heroes rather than reconning existing IP with known characters that people already love (or hate if a villain). In my opinion (my kids love it too) they hit a home run with their 2009 Princess and the Frog movie because the classic fairy tale did not have known characters in it. KGB
@KGB said:@Blackstone
Exactly this. There are soooooo many existing diverse comic book character that it makes no sense to change existing characters. When you do something like in black widow and make taskmaster a woman, it makes the people who are already fans of the comic book taskmaster upset that their beloved character was not represented as he is known by his fans. When DC turns black canary into a black woman instead of white woman, it makes fans of the comics ask questions like "Why didn't they just have that character role filled by Vixen instead?" Instead of changing an existing character, it would have been the perfect opportunity to introduce a character that is already a black woman and hasn't yet been represented on screen.
Fans are still waiting for Static shock, Blue Marvel, Vixen, Brother Voodoo, etc. to make it into a movie and just changing existing characters that are already well known makes it less likely that they will do the work to introduce lesser known characters.
I completely agree.
They've shown they're capable.
I watched Princess and the Frog with my granddaughter last week and we enjoyed it.
Many times it feels like retconning is used as a crutch to prop up diversity, which is insulting because diverse characters can be compelling/entertaining/successful without the need for that crutch.
As for Snow White... That whole thing makes no sense.
Another example: I was excited about the "Willow" series revisiting a movie I enjoyed as a kid. I was also excited to see a diverse cast. Then I watched it. It was just bad. Poorly written from beginning to end. People that didn't like it blame diversity, which wasn't fair to diversity. The other side accused people that didn't like of being bigoted, which wasn't fair to those that just recognized the poor writing and plot holes.
In the end I think people need to be able to listen to this that disagree with them, without dismissing them because "they're on the other side" before things can truly get better.
Maybe Wiccan can alter reality and get us there.
As chief thread derailer around here, this should probably get split off into its own thing.
There's a legitimate conversation to be had about tokenism in Marvel comics, although I think the movies have largely avoided that issue. The problem is that a lot of folks aren't particularly interested in that conversation -- they just want to complain about diversity and representation in general.
Superheroes genre, concretely Marvel comics, has been there since 80 years. It has its loyal audience. Respect that! It has plenty of LGTB characters. And it doesn't happen anything at all. Their stories have plots. Villains. Hand to hand battles. Soft or hard violence. Don't change that! They are universal, for all people. Exactly in the moment you try to emphatize your view over what's the genre, you are causing division in a product which it was universal. And Disney should stay away of that, being historically the first children animated movies productor. Right now I have to collect info in order to decide if I bring my sons to watch their new release! It's crazy! And ultimately they get what they deserve for that.
Absolutely right.
Wish I had such confidence in our direction of travel.
Wrong side of the present though - at least we have that.
I think this is a really important conversation and I'm a bit loathe to split and move to off-topic where it will die. But I also don't want the character thread to be lost either. While I think about how best to handle that...
It's a very difficult balance to achieve. The example of Kingpin being played by Michael Clarke Duncan (not Disney) was the same argument however many years ago. "Kingpin isn't black!" they cried. But Kingpin's race was not the focus of the story nor was it relevant to any aspect of it. It didn't (from memory) explore his roots and rewrite his whole character to embrace his cultural identity as a black man. For those without a deep knowledge of Kingpin (myself included), he was Kingpin - the colour of his skin didn't matter. If they'd included a back story, and made it authentic, that didn't match the comics, I'd never have known and not would I have cared.
I don't have the encyclopaedic knowledge of the Marvel universe that others on here have but to be so invested in that version of the story that the skin colour or sexuality of an individual makes any difference is incomprehensible to me.
I think @Blackstone nailed it for me - if a movie is awful, changes to well established characters diminish the enjoyment further for those who are invested and look for reasons. But if Goose were a grey cat, would people be blaming the quality of the movie on that (I've not seen it yet to comment)?
@DrClever said: @MegaBee said: Okay. Have fun being on the wrong side of history! Wish I had such confidence in our direction of travel. Wrong side of the present though - at least we have that.
@DrClever said:
The kids are doing all right, despite how much the olds try to drag everyone back to the "good" old days.
@DAZ0273 said: @Blackstone said: @rainkingucd said: @DAZ0273 said: The Welsh? Or Gnomes? Man I hate Gnomes, brr, creepy. The Welsh just keep taking hits don't they? I checked my ancestry.com results. I'm only 9% Welsh. I think that means 9% of what I say can be ignored here. Depends on what part of Wales. Cardiff - eh, not so bad but Swansea? Good god, lock up your loved ones and sheep!
@DAZ0273 said:
Ha! I lived in Swansea for 14 years or so. If you've ever seen "Twin Town " it summarises it beautifully. Think we can all agree it's better than Newport though....
You can take Spiderman into the spiderverse. Miles and his parents are black. It matters to someone? In the least. Doc ock is a mad girl. What happens? Nothing. A fine villain. Is another dimension. Peter Parker is fat. Someone with a weigh issue complaining like crazy? No. It's funny, and something just natural. Kingping killed someone with a Killer smash. That's what he does. It's a criminal. It's what he does in the comics. Bravo for Sony! They fully respected a product without taking care about dumb ideologies and the politically correct. With a loving stethical comic look.
On the other hand, Disney takes a product. It softens it in order to sell it to all audiences. Changes everything in order to fill their quota. It's totally deaf to the character's fans. And they value more their new doctrine (fully reflected in comunist politics groups) rather than the story and the product. And they get surprised when it's a total fiasco! It's so funny...
@Bad said: You can take Spiderman into the spiderverse. Miles and his parents are black. It matters to someone? In the least. Doc ock is a mad girl. What happens? Nothing. A fine villain. Is another dimension. Peter Parker is fat. Someone with a weigh issue complaining like crazy? No. It's funny, and something just natural. Kingping killed someone with a Killer smash. That's what he does. It's a criminal. It's what he does in the comics. Bravo for Sony! They fully respected a product without taking care about dumb ideologies and the politically correct. With a loving stethical comic look. On the other hand, Disney takes a product. It softens it in order to sell it to all audiences. Changes everything in order to fill their quota. It's totally deaf to the character's fans. And they value more their new doctrine (fully reflected in comunist politics groups) rather than the story and the product. And they get surprised when it's a total fiasco! It's so funny...
@Bad said: You can take Spiderman into the spiderverse. Miles and his parents are black. It matters to someone? In the least. Doc ock is a mad girl. What happens? Nothing. A fine villain. Is another dimension. Peter Parker is fat. Someone with a weigh issue complaining like crazy? No. It's funny, and something just natural. Kingping killed someone with a Killer smash. That's what he does. It's a criminal. It's what he does in the comics. Bravo for Sony! They fully respected a product without taking care about dumb ideologies and the politically correct. With a loving stethical comic look.
But aren't you proving the point here a little? You liked one film and not the hypothetical other ones which you thought were bad.
You assume "changes to a quota" are responsible. In the Spiderverse movie, if Kingpin were referenced as being gay, would that have made the film worse? Would it make any difference at all to you? For others, it might break a stereotype or empower someone to be themselves at school or elsewhere.
There's a whole point here about representation on screen that is a positive for marginalised communities. It makes films accessible for a larger audience. And a larger audience makes more money. So, whilst the die-hard Marvel fans will be terribly upset that the characters created 60 years ago to represent society then doesn't represent society now, the world moves on and new people need to buy into the product.
If the re-emergence of the far- right across the world, who want to very much restrict the freedom of marginalised groups, doesn't worry you at least as much as whether one man kisses another or someone has changed skin colour from their first appearance in a comic in the 1960s, in a superhero film, then your priorities are pretty far away from mine in terms of things to get upset about.
I grew up viewing Clint Barton as something out a father figure. Some of the backstory was very similar to my childhood. I've remained a fan my whole life.
When I first heard of Kate Bishop, I got angry. There was a worry they were going to erase everything I connected with as though it meant nothing. How could they do that to me?
But that was an emotional reaction. It made sense at the time, but I knew I couldn't let a knee jerk emotion dictate my feelings and how I conducted myself. Even if they did retcon everything about Hawkeye, I'd still have everything that connected me to the character. But it may have been the end of Clint's story.
They didn't erase Clint, in fact the Clint/Kate Hawkeye comics were phenomenal story telling.
Something I would never have experienced if I let that initial emotion overtake my common sense.
The MCU version doesn't live up to the comics counter part... But a guy with a bow and arrow who works hard is never going to be as flashy/marketable as super powered god like characters.
Micheal Clark Duncan and Sam Jackson proved an actor can embody a character regardless of skin color, but that was only possible with a good script for that character.
If a change is made, and presented as the primary focus for the character, ... (Feel bad for me because I'm marginalized shouldn't happen... Because it still makes them look less than) they've shot the character in the foot so to speak.
I'm not sure if any of that makes sense, but I need to go climb on top of something slippery and dangerous right now and don't have time to proofread.
@Scofie said: But aren't you proving the point here a little? You liked one film and not the hypothetical other ones which you thought were bad. You assume "changes to a quota" are responsible. In the Spiderverse movie, if Kingpin were referenced as being gay, would that have made the film worse? Would it make any difference at all to you? For others, it might break a stereotype or empower someone to be themselves at school or elsewhere. There's a whole point here about representation on screen that is a positive for marginalised communities. It makes films accessible for a larger audience. And a larger audience makes more money. So, whilst the die-hard Marvel fans will be terribly upset that the characters created 60 years ago to represent society then doesn't represent society now, the world moves on and new people need to buy into the product. If the re-emergence of the far- right across the world, who want to very much restrict the freedom of marginalised groups, doesn't worry you at least as much as whether one man kisses another or someone has changed skin colour from their first appearance in a comic in the 1960s, in a superhero film, then your priorities are pretty far away from mine in terms of things to get upset about.
@Scofie said:
Also, in that movie they joke about an extremely dumb way to hit on girls, which Miles uses to distract kingping and it's extremely funny. If feminist realized that! I don't want to think what they'd say! (However in all countries feminists only react to a really mass media case when they can get easy credit and the provokers low grade of retalation). Kingping gay? Is a bit difficult that when all his motivation is about his dead wife. If you want to try to fit me in a stereotype like those few posters, you must know that I love deadpool, all his jokes, and when he is a twisted hetero and also when he is an unexpected gay. (What a coincidence, isn't it? Deadpool 3 is the movie that was delayed until summer and it will be the first adult Marvel movie. If Marvel doesn't find another excuse until that time). If you want to get upset by those things you say, great for you. I want pure entertainment and nothing more. And I want that all those policies away from the movies I'd like. (Or what happens, superheroes movies are a wonderful mass media showcase to miss out them, isn't it?)
YRAAFP.
Dear @Bad
Boys and girls will hit on each other, often in dumb ways, as they learn to navigate social interactions. It's nothing to make a big deal about.
Feminists aren't really concerned with such things. (Unless it's done in a way that is disrespectful)
Please don't conflate the extreme individuals claiming feminism with all feminists. It's not fair to anyone, and displays your ignorance on the matter. I don't mean that to sound disrespectful, though I understand if you find it to be.
Please research feminism and don't allow a small group to confirm your bias because you're not willing to educate yourself.
As for Kingpin: being gay (closeted) would actually make a lot of sense for his character. Claiming he can't be because he had a wife is, again, ignorant. And it ignores the multiversal element that was presented.
No one is trying to fit you into a stereotype. You just think that because it's the excuse your brain creates so you can dismiss ideas you disagree with and justify your own notions.
Get mad at what I'm telling you, scream into a bag that people just don't understand how smart and deep your mind is, then calm the tiny kitty down and take a few moments to consider that you could be wrong. Contemplate that then come back and try to put a little dignity and respect on your comments.
If you're not respecting other ideas, people won't respect yours.
Lastly... I'm sure you think you made a point about DP3 being delayed... But you didn't. It's a fairly common thing right now. And Deadpool bring gay/bi/undefined isn't unexpected (at least it shouldn't be).
Thank you.