An ascension question

MultipleMan98

I have a 2 star 144 mags and a 116 mags. Should I ascend him now or get him to max level as well?

ArchusMonk

Depends if you want the rewards from 117-144 or would rather have an ascended 3 star faster.

bigjojo04

The way I’ve been handling the low level characters with ascension is keeping the lower one at that level to get as many of the rewards as I can at that level until I need that roster spot for something else.

Scofie

I'm either ascending at lvl99 for the 3* cover or lvl144. If my dupe is higher than 99 I'll wait.

tylenol4

If you have the HP and ISO the best rewards are always if you merge max-max, so 2x144 in this case. There may be times you'll need the roster slot or want to use an ascended character right away, in which case you might forgo the max rewards route.

meadowsweet

Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

JoeHandle

@meadowsweet said:
Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

Not with ascensions constantly offered for sale!

If your sole concern is speed to 550, every time one of your ascended character(s) is offered you should be buying in. Each one is a "skip ahead" button.

rainkingucd

@meadowsweet said:
Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

you and others have done a great job outlining the process & the maths of Ascension and of Max Max vs Max Min. Can you link to that analysis please as when Ascension was announced, none of it made any sense to me, but now that I've ascended a few characters at each tier, I think it might make more sense this time around.

entrailbucket

@tylenol4 said:
If you have the HP and ISO the best rewards are always if you merge max-max, so 2x144 in this case. There may be times you'll need the roster slot or want to use an ascended character right away, in which case you might forgo the max rewards route.

I think this argues for at least a hybrid strategy.

If you're waiting for max/max on every character you're at risk of missing out on some very strong, very usable options that will make a difference to your gameplay.

It might make sense to hold off and collect rewards for the characters that aren't very good, but for others -- the question again becomes, why are you farming those rewards? Nobody should be collecting rewards for their own sake, rewards are a means to improving your roster.

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:
Nobody should be collecting rewards for their own sake, rewards are a means to improving your roster.

Hmmm ... just a crazy spitball toss here, but maybe ... mayyyyyyyybe ... players focus on collecting rewards as a means of improving their roster.

Sounds crazy I know, but I think the possibility bears further scrutiny.

meadowsweet

@rainkingucd said:

@meadowsweet said:
Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

you and others have done a great job outlining the process & the maths of Ascension and of Max Max vs Max Min. Can you link to that analysis please as when Ascension was announced, none of it made any sense to me, but now that I've ascended a few characters at each tier, I think it might make more sense this time around.

TL;DR version: the devs either screwed up their math (and refuse to admit that) or made a conscious decision to punish / slow you down for going the Max-Max route.

To simplify, I'll just zoom in on one small phase of Ascension. Let's say you already have two copies of the same 2★ character that have been Ascended to 3★: a level 266 and a level 166. And you want to Bind those two characters to a 4★ and get them to level 370.

Max-Min Method:
1) Bind the two immediately (zero cover cost.) You now have a 4★ at level 270.
2) Spend 300 covers leveling the 4★ up from 270 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 300 covers

Max-Max Method:
1) Spend 200 covers leveling up the lower 3★ from level 166 to level 266 at a cost of 2 covers per level.
2) Bind the two level 266 characters together. Because they're both Max Champs, you will receive additional "credit" that goes towards leveling up your new 4★ character. Here's the problem: you just pumped 200 extra covers into them in Step 1. And we know that it costs 300 covers to go from level 270 to 370. So you would think that you should get 2/3 credit (200/300), correct? That would put you at level 336, with 2/3 covers towards level 337. But that's not what the devs did. They divide 100 LEVELS (not 200 COVERS) by the 3 per level ratio and only credit you with 33+1/3 levels, putting your 4★ at level 303 and 1/3 cover.
3) Spend 200 covers leveling the 4★ up from 303+1/3 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 400 covers (33.3% higher than Max-Min)

It costs the same to get 4★ & 5★ characters to get to level 550 either way, but for 1★-3★ it will cost between 21% - 29% more covers to get to level 550 because you're Binding & Ascending 4 - 16 different initial unique copies of the character.

meadowsweet

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Nobody should be collecting rewards for their own sake, rewards are a means to improving your roster.

Hmmm ... just a crazy spitball toss here, but maybe ... mayyyyyyyybe ... players focus on collecting rewards as a means of improving their roster.

Sounds crazy I know, but I think the possibility bears further scrutiny.

Not to put words in their mouth, but it's possible what they mean is "If I'm already sitting on millions of Iso that I can't spend because I've already leveled everyone up, then I shouldn't care about chasing Iso rewards just for the sake of having even more millions that I also can't use."

So different players might have different priorities: maybe you really need HP for roster slots, maybe you really want more covers and shards, maybe you want to get Ascensions over with as quickly as possible to free up roster spots, maybe you haven't been able to champ any 5★ characters so you're trying to get a bunch of 1★ or 2★ characters into the 400-500 level range ASAP?

Sometimes champ rewards are more useful towards your priorities, sometimes they're not.

entrailbucket

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Nobody should be collecting rewards for their own sake, rewards are a means to improving your roster.

Hmmm ... just a crazy spitball toss here, but maybe ... mayyyyyyyybe ... players focus on collecting rewards as a means of improving their roster.

Sounds crazy I know, but I think the possibility bears further scrutiny.

That's...what I was saying, though?

Take MODOK. MODOK, ascended to 5*, is crazy good. His active powers are cheap and do completely insane damage. He's a 4* who feeds Arcade. Ascended MODOK is better than Arcade all day every day.

If your focus is on improving your roster, and not just collecting rewards for rewards' sake, it is an absolute no brainer to ascend MODOK as quickly as possible. You miss out on some Arcade rewards, but MODOK is way, way better than Arcade. Waiting to get the Arcade rewards doesn't improve your roster.

entrailbucket

@meadowsweet said:

@JoeHandle said:

@entrailbucket said:
Nobody should be collecting rewards for their own sake, rewards are a means to improving your roster.

Hmmm ... just a crazy spitball toss here, but maybe ... mayyyyyyyybe ... players focus on collecting rewards as a means of improving their roster.

Sounds crazy I know, but I think the possibility bears further scrutiny.

Not to put words in their mouth, but it's possible what they mean is "If I'm already sitting on millions of Iso that I can't spend because I've already leveled everyone up, then I shouldn't care about chasing Iso rewards just for the sake of having even more millions that I also can't use."

So different players might have different priorities: maybe you really need HP for roster slots, maybe you really want more covers and shards, maybe you want to get Ascensions over with as quickly as possible to free up roster spots, maybe you haven't been able to champ any 5★ characters so you're trying to get a bunch of 1★ or 2★ characters into the 400-500 level range ASAP?

Sometimes champ rewards are more useful towards your priorities, sometimes they're not.

For me, farming is a way to turn useless covers into useful covers. Before Ascension, the vast majority of non-5* covers were completely useless in-game. Beyond PvP or PvE essentials I'd only use 5* characters. So farming 2, 3, and 4* was a means of converting characters I'd never use into characters that had value.

Things are different now. Lower tier characters can be promoted, and a number of them are already usable for me. So my focus is no longer on trading these guys in for 5* -- some of them are much better than existing 5*!

What are your priorities? Why do you farm? Is it just because someone did the math and said it was optimal? Is it really optimal to convert Polaris covers to Havok anymore? Or MODOK to Arcade? Or Juggernaut to Magneto?

JoeHandle

@entrailbucket said:

"... just collecting rewards for rewards' sake ..."

A meaningless phrase that has been flogged a lot recently
It's employed to be dismissive when it's convenient to be dismissive.
(He wrote, dismissively.)

Always love to see MODOK getting love.

JoeHandle

@meadowsweet said:

TL;DR version: the devs either screwed up their math (and refuse to admit that) or made a conscious decision to punish / slow you down for going the Max-Max route.

There's no punishment; nor should any "screwing up" be assumed.

Whether it was accomplished intentionally / consciously, or the opposite, good game design results in presenting players with complex, interesting choices, the solutions to which are non-obvious and even counterintuitive. When there is one min-max'd solution that applies across the board, there is no choice, only a lot of boring, mindless repetition.

However it came to pass, in its current form, ascension is the most interesting thing to happen to MPQ in 10yrs ... so far.

rainkingucd

@meadowsweet said:

@rainkingucd said:

@meadowsweet said:
Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

you and others have done a great job outlining the process & the maths of Ascension and of Max Max vs Max Min. Can you link to that analysis please as when Ascension was announced, none of it made any sense to me, but now that I've ascended a few characters at each tier, I think it might make more sense this time around.

TL;DR version: the devs either screwed up their math (and refuse to admit that) or made a conscious decision to punish / slow you down for going the Max-Max route.

To simplify, I'll just zoom in on one small phase of Ascension. Let's say you already have two copies of the same 2★ character that have been Ascended to 3★: a level 266 and a level 166. And you want to Bind those two characters to a 4★ and get them to level 370.

Max-Min Method:
1) Bind the two immediately (zero cover cost.) You now have a 4★ at level 270.
2) Spend 300 covers leveling the 4★ up from 270 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 300 covers

Max-Max Method:
1) Spend 200 covers leveling up the lower 3★ from level 166 to level 266 at a cost of 2 covers per level.
2) Bind the two level 266 characters together. Because they're both Max Champs, you will receive additional "credit" that goes towards leveling up your new 4★ character. Here's the problem: you just pumped 200 extra covers into them in Step 1. And we know that it costs 300 covers to go from level 270 to 370. So you would think that you should get 2/3 credit (200/300), correct? That would put you at level 336, with 2/3 covers towards level 337. But that's not what the devs did. They divide 100 LEVELS (not 200 COVERS) by the 3 per level ratio and only credit you with 33+1/3 levels, putting your 4★ at level 303 and 1/3 cover.
3) Spend 200 covers leveling the 4★ up from 303+1/3 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 400 covers (33.3% higher than Max-Min)

It costs the same to get 4★ & 5★ characters to get to level 550 either way, but for 1★-3★ it will cost between 21% - 29% more covers to get to level 550 because you're Binding & Ascending 4 - 16 different initial unique copies of the character.

This is very helpful and makes much more sense to me now that I've done some ascending.

A niche example: I'm in that kind of place where I have 2 max champed natural 3* that cannot be ascended yet (i.e. Quicksilver). I rostered a third character. When Quicksilver goes live on 06 Nov, I have 2 options:

1) Ascend directly with the two max champs, and now I have a 303 level 3Quicksilver4, with a dupe 3* sitting in the background until that 3Quicksilver4 hits 370. Then roster another Quicksilver and do the process again (Max Max) until i have a 3Quicksilver5

2) Finish out that triplicate Quicksilver, level him to 166, and then bind with one of the max champs, giving me a 270 level 3Quicksilver4. That leaves the second max champ waiting for the 3Quicksilver4 to hit 370, then do it again until I have a 3Quicksilver5

In scenario 1, I start with a higher level 3Quicksilver4, but will ultimately take more covers to hit the 3Quicksilver5. In scenario 2, I get to 3Quicksilver5 faster, but at the expense of the Quicksilver champ rewards in both the 3* and 4* areas.

Does this all track?

Scofie

@rainkingucd said:

@meadowsweet said:

@rainkingucd said:

@meadowsweet said:
Keep in mind that if you're going the "Max-Max" route every step of the way on a 2★, it will also take 28.5% longer / more covers to get them to level 550 compared to "Max-Min" (1,804 covers compared to 1,404 covers.) So it comes down to whether you prefer receiving low-level champ rewards or reaching the highest level faster.

you and others have done a great job outlining the process & the maths of Ascension and of Max Max vs Max Min. Can you link to that analysis please as when Ascension was announced, none of it made any sense to me, but now that I've ascended a few characters at each tier, I think it might make more sense this time around.

TL;DR version: the devs either screwed up their math (and refuse to admit that) or made a conscious decision to punish / slow you down for going the Max-Max route.

To simplify, I'll just zoom in on one small phase of Ascension. Let's say you already have two copies of the same 2★ character that have been Ascended to 3★: a level 266 and a level 166. And you want to Bind those two characters to a 4★ and get them to level 370.

Max-Min Method:
1) Bind the two immediately (zero cover cost.) You now have a 4★ at level 270.
2) Spend 300 covers leveling the 4★ up from 270 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 300 covers

Max-Max Method:
1) Spend 200 covers leveling up the lower 3★ from level 166 to level 266 at a cost of 2 covers per level.
2) Bind the two level 266 characters together. Because they're both Max Champs, you will receive additional "credit" that goes towards leveling up your new 4★ character. Here's the problem: you just pumped 200 extra covers into them in Step 1. And we know that it costs 300 covers to go from level 270 to 370. So you would think that you should get 2/3 credit (200/300), correct? That would put you at level 336, with 2/3 covers towards level 337. But that's not what the devs did. They divide 100 LEVELS (not 200 COVERS) by the 3 per level ratio and only credit you with 33+1/3 levels, putting your 4★ at level 303 and 1/3 cover.
3) Spend 200 covers leveling the 4★ up from 303+1/3 to 370 at a cost of 3 covers per level.
Total Cost: 400 covers (33.3% higher than Max-Min)

It costs the same to get 4★ & 5★ characters to get to level 550 either way, but for 1★-3★ it will cost between 21% - 29% more covers to get to level 550 because you're Binding & Ascending 4 - 16 different initial unique copies of the character.

This is very helpful and makes much more sense to me now that I've done some ascending.

A niche example: I'm in that kind of place where I have 2 max champed natural 3* that cannot be ascended yet (i.e. Quicksilver). I rostered a third character. When Quicksilver goes live on 06 Nov, I have 2 options:

1) Ascend directly with the two max champs, and now I have a 303 level 3Quicksilver4, with a dupe 3* sitting in the background until that 3Quicksilver4 hits 370. Then roster another Quicksilver and do the process again (Max Max) until i have a 3Quicksilver5

2) Finish out that triplicate Quicksilver, level him to 166, and then bind with one of the max champs, giving me a 270 level 3Quicksilver4. That leaves the second max champ waiting for the 3Quicksilver4 to hit 370, then do it again until I have a 3Quicksilver5

In scenario 1, I start with a higher level 3Quicksilver4, but will ultimately take more covers to hit the 3Quicksilver5. In scenario 2, I get to 3Quicksilver5 faster, but at the expense of the Quicksilver champ rewards in both the 3* and 4* areas.

Does this all track?

It does, but in Scenario 2 the "lost" 3 star rewards are partly offset by the better 4 star rewards in the short term. Longer term (when 3Quicksilver5 is 550) is when the real reduction in rewards per cover is seen as you're building a dupe at 3 star rather than each cover being 3 star or half a 4 star champ reward.

My thought being, if I genuinely care about 1000 Iso per cover when my 3*s are 550, I have bigger problems in the game than the decision I made 5 years before to ascend Quicksilver early. 🙂

JoeHandle

@rainkingucd said:

A niche example: I'm in that kind of place where I have 2 max champed natural 3* that cannot be ascended yet (i.e. Quicksilver). I rostered a third character. When Quicksilver goes live on 06 Nov, I have 2 options:

1) Ascend directly with the two max champs, and now I have a 303 level 3Quicksilver4, with a dupe 3* sitting in the background until that 3Quicksilver4 hits 370. Then roster another Quicksilver and do the process again (Max Max) until i have a 3Quicksilver5

2) Finish out that triplicate Quicksilver, level him to 166, and then bind with one of the max champs, giving me a 270 level 3Quicksilver4. That leaves the second max champ waiting for the 3Quicksilver4 to hit 370, then do it again until I have a 3Quicksilver5

In scenario 1, I start with a higher level 3Quicksilver4, but will ultimately take more covers to hit the 3Quicksilver5. In scenario 2, I get to 3Quicksilver5 faster, but at the expense of the Quicksilver champ rewards in both the 3* and 4* areas.

Does this all track?

When it doubt, map it out!

Several permutations to consider from your starting point. Since you didn't say what level QS#3 is right now, I set it to 166 ... because no matter what it will have to be taken there to progress, so that's the same in all approaches. Also did not conisder what was invested / earned from making QS#1 and #2, cause that's already done and the same across the board.

Your scenario #1 is on top, your #2 is 4th down. The one at bottom is IMO the dumbest

(This image probably isn't readable, right-click to open in a new window or dowload if interested in a clearer view)

Markot

TL;DR version: the devs either screwed up their math (and refuse to admit that) or made a conscious decision to punish / slow you down for going the Max-Max route.

I would say ideal (from the point of math, not rewards for poeple etc.) would be to need 2x more covers on each next level. It is
2*: 2 covers for one level of 3* ascended, 4 covers on 4* ascended and 8 covers at 5* ascended
3*: 2 covers for one level of 4* ascended, 4 covers on 5* ascended
4*: 2 covers for one level of 5* ascended

For 1* I would say the same as for 2*, i.e. 1 cover per level on 2* ascended up to 8 cover at 5* ascended.

Then it would be the same if you use 4 covers of 2* to two levels on 3* ascended and those 2 levels give you 1 level on 4* or you directly use 4 covers on 4* ascended and gain 1 level.

This system would make
1*: 3->4 (133%) needed per level 4* and 4->8 (200%) needed on 5*
2*: 3->4 (133%) needed per level 4* and 4->8 (200%) needed on 5*
3*: 3->2 (67%) needed per level 4*
4*: 4->2 (50%) needed per level 4*
And other combinations original level vs. ascended level would be the same as are now.

For me, such system would give much more sense. 4* are still quite rare and there is 145 of them, so to get 2 for one level on 5* seems appropriate. 1* and 2* are common and there is 8 and 14 of them, so to gain 8 for one level on 5* ascended shouldn't be such a big problem.

I used offers for 1Storm5 and 1Spider-Man5. Storm is now 459 (9 levels in 27 days), Spider-Man 461 (11 levels in 25 days). I'm currently not using 4* covers to level ascended versions, but none of them would be even close to get so many levels in such a short time. Slowing 1* to half and speeding 4* twice as suggested above would make them more even.

rainkingucd

@JoeHandle said:

@rainkingucd said:

A niche example: I'm in that kind of place where I have 2 max champed natural 3* that cannot be ascended yet (i.e. Quicksilver). I rostered a third character. When Quicksilver goes live on 06 Nov, I have 2 options:

1) Ascend directly with the two max champs, and now I have a 303 level 3Quicksilver4, with a dupe 3* sitting in the background until that 3Quicksilver4 hits 370. Then roster another Quicksilver and do the process again (Max Max) until i have a 3Quicksilver5

2) Finish out that triplicate Quicksilver, level him to 166, and then bind with one of the max champs, giving me a 270 level 3Quicksilver4. That leaves the second max champ waiting for the 3Quicksilver4 to hit 370, then do it again until I have a 3Quicksilver5

In scenario 1, I start with a higher level 3Quicksilver4, but will ultimately take more covers to hit the 3Quicksilver5. In scenario 2, I get to 3Quicksilver5 faster, but at the expense of the Quicksilver champ rewards in both the 3* and 4* areas.

Does this all track?

When it doubt, map it out!

Several permutations to consider from your starting point. Since you didn't say what level QS#3 is right now, I set it to 166 ... because no matter what it will have to be taken there to progress, so that's the same in all approaches. Also did not conisder what was invested / earned from making QS#1 and #2, cause that's already done and the same across the board.

Your scenario #1 is on top, your #2 is 4th down. The one at bottom is IMO the dumbest

(This image probably isn't readable, right-click to open in a new window or dowload if interested in a clearer view)

Interesting and very insightful.

Too me a while to get the difference between 2nd down and 3rd down, but I finally figured it out

1 and 4 are tradeoffs on speed vs rewards (i.e. my scenarios: Max-Max at all levels vs Max-Min at all levels).

• Row 1 requires 4 max champ 3*, and then 2 max champ 4*
• Row 4 requires 2 max champ 3*, and 1 max champ 4*

2 and 3 are the hybrid options (Maxing 3*, but not maxing 4* ). These tell me that if you have to choose between 3 max champ 3* or 4 max champ 3*, always choose 4 max champ 3* to get there as there are more rewards and the cover loss is nearly identical between these 2 scenarios

• Row 2 requires 4 max champ 3*, and 1 max champ 4*
• Row 3 requires 3 max champ 3*, and 1 max champ 4*

5 sucks, ignore it, understood

This is pretty cool. I was never planning on doubling maxing my 4* as I prefer to play the characters vs maxed 4* rewards. Row 2 really helps illustrate what my likely path will be. I've already ascended a bunch of double maxed 3* in Batch 1, and have a bunch more for Batch 2. Maybe any new 3* will get the "Row 4" treatment for speed and my current double maxed 3* will get the "Row 2" treatment as I'll be ascending them when they go live anyway.