Ascending Characters - A Champ Reward Analysis

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  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Codex @WhiteBomber
    Thanks guys, it was a lot of work and simple comments to say thanks is very appreciated. This is a scientific process, so if someone else can come up with a better plan, I would be happy to explore it.

  • Zarqa
    Zarqa Posts: 313 Mover and Shaker

    In that case, let me add my thanks as well! Found it super helpful so far and appreciate the effort you put into it

  • skittledaddy
    skittledaddy Posts: 984 Critical Contributor

    Agreed. I immediately screen-shot that simplified post and stored it away for future reference.
    Many thanks, bbigler!

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 728 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    @bbigler said:
    @Punter1 Spending 200 more covers in the 4* tier is good, but not as good as spending them in the 5* tier. You could spend those 200 covers starting another ascended 1-star, which would be at level 239.

    This is something I considered: what’s the best reward track for endlessly recycling and ascending 1s to 5s? The max+max method wastes a lot of covers in the lower tiers.

    Perhaps a simple calculation could be by dividing the total rewards by the total number of covers used in both methods. This would result in fractions of rewards, but the higher fraction wins.

    There’s also the value of time - meaning a 550 in 9 months is worth more than a 550 in 12 months. But you also don’t want to ruin your MMR with a group of 1-Star 550s. I think common practice will become hoarding standards when your 1-stars reach your MMR, then maxing out and selling them.

    Doing you simple calc, at 1/2 levels conversions, spending the 200 more for 4-star champ rewards is better at a CP/LT level. Converted LT to 25CP to get some slightly bigger numbers for comparison.

    Skipping 2nd 4-star - min cover usage, quickest process, 1,508 1-star covers = 2,104 CP (equivalent) = 1.39CP/1-star cover

    Maxing 2nd 4-star - more cover usage, slower process etc, 1,708 covers = 2,604 CP = 1.52CP/1-star cover

    2-star is 1.50CP/cover compared to 1.62CP/cover for 2nd Max 4

    I think so far anecdotal evidence is leaning on majority of ascended characters being more of a play novelty (perhaps burden!) than new meta. Certainly, would be surprised to see 1* Spidey or Iron man suddenly appearing in the meta. So, I am in no rush to have a 550 1* mess with my MMR (my high is 498 Kitty). Therefore, I am all about maxing rewards for my farm and don't care about speeding up process.

    My choice will be to spend the extra 200 1 & 2-star covers to max a 2nd 4-star on the way up. Not as worth it at 3* due to the slower drip of those covers.

    Quick edit - forgot to account for using those 200 covers to start a 2nd round. With 200 1/2-star you can make a low level 200 3*, picking up 8CP and 1LT - so not a big difference in rewards. NB playing out further: 8x 550s at 12k covers or 7x 550s with those same 12k covers and double maxing 4s - ratio calcs still hold.

  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards

    Appreciate the efforts. I don’t typically Min/Max but it’s very nice to have all the math done for me.

  • SuperCarrot
    SuperCarrot Posts: 181 Tile Toppler

    Well done sir. This might need to be pinned somewhere.

  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor

    Great work, and I certainly appreciate the analysis. Everyone wants an easy answer, but before you run with the answer, you really need to understand the question. Which of the following is most important to you:

    1. If I have a set number of covers, how do I get the most rewards for those covers?
    2. If I want to get an ascended character to 550, how can I do that with the least covers?
    3. How do I maximize my average rewards per cover over the long run?

    I believe @bbigler 's analysis answers questions 1 and 2. But the important question for me is question 3, since I'm on day 2160 and don't see my play tapering off any time soon. For question 3, I believe the optimal strategy is the max-max strategy. I did iterate out the rewards for ascending a 3* to a 5* 550 level using the different strategies and to summarize comparing max-max vs the hybrid approach, I got the following:

    Max champing everything at each level on the way to 550 (Method 2 in the original post):
    1152 covers needed to get to 550
    635,000 Iso-8
    30,600 Hero Points
    1273 Command Points
    8 Heroic Token
    8 Mighty Token
    0 Classic Legends
    65 Latest Legends
    4 4* Primary Covers
    3200 4* Primary Shards
    2400 4* Secondary Shards
    CP + LT = 115.92 Pulls
    Average per cover = 115.92 / 1152 = 0.101 pulls per cover

    Method 4 (Hybrid 2):
    954 covers needed to get to 550
    476,000 Iso-8
    25,950 Hero Points
    986 Command Points
    6 Heroic Token
    68 Mighty Token
    0 Classic Legends
    52 Latest Legends
    3 4* Primary Covers
    2400 4* Primary Shards
    1800 4* Secondary Shards
    CP + LT = 91.44 Pulls
    Average per cover = 91.44 / 954 = 0.096 pulls per cover

    Interestingly, the average HP per cover is actually more using the hybrid approach (25950 / 954 = 27.2 vs 30600 / 1152 = 26.7), but for every other resource the max-max approach results in a higher average per cover.

    Let me know if you think my math is off at all--I do make mistakes :)

  • trenchdigger
    trenchdigger Posts: 136 Tile Toppler

    Also need to consider how back end loaded the rewards are, so would be worth understanding the breakeven point. 954 3* covers could take 9 - 10 years (and counting due to dilution as the number in the tier continues to expand). Are you really going to make it all the way to 550, and if you are going to be behind for the first 7 of those 9 years, does that change your approach?

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 728 Critical Contributor

    What your missing is that the 200 extra covers needed can be used on the next iteration. So your Hybrid approach should also factor in rewards for 2 more almost Max 3s (step 1 in Hybrid 2)

    I'm getting slightly different overall counts than you, easier to ignore feeders at all, just assume a non-feeder. The 2 extra max 3s, gets you another 13Lt (ish)

    End result not changed a bunch. I was being more selective in my suggestion which is to skip the overspend at 3-star level (for 1, 2 & 3) but max rewards at 4-star and overspend covers happily there

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,297 Chairperson of the Boards

    Thank you @bbigler ! I read this a couple of days ago. As a bit of a data fan, I found the whole exercise really interesting, but the simplified version is much appreciated!

  • helix72
    helix72 Posts: 995 Critical Contributor

    This is great @bbigler ! I think you've narrowed it down to a simple choice:

    1) Get to 550 fastest with the most rewards: use hybrid 2
    2) Get the most rewards on the way to 550 even if it takes longer: use max-max

    And if you want to know how many more rewards and how much longer, you'll have to read his whole post. Hey, everything can't be easy now, can it?

  • scottee
    scottee Posts: 1,610 Chairperson of the Boards

    If not taking into account rewards, is the fastest to 550 Max+Min at each ascension?

    That's if you only care about power levels.

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    edited October 2023

    @scottee said:
    If not taking into account rewards, is the fastest to 550 Max+Min at each ascension?

    That's if you only care about power levels.

    Yes.
    Though, when ascending to the first higher tier than the tier of covers that are used, it's the same number of covers whether you min + max or max + max. Because at original tier, you're still using 1 cover for 1 champ level. Might as well double max champ first, to collect more total rewards.
    Also, collecting the first LT at 167 and 271 is just a minor speed bump when racing all the way to 550...

  • Markot
    Markot Posts: 86 Match Maker

    I'm not sure this was discused here already. I had two maxed copies of Medusa (and Thing) and ascended them to level 475 5* version. And now there is a decision what to do with next covers - build and champ another 4* copy or use those covers to level 5* ascended version at 1:4 ratio?

    I tried to count rewards of next 113 covers, i.e. enough to max champ next 4* version.
    Building 4* copy

    • Rewards: 1 5* cover, 2500 5* shards, 4 LTs, 219CP, 3350HP, 112500 iso
    • Investment: 365821+12500=378321 iso to champ, roster slot
    • Result: still just 475 5* version, 370 4* version

    Using tokens toward ascended 5* version

    • Rewards: 7 LTs, 175CP, 1750HP, 56000 iso
    • Investment: nothing more
    • Result: level 503 5* version

    For now, I will probably choose building and maxing a copy. Rewards are better for me (only iso seems worse but I have 20M iso hoarded). The only exception would be a character I would like to use regularly - then extra levels on ascended version could help to better placement and better rewards from it. But for now I'm not sure if any ascended 4* would be this case (to be better then real 5* I'm now using). I use Gorr quite regularly now, but he is far from this problems - my first Gorr isn't maxed yet so he can not be ascended.

  • trenchdigger
    trenchdigger Posts: 136 Tile Toppler

    I have a similar conundrum with 3*. Once you have ascended to 4* tier, do you start building a new 3*, or max the 4*.

    If I max max ascend my 3*, I then need 200 more covers to max the ascended 4*. Or use those 200 covers to max another 3* and get the next one up to 240.

    4* rewards give 2 less LT but enough CP for an extra 6 pulls, so net 4 extra pulls. 3* rewards will also give 5 primary 4* covers and 2.5 secondary 4* covers, but 2500 less HP, and will cost a whole lot more iso.

    I think its quite a fine balance, as you could literally end up with no 3*, if you continue to pile all 3* covers into ascended 4*, so do you at least champ a new 3* before building the ascended 4*?

    I'm still on the fence and have approx. 10 days to decide how to start allocating my spare covers.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,167 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    Personally, my plan is to at least get a baby champed 3* before adding covers to my ascended 3->4*. Partly because I need 3* for DDQ nodes (eventually I'll run out of 3* if I ascend them all) and partly because there may come another node/mode in the future where you need a 3* (for example if they run Combined Arms PvP where you must use a 2/3/4* character).

    KGB

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    @Markot
    You make a very excellent point! We’ve been focusing a lot on the lower tiers but haven’t discussed the 4-stars much because it was assumed Max+Max to 550 was ideal. BUT because the cover ratio of 4:1 hurts 4-stars the most, you can actually get more rewards in the 4-star champ rewards. BTW, your calculations were correct:

    If you have an ascended 4-star at 475, then you could spend your next 113 covers in 2 ways:
    1. Level Up to 503, which gives 7 LT + 175 CP = 14 pulls
    2. Max Champ a Dupe at 370:
    a. Feeder gives 6 x 5-star covers + 4 LT + 219 CP. The LT + CP equals 12.7 pulls
    b. Non Feeder gives 10 LT + 250 CP = 20 pulls

    So, which is better for rewards? Spending the covers in the 4-Star tier actually. Both Feeder & Non Feeder rewards are better (you could count 5-Star covers as being worth 7 pulls).

    But what’s the best long term plan? Recycling in the 4-Star tier or ascending? I think both. Having an ascended 4-star is certainly good and useful in fights, so if ISO isn’t a concern, then I would do this: Max 2 x 4-stars, ascend to 475, then repeat with maxing 2 more 4-stars, ascending to 475 and repeating again. That would give the most rewards, but there is value in taking that 4-star up to 550 if they’re good. So your choice.

  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,495 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    @trenchdigger said:
    I have a similar conundrum with 3*. Once you have ascended to 4* tier, do you start building a new 3*, or max the 4*.

    If I max max ascend my 3*, I then need 200 more covers to max the ascended 4*. Or use those 200 covers to max another 3* and get the next one up to 240.

    4* rewards give 2 less LT but enough CP for an extra 6 pulls, so net 4 extra pulls. 3* rewards will also give 5 primary 4* covers and 2.5 secondary 4* covers, but 2500 less HP, and will cost a whole lot more iso.

    I think its quite a fine balance, as you could literally end up with no 3*, if you continue to pile all 3* covers into ascended 4*, so do you at least champ a new 3* before building the ascended 4*?

    I'm still on the fence and have approx. 10 days to decide how to start allocating my spare covers.

    The second ascensions can be real conundrums and you need 2 different approaches based on rarity.

    Gameplay perspective.
    At a fundamental level, will you actually use this character on a regular basis? Ascended 4* are absolutely 5* equivalent and its viable to immediately ascend or wait til max champs. That's just reflects if you need the char now or can afford to wait. But there's a big quality difference in the base 3* tier and below. Yes there are outliers of exceptional 3* (thanos, strange) but as a rule a naturally built level 450 5* has a better powerset than a base 3* ascended to 450. And once you get to 2/1, none of them would be really viable against a peer level 5*.

    Economic perspective.
    Once you decide on if you actually need to use that char, then its self-evident on if you need to Ascend level by level or focus on maxchamping low-tier versions.

    From my perspective, I can see valid reasons to immediate promote 4* based on if you need access to a power set or play style. I can also see people waiting to harvest the full 4* reward tree because they have enough 5* tools to maintain their PVP and PVE placements.

    I can see a few 3* getting immediate ascension but I can also see Vision never getting to 550.

    1/2 will just get farmed through their various reward trees. I don't think they will ever be necessary for placement progression etc. i.e. I'm not worried about getting locked out because I don't have a 5* ascended IM or whaterver.

    For your specific question.

    What we (the forum) called 3* nodes are actually character nodes (that happened to be 3). So there's no issue with the required pve nodes or featured pvp events. Those are tied to the character name and presumably the 5/4/3 variants work.

    but for sure its an open question for deadpool dailes.
    Ex:
    the 4* hard node requires PX. Does a 475 ascended px count? Aside from that example, I would keep ascending your chara(if that is your goal) and not worry about keeping a 13 cover farm version (until its appropriate)

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited October 2023

    @trenchdigger @KGB
    Even if you ascend all 3-stars, you’ll still have 3-stars because of new 3-Star releases, plus you’ll create 3-Star dupes when your ascended one’s hit 370, PLUS you’ll have ascended 1-stars and 2-stars in that tier as well. So don’t worry about that.

    As for rewards, the 3:1 ratio hurts but here’s the difference:

    Starting with an ascended 3-star at 303
    1. Spend 200 covers going up to 370 equals 210 CP + 6 LT = 14 pulls
    2. Spend 200 covers creating 2 Dupes at 266 & 240 equals 51 CP + 8 LT = 10 pulls

    So, I would go with adding levels to the ascended version first before creating dupes for another ascended one.

    EDIT: of course, you could argue that if you just add another 26 covers to the above comparison then you could ascend again and get another 303 character plus 63 CP + 6 LT = 8 pulls. Doing it the other way, you would start another dupe and reach 179, which gives 1 LT.

    So, that makes your method look better being 15 pulls vs 16 pulls.

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