@Bad said: Are new 4* players bypassing the 4* tier? Some proofs, please?
I am basing that on what other players have been saying. I can't prove it myself. Hence the "if".
@DAZ0273 said: I am basing that on what other players have been saying. I can't prove it myself. Hence the "if".
@DAZ0273 said:
Exactly! And I can't prove it neither. However the developer has answered with % numbers which seems pretty logical to me and prove exactly the opposite. Now you can choose to not trust the developer for x reason and to trust what others players say. Everyone is totally free.
@Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: I am basing that on what other players have been saying. I can't prove it myself. Hence the "if". Exactly! And I can't prove it neither. However the developer has answered with % numbers which seems pretty logical to me and prove exactly the opposite. Now you can choose to not trust the developer for x reason and to trust what others players say. Everyone is totally free.
@Bad said:
I think we are talking different things here? I am not doubting the Devs numbers. I am just reacting to the idea that these players are skipping the 4* tier apart from a couple of characters and attempting to go to the 5* tier/use undercover 5* who are boosted. I don't know if this is true or not but the two concepts don't have to be at odds with each other.
@DAZ0273 said: I think we are talking different things here? I am not doubting the Devs numbers. I am just reacting to the idea that these players are skipping the 4* tier apart from a couple of characters and attempting to go to the 5* tier/use undercover 5* who are boosted. I don't know if this is true or not but the two concepts don't have to be at odds with each other.
That's a really specific 4* player type which isn't reflected on icelX numbers. However, if people having a champed 5* are 3% of the total number of players, by definition the 97% of players are either 4* or 3* players, and I think that answers pretty well if the 4* tier is relevant or not.
The character switching dynamic makes me optimistic for the Void
@Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: I think we are talking different things here? I am not doubting the Devs numbers. I am just reacting to the idea that these players are skipping the 4* tier apart from a couple of characters and attempting to go to the 5* tier/use undercover 5* who are boosted. I don't know if this is true or not but the two concepts don't have to be at odds with each other. That's a really specific 4* player type which isn't reflected on icelX numbers. However, if people having a champed 5* are 3% of the total number of players, by definition the 97% of players are either 4* or 3* players, and I think that answers pretty well if the 4* tier is relevant or not.
Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). It is not about having CHAMPED 5*, it is about having under covered 5* who are when boosted BETTER than having champed 4*. This is what players are saying is happening - their queues are still 4MMR but warped by the boost lists of 5 who have massive health and match damage even if not all that well covered. You might as well chase 5* covers as much as roster and bother with 4* that are not meta. I would be very opposed to losing the 5* boost which I think is one of the best things to come about in years with this game but this is the knock on effect of what is happening as explained by players facing that sort of MMR.
@DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). It is not about having CHAMPED 5*, it is about having under covered 5* who are when boosted BETTER than having champed 4*. This is what players are saying is happening - their queues are still 4MMR but warped by the boost lists of 5 who have massive health and match damage even if not all that well covered. You might as well chase 5* covers as much as roster and bother with 4* that are not meta. I would be very opposed to losing the 5* boost which I think is one of the best things to come about in years with this game but this is the knock on effect of what is happening as explained by players facing that sort of MMR.
If I were to start over from scratch today, I'd be ignoring the almost entirely useless and bloated 4* tier and working with whatever 5* covers I can get. I'm pretty sure Bigler? advocated for such in one of their ng+ runs and it makes absolute sense. In the long run having a healthy/full 4* roster is of course useful but for getting right to the meat of higher reward tiers, grabbing yourself ANY modern 5* is probably the best way to go.
@DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant).
Again you are missing the point (no offence meant).
My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying.
@Timemachinego said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). It is not about having CHAMPED 5*, it is about having under covered 5* who are when boosted BETTER than having champed 4*. This is what players are saying is happening - their queues are still 4MMR but warped by the boost lists of 5 who have massive health and match damage even if not all that well covered. You might as well chase 5* covers as much as roster and bother with 4* that are not meta. I would be very opposed to losing the 5* boost which I think is one of the best things to come about in years with this game but this is the knock on effect of what is happening as explained by players facing that sort of MMR. If I were to start over from scratch today, I'd be ignoring the almost entirely useless and bloated 4* tier and working with whatever 5* covers I can get. I'm pretty sure Bigler? advocated for such in one of their ng+ runs and it makes absolute sense. In the long run having a healthy/full 4* roster is of course useful but for getting right to the meat of higher reward tiers, grabbing yourself ANY modern 5* is probably the best way to go.
@Timemachinego said:
Any is probably a bit of a stretch. I don't think players who enter 5* play with Gwenom will be happy with her zero match damage. But yes, I generally agree.
@Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying.
So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really?
@DAZ0273 said: @Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying. So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really?
If you assume that new players do reading on the forum or Reddit, get advice from veterans, and build their rosters in the most optimal way, then yes, the 4* tier is irrelevant and unnecessary.
The number of lower-tier players who actually do those things is likely a rounding error in the overall playerbase.
@entrailbucket said: @DAZ0273 said: @Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying. So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really? If you assume that new players do reading on the forum or Reddit, get advice from veterans, and build their rosters in the most optimal way, then yes, the 4* tier is irrelevant and unnecessary. The number of lower-tier players who actually do those things is likely a rounding error in the overall playerbase.
@entrailbucket said:
I am willing to believe that of course because the general player base is much bigger than we are here but every player who does get their hands on a 5* with one cover immediately sees the benefit. So even without guidance from anywhere, they have a plan to form moving forward. The rookies on my Alliance of which there are a considerable amount are nearly always built the same - 2* champs, 3* and low cover 5*, next to no 4* and often none at all. As they progress and stay in the game perhaps the plan changes, perhaps it doesn't but I know that when we play Alliance/Boss Events and do manage to snag the 5* that is the one that is on their roster next time I check.
Yes but those players will enter pvp with their newly champed, I dunno, Clea, and will get murdered by Polaris grocket. Then they'll either quit or target Polaris. So those extra 4s just dilute everything.
@Bowgentle said: @entrailbucket said: @DAZ0273 said: @Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying. So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really? If you assume that new players do reading on the forum or Reddit, get advice from veterans, and build their rosters in the most optimal way, then yes, the 4* tier is irrelevant and unnecessary. The number of lower-tier players who actually do those things is likely a rounding error in the overall playerbase. Yes but those players will enter pvp with their newly champed, I dunno, Clea, and will get murdered by Polaris grocket. Then they'll either quit or target Polaris. So those extra 4s just dilute everything.
@Bowgentle said:
And adding extra 4* who don't really do much doesn't help them getting who they want either. The pool is large enough already - I would argue that adding 4* actually caters to the 5* players because we are the ones who can champ them easily and gain the reward benefits and have the capacity to roster essentially useless characters. So the new 4* benefit us and the new 5* are just something we chase anyway. So the Devs cater to the 3% whether that is the plan or not!
The best thing for new players was the new and very good 3* which ironically the 5* players here complained about having to spend HP until we got a roster slot discount!
And diluting everything means you're less likely to get the character you want/need, you're more likely to pull a character you don't already have, and you need to buy more slots to roster everyone for essentials.
This is how they keep the lights on. You might quit in that situation, but it seems clear that an awful lot of players don't, and in fact, will spend money in response to those factors.
@entrailbucket said: @Bowgentle said: @entrailbucket said: @DAZ0273 said: @Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying. So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really? If you assume that new players do reading on the forum or Reddit, get advice from veterans, and build their rosters in the most optimal way, then yes, the 4* tier is irrelevant and unnecessary. The number of lower-tier players who actually do those things is likely a rounding error in the overall playerbase. Yes but those players will enter pvp with their newly champed, I dunno, Clea, and will get murdered by Polaris grocket. Then they'll either quit or target Polaris. So those extra 4s just dilute everything. And diluting everything means you're less likely to get the character you want/need, you're more likely to pull a character you don't already have, and you need to buy more slots to roster everyone for essentials. This is how they keep the lights on. You might quit in that situation, but it seems clear that an awful lot of players don't, and in fact, will spend money in response to those factors.
But that doesn't mean they are building 4* rosters.
The gacha game just offers characters. The time a newbie enters if he is active enough he will get naturally an amount of whichever 4* character would be on his timeline. It's easy to talk about 4* tier irrelevance when you have everything. But for a new player starting 3 months ago, that silver samurai who nobody seemed to like could be of great help because of earning many covers through events. That's the relevance of releasing 4* characters: it's the door to playing the game, and some of them will spend more than you, who actually doesn't need any character at all.
@DAZ0273 said: @entrailbucket said: @Bowgentle said: @entrailbucket said: @DAZ0273 said: @Bad said: @DAZ0273 said: Again you are missing the point (no offence meant). My point (which you quoted me in first place), it's always the same: 4* tier is of the upmost relevance in this game. Your point, 4* players using boosted 5* unchampeds, it isn't answered yet. Of course should be bigger than 3%, but on my logic thinking, it won't be so big (I'd say 20% to the most), to the point to release a 4.5 tier like you were saying. So what is the point of adding more and more 4? Who is the 4 tier of upmost importance to? 5* players to earn feeder rewards and champ rewards? What benefit is making the 4* tier any larger to anybody really? If you assume that new players do reading on the forum or Reddit, get advice from veterans, and build their rosters in the most optimal way, then yes, the 4* tier is irrelevant and unnecessary. The number of lower-tier players who actually do those things is likely a rounding error in the overall playerbase. Yes but those players will enter pvp with their newly champed, I dunno, Clea, and will get murdered by Polaris grocket. Then they'll either quit or target Polaris. So those extra 4s just dilute everything. And diluting everything means you're less likely to get the character you want/need, you're more likely to pull a character you don't already have, and you need to buy more slots to roster everyone for essentials. This is how they keep the lights on. You might quit in that situation, but it seems clear that an awful lot of players don't, and in fact, will spend money in response to those factors. But that doesn't mean they are building 4* rosters.
Well, right. They might be, or they might not -- we don't actually know because we only see a tiny percentage of players. But character releases don't have anything to do with that. They have to keep releasing characters because that's how the game stays alive financially.
I suspect those newer players are rostering 3* and 5* characters when they get new hero slots. Growing the 3* tier was a smart move because those covers are easily obtainable for newer player and most of those new 3* outclass the older ones in terms of health, damage and covering powers that came into play after the 3* tier closed 5+ years ago.
My alliance is like Daz's in that we have lots of newer players in it. They also tend to roster 3* and 5* that we get as alliance rewards and often have only 1-2 4* on their roster.
My guess is that they will fill in the 4* tier after the 5* tier because it's not really required for anything (other than PvE essential) given how strong 5* characters are these days. A big part of the blame for the irrelevance of the 4* tier has been the constant creep in health and match damage in the 5* tier. If new 5* still had health/match damage of originals like pre-buff Surfer/Jean/OML then you'd have less reason to bypass the 4* tier. Or if newer 4s had also had the same match/health increases then maybe we'd get new meta's in the 4 tier because Polaris and company would have been left behind.
KGB
@KGB said: I suspect those newer players are rostering 3* and 5* characters when they get new hero slots. Growing the 3* tier was a smart move because those covers are easily obtainable for newer player and most of those new 3* outclass the older ones in terms of health, damage and covering powers that came into play after the 3* tier closed 5+ years ago. My alliance is like Daz's in that we have lots of newer players in it. They also tend to roster 3* and 5* that we get as alliance rewards and often have only 1-2 4* on their roster. My guess is that they will fill in the 4* tier after the 5* tier because it's not really required for anything (other than PvE essential) given how strong 5* characters are these days. A big part of the blame for the irrelevance of the 4* tier has been the constant creep in health and match damage in the 5* tier. If new 5* still had health/match damage of originals like pre-buff Surfer/Jean/OML then you'd have less reason to bypass the 4* tier. Or if newer 4s had also had the same match/health increases then maybe we'd get new meta's in the 4 tier because Polaris and company would have been left behind. KGB
@KGB said: I suspect those newer players are rostering 3* and 5* characters when they get new hero slots. Growing the 3* tier was a smart move because those covers are easily obtainable for newer player and most of those new 3* outclass the older ones in terms of health, damage and covering powers that came into play after the 3* tier closed 5+ years ago.
That's a good point. We get mega power creep for 5s and 3s, but nothing of the sort for 4s. I hadn't even noticed until you said it. I have no clue what it means though.