**** Mister Negative (Martin Li) ****

entrailbucket

Sometimes they don't end up being that bad. Like I understand High Evolutionary's powerset pretty well, even though it's a million words. Kang looked pretty complicated but he mostly makes sense in use.

The problem with these guys is that it's impossible to figure out if they're worthwhile until you play with them, and generally you need to play with them a lot before you get it.

KGB

@DAZ0273 said:
"Works with Polaris & BRB" is a bit of a sad bar to aspire to these days and I really don't think she needs help to stun people. So yeah he sounds made up for that team but it is hardly a team that was struggling. I think this guy potentially makes SHIELD Sim worst for some 4* players who don't have a BRB. I guess we shall see.

He's a 4*, so pretty much the only categories for a 4* release to fall into are
1) Works with Polaris (the meta character in 4* land)
2) Counters Polaris
3) Can be used with a 5* (America, Death Lok)
4) Provides a unique niche ability (for Puzzle Gauntlet)
5) Lost in the endless sea of other 4*s who do similar things
6) Trash

KGB

entrailbucket

That's about as good a summary of the tier as I've ever seen.

I don't want to start the "should they" debate again because it's pointless, but at this point I think we've reached "can they" in the "change Polaris" debate.

A change that makes her less effective would have such a colossal, cascading effect on so many characters designed to either compliment or counter her that it would light the entire 4* tier on fire.

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:
That's about as good a summary of the tier as I've ever seen.

I don't want to start the "should they" debate again because it's pointless, but at this point I think we've reached "can they" in the "change Polaris" debate.

A change that makes her less effective would have such a colossal, cascading effect on so many characters designed to either compliment or counter her that it would light the entire 4* tier on fire.

You'll be standing there, putting gasoline onto that fire.

DAZ0273

@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:
"Works with Polaris & BRB" is a bit of a sad bar to aspire to these days and I really don't think she needs help to stun people. So yeah he sounds made up for that team but it is hardly a team that was struggling. I think this guy potentially makes SHIELD Sim worst for some 4* players who don't have a BRB. I guess we shall see.

He's a 4*, so pretty much the only categories for a 4* release to fall into are
1) Works with Polaris (the meta character in 4* land)
2) Counters Polaris
3) Can be used with a 5* (America, Death Lok)
4) Provides a unique niche ability (for Puzzle Gauntlet)
5) Lost in the endless sea of other 4*s who do similar things
6) Trash

KGB

Well maybe it is time we had a shake up. It would be a good thing in innovating new 4* characters if they could get out from under Polaris and ween people off her.

DAZ0273

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's about as good a summary of the tier as I've ever seen.

I don't want to start the "should they" debate again because it's pointless, but at this point I think we've reached "can they" in the "change Polaris" debate.

A change that makes her less effective would have such a colossal, cascading effect on so many characters designed to either compliment or counter her that it would light the entire 4* tier on fire.

You'll be standing there, putting gasoline onto that fire.

I would at least consider passing him the matches. Not because I hate Polaris but because as KGB aptly summarised she is probably not good for the game in the long run if all new characters have two criteria based on her for being a player base consideration.

KGB

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's about as good a summary of the tier as I've ever seen.

I don't want to start the "should they" debate again because it's pointless, but at this point I think we've reached "can they" in the "change Polaris" debate.

A change that makes her less effective would have such a colossal, cascading effect on so many characters designed to either compliment or counter her that it would light the entire 4* tier on fire.

You'll be standing there, putting gasoline onto that fire.

I would at least consider passing him the matches. Not because I hate Polaris but because as KGB aptly summarised she is probably not good for the game in the long run if all new characters have two criteria based on her for being a player base consideration.

Well as I've discussed with EB many times, the 4* tier is just a speed bump for players these days. Very few spend much time there because the push is on for 5* tier esp if you are going to play PvP (for PvE all you need is Polaris until you get the Meta 5* characters that shine in PvE). So time spent by the Devs balancing the 4* tier is mostly wasted because 4* PvP (and 3* PvP I assume too) just consists of boosted 5* characters these days.

KGB

DAZ0273

@KGB said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's about as good a summary of the tier as I've ever seen.

I don't want to start the "should they" debate again because it's pointless, but at this point I think we've reached "can they" in the "change Polaris" debate.

A change that makes her less effective would have such a colossal, cascading effect on so many characters designed to either compliment or counter her that it would light the entire 4* tier on fire.

You'll be standing there, putting gasoline onto that fire.

I would at least consider passing him the matches. Not because I hate Polaris but because as KGB aptly summarised she is probably not good for the game in the long run if all new characters have two criteria based on her for being a player base consideration.

Well as I've discussed with EB many times, the 4* tier is just a speed bump for players these days. Very few spend much time there because the push is on for 5* tier esp if you are going to play PvP (for PvE all you need is Polaris until you get the Meta 5* characters that shine in PvE). So time spent by the Devs balancing the 4* tier is mostly wasted because 4* PvP (and 3* PvP I assume too) just consists of boosted 5* characters these days.

KGB

So time to stop releasing 4? But what do you replace them with? Maybe Supports get their own releases and are winnable in events? A new 4.5 tier?

entrailbucket

I think the time for the "should they do it" debate has passed, though. Like, I obviously have an opinion about it, and I think it's unhealthy to build a whole tier of this game completely around one character, but that is pretty inarguably what they've done.

Changing her at this point would have so many knock-on effects across so many characters that I don't think it's realistic to even do it.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
I think the time for the "should they do it" debate has passed, though. Like, I obviously have an opinion about it, and I think it's unhealthy to build a whole tier of this game completely around one character, but that is pretty inarguably what they've done.

Changing her at this point would have so many knock-on effects across so many characters that I don't think it's realistic to even do it.

So we have pretty much admitted that the 4* tier has hit the peak and can never have another meta so it really is time to go in a different direction with something for the player base to chase unless we want a 5* always release cadence. Not impossible of course but will not be popular to many either.

WhiteBomber

@entrailbucket said:
Changing her at this point would have so many knock-on effects across so many characters that I don't think it's realistic to even do it.

I would like to counter this point with:
Those characters are already basically useless anyway, so you might as well try to better balance the tier. Though, buffing other characters would be the better approach here, especially since she is already so easy to stop. If every 4star was half as useful as her, 4star tier wouldn't be so pointless.

I personally think she is actually only a little stronger than a 4star should be, since just about any 5star will murder her with a few match 3's. Tone her offense so she doesn't hit harder than 80% of 5stars and she's good. Those characters made to counter her can still have value against other (especially new) characters who like SAPs.

Also, to be on topic, this character sounds interesting / maybe fun?

KGB

It's not that you can't have another Meta in 4* land.

The better question to ask is why do we need another meta in 4* land. Or even EB's everyone balanced preference - why do you need that either.

Right now for newer players, it's easy to finish the 4* tier, just get Polaris and Grocket (or someone similar) and you're all set. Easy peasy and you push on to the 5* tier (the 3* tier used to just be Dr Strange before they started releasing tons more 3). If there are more characters you need (EB's idea of lots of balance) and/or regular meta changes that makes it HARDER for new players to know what character(s) to chase (esp if the meta changes even semi frequently since from IceIX answer it takes 1-2 years to get to 5 land) and means they need to devote lots of resources to conquering the 4* tier.

KGB

DAZ0273

@KGB said:
It's not that you can't have another Meta in 4* land.

The better question to ask is why do we need another meta in 4* land. Or even EB's everyone balanced preference - why do you need that either.

Right now for newer players, it's easy to finish the 4* tier, just get Polaris and Grocket (or someone similar) and you're all set. Easy peasy and you push on to the 5* tier (the 3* tier used to just be Dr Strange before they started releasing tons more 3). If there are more characters you need (EB's idea of lots of balance) and/or regular meta changes that makes it HARDER for new players to know what character(s) to chase (esp if the meta changes even semi frequently since from IceIX answer it takes 1-2 years to get to 5 land) and means they need to devote lots of resources to conquering the 4* tier.

KGB

Right, so time for a plan B.

bbigler

You can get to 5* land in less than a year, even without spending. With some spending, you can do it in 6 months.

entrailbucket

@KGB said:
It's not that you can't have another Meta in 4* land.

The better question to ask is why do we need another meta in 4* land. Or even EB's everyone balanced preference - why do you need that either.

Right now for newer players, it's easy to finish the 4* tier, just get Polaris and Grocket (or someone similar) and you're all set. Easy peasy and you push on to the 5* tier (the 3* tier used to just be Dr Strange before they started releasing tons more 3). If there are more characters you need (EB's idea of lots of balance) and/or regular meta changes that makes it HARDER for new players to know what character(s) to chase (esp if the meta changes even semi frequently since from IceIX answer it takes 1-2 years to get to 5 land) and means they need to devote lots of resources to conquering the 4* tier.

KGB

I don't want to derail this any further than we already have, but I'll just toss out one idea. If I accept your assertion that the 4* tier is just meant to be passed through on the way to 5* -- you only grab two guys and then move up, why require those specific (quite old) guys?

Why not give players several roughly equivalent options, released at regular intervals, so that they don't have to chase after Polaris to pass through to the next tier? Like, make every 3rd or 4th 4* a new Polaris, to make it easy for players to move up?

fnedude

I just love that i'll be able to read this description on the screen with a microscope...

LavaManLee

@fnedude said:
I just love that i'll be able to read this description on the screen with a microscope...

Yeah, it's like the supports. Not everyone plays this on Steam or an iPad. Please allow a way to view the descriptions in a larger font.

Bad

Given icelX answer (and it's something I already suspected) I think it's pretty futile to still be talking about the 4* tier relevance.
Put attention into this: this is a gacha game where 5* long time players, although on great number, are an astounding minority and the game needs to continuosly release characters for the great amount of newcomers could get some characters to play, while they get stronger, while they chase meta characters, or while they choose to don't do it.

DAZ0273

@Bad said:
Given icelX answer (and it's something I already suspected) I think it's pretty futile to still be talking about the 4* tier relevance.
Put attention into this: this is a gacha game where 5* long time players, although on great number, are an astounding minority and the game needs to continuosly release characters for the great amount of newcomers could get some characters to play, while they get stronger, while they chase meta characters, or while they choose to don't do it.

Right so either make a new 4* meta to chase or create new content. If newer players are bypassing the very bloated 4* tier then what purpose does adding to it serve? Better to add a 4.5 tier which also gives 4* players and up and comers something new to chase. Make this new 4.5* the answer to boosted low cover 5* issue.

Bad

Are new 4* players bypassing the 4* tier? Some proofs, please?