Discussion on PVP MMR

Bowgentle

I know they said they're working on a nerf, I just said that it needs to be a big one, not some tweaked numbers.

dianetics

If they are going to nerf him the nerf needs to be heavy. Like making him borderline unusable, so he can get a real balance pass later.

Nothing would be worse than announcing a nerf and the nerf not actually doing anything.

I don’t care whether Chasm gets a nerf or not, but I know a lot of people don’t like it, so if they do it make sure it is effective.

DrClever

The amount a toon is used ought to be a decent proxy for its relative power so a rolling count of something like the median popularity of the toons you've used might suffice as a factor for balancing MMR.

They still need to smooth out the differences within the tiers but I think there are ways of achieving better matchmaking without introducing more visible complexity.

entrailbucket

@Alex502 I think they just need to decide what they want their game to be, and then adapt or change whatever existing mechanics are needed to create that game.

If BCS wants to have big power discrepancies at a tier that's fine and it's absolutely their decision to do that, but everything in the game right now considers all 4* to be equal and all 5* to be equal.

Their efforts so far feel...unfocused...to me. They've had some great ideas (like supports in PvP) that may ultimately make the game more fun, but don't necessarily play nicely with older mechanics. The new characters and character buffs often have really cool ideas, but something ends up being off about them, or they're bugged and never get fixed.

It feels like a startup tech company that has too many product/design people, who have great ideas, but not enough engineers to implement them.

KGB

@DrClever said:
The amount a toon is used ought to be a decent proxy for its relative power so a rolling count of something like the median popularity of the toons you've used might suffice as a factor for balancing MMR.

While that sounds good on paper, it assumes that the player has access to EVERY character at that tier AND they are all roughly the same level.

If you have 3 550 5 stars and the rest are around 450, you will pretty much exclusively use those 3 550 characters because you have to, not because they are great.

If you have all characters AND they are roughly the same level then boost weeks will skew usages towards boosted characters since they get +100 levels.

What EB has posted before is probably the most decent proxy. That is, how often unboosted characters are used when the player has boosted characters they could use (which means they'd need to not only look at usage but peer into your roster to see who you could have used instead and try to figure out why you didn't use a boosted character).

KGB

DrClever

@KGB said:

@DrClever said:
The amount a toon is used ought to be a decent proxy for its relative power so a rolling count of something like the median popularity of the toons you've used might suffice as a factor for balancing MMR.

While that sounds good on paper, it assumes that the player has access to EVERY character at that tier AND they are all roughly the same level.

If you have 3 550 5 stars and the rest are around 450, you will pretty much exclusively use those 3 550 characters because you have to, not because they are great.

But as long as they aren't all that commonly used you'd still get matched with players who have been using similarly unpopular (which is to say weak) characters.

BriMan2222

@dianetics said:
We can actually gauge it by looking at how commonly boosted characters show up in your tier.
There are about 10-15 characters that never show up when boosted in the 5* tier. Some of them already had balance passes. Ghost Rider, Daken, Loki, Wasp, Gambit, Archangel, Hela, Black Widow, Yelena, Cap, Cap, Captain Marvel, Abigail Brand. There are probably others, but I never see these in pvp even boosted.
I'm not sure about the 4* tier, but I guess it is wider. There are about 20 good to great 4s and like 5 top tier 4s.

I'll agree with all of those except archangel. I see him pretty regularly when boosted and use him myself (unless there are 2 other boosted 5's that are better). His blue hits hard and is the rare 5 star stun and his green hits hard as well. There is usually a better outlet for black.

KGB

@dianetics said:
We can actually gauge it by looking at how commonly boosted characters show up in your tier.
There are about 10-15 characters that never show up when boosted in the 5* tier. Some of them already had balance passes. Ghost Rider, Daken, Loki, Wasp, Gambit, Archangel, Hela, Black Widow, Yelena, Cap, Cap, Captain Marvel, Abigail Brand. There are probably others, but I never see these in pvp even boosted.
I'm not sure about the 4* tier, but I guess it is wider. There are about 20 good to great 4s and like 5 top tier 4s.

Again though, most of those characters you listed are quite old ones. We have no idea how many current players have those characters champed. In other words, if there are 100,000 players playing 5* PVP, how many have a champed Wasp or a champed Loki to even use if that character is boosted? If only 5% have the character champed then you won't see that character very much because they are rare to begin with so the balances may have been just fine for Ghost Rider but no one has him to use.

The other thing about looking at your queue is that you only see someone's defensive team. That may not be the team they climbed with but rather the last one they used on defense and lots of players try to leave out strong defensive teams for obvious reasons. Lucky the dev's can see exactly what teams were actually used vs what other teams so they know for sure and don't have to rely on looking at queues.

KGB

entrailbucket

Calculating character strength off usage is impossible for a certain type of player, which unfortunately includes most of us.

Example: Civil War Cap is actually a murderer now, after his buff. I never see him, even when he's boosted, but not because he's bad. It's because he used to be bad, so "smart" players never bothered putting resources into him, so on their roster, even after the buff, he's still awful.

They could've turned him into the best character in the game, and half the players wouldn't notice because they didn't champion him however many years ago.

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:
Calculating character strength off usage is impossible for a certain type of player, which unfortunately includes most of us.

Example: Civil War Cap is actually a murderer now, after his buff. I never see him, even when he's boosted, but not because he's bad. It's because he used to be bad, so "smart" players never bothered putting resources into him, so on their roster, even after the buff, he's still awful.

They could've turned him into the best character in the game, and half the players wouldn't notice because they didn't champion him however many years ago.

You're a bit unfair.
Anyone who's not at your level of resources won't have everyone at a usable level.
I champed my Cap when I could - he's still only 474.
And I don't have a lopsided, min-maxed roster.

entrailbucket

At 474, with the boost, he should be pretty usable for you! Have you tried him out?

Bowgentle

I will next time he comes around.
I'm impressed by Gambit this PVP though, he's actually a threat now!

DAZ0273

@dianetics said:
We can actually gauge it by looking at how commonly boosted characters show up in your tier.
There are about 10-15 characters that never show up when boosted in the 5* tier. Some of them already had balance passes. Ghost Rider, Daken, Loki, Wasp, Gambit, Archangel, Hela, Black Widow, Yelena, Cap, Cap, Captain Marvel, Abigail Brand. There are probably others, but I never see these in pvp even boosted.
I'm not sure about the 4* tier, but I guess it is wider. There are about 20 good to great 4s and like 5 top tier 4s.

I am seeing quite a bit of Gambit at the moment in Stay on Target. Ghost Rider to a less extent but he is there. Shang Chi and Jane Thor are the main teams I am seeing. My MMR is around 465-ish.

DAZ0273

Actually - thinking about Gambit I wonder if a lot of players might have cashed him in after his nerf back in the day? I kept mine but he only had a few covers anyway and is still only 5/3/2. I tried him out but it turned out playing cards are no match for hammers.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:
Actually - thinking about Gambit I wonder if a lot of players might have cashed him in after his nerf back in the day? I kept mine but he only had a few covers anyway and is still only 5/3/2. I tried him out but it turned out playing cards are no match for hammers.

Yep, that's exactly what happened. It's too bad, because the buff they gave him was really pretty good. He's not bad at all now -- not usable unboosted, but when boosted his powers hit hard. But selling him was a completely logical and arguably optimal thing to do at the time.

Bowgentle

Was it? Trading for random 5* covers didn't seem enticing to me at the time.

entrailbucket

If you were never going to use him for anything ever (remember this was before 5* boosts), then yeah -- trading in a useless guy for some % chance at getting something useful would be optimal.

Bowgentle

I learned from not getting anything useful from the OML tokens that selling a champed 5 was a very very bad idea.
But you're right, at the time selling probably seemed optimal.

Alex502

I remember selling Gambit because I had like only one or two covers for him, and with the nerf I thought I'd have a better chance at someone more functional. I forget who I got. I still do not have Gambit rerostered. He's one of only 3 characters in the game I do not have any covers for, and yet I'm not mad about it.

pepitedechocolat

"Any topic that runs for too long will contain a part about nerfing Chasm" <- MPQ forum law

@entrailbucket said:
Great! I have a roster of 15 fully maxed out 550 5*, and another 40 or so over lvl 500. I've been playing for about 10 years. I am as far from a new player as it gets. On your scale from "clueless" to "serious," I'm about as serious as it gets.

By your logic I should be rewarded with easier matches, correct? Why am I being "punished" for playing well?

As far as power levels, if you seriously think the gap between Polaris and Spider-Woman isn't a massive discrepancy, I don't know what to tell you. There are tons of examples at the 4* and 5* tier -- these gaps in power level are not small.

I am not sure why you say you are punished. because you only see double 550 in pvp ?

You are free to call me clueless, but I think there can be situations were spider woman is better suited than Polaris. The issue is not power level, it is "speed meta". Polaris does damage fast, and it is all that matter in pve, and most of the time in pvp (luckily chasm in 5* land is an exception ).

Unfortunately except for special event (puzzle, boss, welcome to shield), mpq is based on clear speed, which leads to overusing a certain type of chars, and neglecting others, and above all discourage creativity, as there are only a few char available at each tier that are "fastest clear".