Discussion on PVP MMR

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: Roster progress report, and plans for your roster.

entrailbucket

@ShionSinX The SCL you choose for PvP does not affect the opponents you see, if only affects your placement and the rewards you get. Outside of a few extremely rare cases (that I guarantee do not apply to you) you should always choose the highest CL you have access to.

Zarqa

@entrailbucket said:
@ShionSinX The SCL you choose for PvP does not affect the opponents you see, if only affects your placement and the rewards you get. Outside of a few extremely rare cases (that I guarantee do not apply to you) you should always choose the highest CL you have access to.

At Shield Rank 104, that is SCL09

entrailbucket

Oh interesting! I just saw his last paragraph and assumed.

I'm still on a mission to make sure everybody knows that particular bit of completely non-intuitive information.

Zarqa

And it’s appreciated! I think what @ShionSinX was trying to say is that he wants to see what PvP is like without champed 4s at SCL10 when he gets there. Which I think is an interesting experiment.

Bowgentle

@Zarqa said:
And it’s appreciated! I think what @ShionSinX was trying to say is that he wants to see what PvP is like without champed 4s at SCL10 when he gets there. Which I think is an interesting experiment.

The same as CL9.
PVE will be more interesting.

ShionSinX

It is as Zarqa said, precisely. It might not even happen, who knows. I might have to leave them unchamped (and as I finished pretty much everyone in the 4★ tier with shards I managed to have a proper build for everyone so far). Tho I do farm 1★s for exp, as thats iso profitable even beyond SR140 last I checked, so it sounds doable. Its a bit extra work applying those covers and selling them but thats still faster than a Hulkasm mirror match

@Bowgentle said:

@Zarqa said:
And it’s appreciated! I think what @ShionSinX was trying to say is that he wants to see what PvP is like without champed 4s at SCL10 when he gets there. Which I think is an interesting experiment.

The same as CL9.
PVE will be more interesting.

You think so? I think that there shouldnt be that many people with a similar pvp MMR in SCL10; I wanna see what kind of opponent is going to get pushed into my queues. Characters around lv255 at most in SCL10 seem rare, as you'd think anyone who can would have already champed Pol/Grocket/Juggs minimum to attempt SCL10 pve (and probably did back when they were on SCL8 or 9).

Im just more patient when it comes to these things I guess.

Bowgentle

@ShionSinX said:

It is as Zarqa said, precisely. It might not even happen, who knows. I might have to leave them unchamped (and as I finished pretty much everyone in the 4★ tier with shards I managed to have a proper build for everyone so far). Tho I do farm 1★s for exp, as thats iso profitable even beyond SR140 last I checked, so it sounds doable. Its a bit extra work applying those covers and selling them but thats still faster than a Hulkasm mirror match

@Bowgentle said:

@Zarqa said:
And it’s appreciated! I think what @ShionSinX was trying to say is that he wants to see what PvP is like without champed 4s at SCL10 when he gets there. Which I think is an interesting experiment.

The same as CL9.
PVE will be more interesting.

You think so? I think that there shouldnt be that many people with a similar pvp MMR in SCL10; I wanna see what kind of opponent is going to get pushed into my queues. Characters around lv255 at most in SCL10 seem rare, as you'd think anyone who can would have already champed Pol/Grocket/Juggs minimum to attempt SCL10 pve (and probably did back when they were on SCL8 or 9).

Im just more patient when it comes to these things I guess.

Once again, CL in PVP has no influence on what teams you see.

entrailbucket

I was right, sorta! @ShionSinX , the CL you choose has no effect on matchmaking. You'll see the same opponents in CL10 as you would in 9 (or 8, or 5). Opponents are determined by your current score and roster ONLY.

ShionSinX

@entrailbucket said:
I was right, sorta! @ShionSinX , the CL you choose has no effect on matchmaking. You'll see the same opponents in CL10 as you would in 9 (or 8, or 5). Opponents are determined by your current score and roster ONLY.

I know. But at the same time when you go higher your MMR naturally is increased at a faster pace (per event I mean). You see people at a higher MMR quicker the stronger your roster is and the more points you get. As I take small steps on personal MMR I notice those things that people skip through, like at which point I start seeing only stronger people has gone lower and lower over time.

As an example easier to understand, I know at which level bracket and SCL I started seeing champed 4★ teams 90% of the time. (I wish I had stopped a step below where I would see mostly 3★ teams up to my 25th win...)

The higher you go the less people there are, the game wouldnt push me those opponents when there were more weaker people on a similar MMR, and I dont think it will get better when I move up on SCLs.

Correct me if Im wrong: you dont see people from different SCLs when you join an event.

entrailbucket

@ShionSinX said:

@entrailbucket said:
I was right, sorta! @ShionSinX , the CL you choose has no effect on matchmaking. You'll see the same opponents in CL10 as you would in 9 (or 8, or 5). Opponents are determined by your current score and roster ONLY.

I know. But at the same time when you go higher your MMR naturally is increased at a faster pace (per event I mean). You see people at a higher MMR quicker the stronger your roster is and the more points you get. As I take small steps on personal MMR I notice those things that people skip through, like at which point I start seeing only stronger people has gone lower and lower over time.

As an example easier to understand, I know at which level bracket and SCL I started seeing champed 4★ teams 90% of the time. (I wish I had stopped a step below where I would see mostly 3★ teams up to my 25th win...)

The higher you go the less people there are, the game wouldnt push me those opponents when there were more weaker people on a similar MMR, and I dont think it will get better when I move up on SCLs.

Correct me if Im wrong: you dont see people from different SCLs when you join an event.

You are wrong. SCL has no effect on which opponents you see in PvP.

ShionSinX

Thats the thing, I always see the same names and they are frequently in my bracket, thats what striked me weirdly when you guys said it has no effect. Its insane to see a few names EVERY event and more often than not, in the same bracket (everyone waiting for flips, lmao). Even people who you'd think would be playing a higher SCL, but I guessed they just drop it for better placement rewards (like they do for pve).

Play in 2 different SCLs at the same slice and note the players you play against.

Only reason I never did that is because I always play the highest SCL for better rewards. I still need lots of slots so I didnt think it was worth it for now.

entrailbucket

MPQ players are creatures of habit...a lot of players play the same way, at the same times, on the same days, etc.

Matchmaking is pretty well understood among the top PvP players, even though it seems weird -- it follows some basic rules but they're mostly non-intuitive.

ShionSinX

TBH one of the most striking things to me was when I increased my three top 4★ from 225 to 240 (the classic Pol/Grocket/Juggs) and instantly saw the repercussion on my MMR the next pvp event. From champed Polaris with a few different partners here and there (mostly Grocket and MT, but often a boosted 5★ or maxed 3★) to seeing champed Pol/Juggs all the time.

Edit: to clarify a previous notion I had, I did hear 'how it worked', which is basically 'you are fighting for placement against your SCL but fight against everyone', but it was not entirely what I would see myself from experience, which is purely anecdotal bias but thats on me. After seeing the same common names over and over on my bracket (including alliance mates) which I know that are on the same SCL it slipped my mind and I thought 'you see the same roster strength (MMR) no matter the SCL'. And not curious enough to try diff SCLs because I didnt want to give up rewards just for that.

DAZ0273

@ShionSinX said:
TBH one of the most striking things to me was when I increased my three top 4★ from 225 to 240 (the classic Pol/Grocket/Juggs) and instantly saw the repercussion on my MMR the next pvp event. From champed Polaris with a few different partners here and there (mostly Grocket and MT, but often a boosted 5★ or maxed 3★) to seeing champed Pol/Juggs all the time.

Edit: to clarify a previous notion I had, I did hear 'how it worked', which is basically 'you are fighting for placement against your SCL but fight against everyone', but it was not entirely what I would see myself from experience, which is purely anecdotal bias but thats on me. After seeing the same common names over and over on my bracket (including alliance mates) which I know that are on the same SCL it slipped my mind and I thought 'you see the same roster strength (MMR) no matter the SCL'. And not curious enough to try diff SCLs because I didnt want to give up rewards just for that.

If you think about it then it is not too surprising that you will find MMR changes at certain levels simply because what those levels represent.

266 Max level 3*
255 -270 One cover 5* base/levelled for free
270 - Baby champed 4*

Most players around these levels are going to land at these milestones. There are not going to be a huge amount of players trying to manipulate MMR because they don't know it exists so players will land at these normal level spots. That only gives the game what is available to it in order to match players for you. There is going to be far more players at lvl 270 and that level is close enough to 240 to stretch MMR to give you those matches because the likelihood of there being dozens of players with 240 MMR in your slice at the time you are playing isn't great. At 225 You are still going to get a mixture of high level 3, single 4 and low cover 5s. At 240 there are more baby champed 4 to match.

Also - as far as can be ascertained but looks likely is that boosted characters do not affect MMR - MMR is calculated on base levels not boosted.

entrailbucket

@dianetics said:
The big problem is that matchmaking is not explained at all in the game. It's completely opaque.
You have no idea that how matchmaking is handled and it's something the community had to figure out.
If you level your roster incorrectly you could theoretically ruin your PvP experience for a long time.

There should be some sort of in game explanation to how it works. This issue is not a PvP specific thing either it reaches to all parts of the early game.

The biggest problem with matchmaking is character balance.

The matchmaking algorithm looks at character levels, so if your roster is champion 4*, you'll generally get matched with champion 4* players and lower. The problem, of course, is that not all champion 4* are created equal.

If you champion Talos, you're going to run into a wall of Polaris teams, or AC, or Juggernaut teams, and you may have some trouble with them.

The answer is to make sure characters at each tier are roughly equal in power level, or alternatively, if characters are actually meant to be unbalanced, make the algorithm aware that some characters are meant to be very strong and some characters are meant to be very weak.

entrailbucket

If all the characters at a tier were roughly equal, then people could level up whoever they wanted, whenever they wanted, and not worry about screwing up their matchmaking. If you championed Talos you'd be able to beat Polaris.

OR you teach the algorithm that Polaris is good and Talos is terrible, so the Talos players only see each other and the Polaris players can't punch down at them.

Of course, either fix would be terrible for the powergamers/super-optimizers -- they'd lose the massive advantage they currently have over the masses of normal players.

entrailbucket

PvP, in general, is kind of a bizarre nightmare world for anybody who's not up on all the mechanics, but it really always has been. Lots of newer players join, score some points, then immediately lose like 500 points for no clear reason and give up forever.

I don't think it's actually fixable, short of a total redo. Most players avoid it until someone explains how it works, but I don't think a (developer-created) tutorial would help all that much, either -- I don't know about BCS, but Demiurge never really "got" PvP like the players did.

I would, selfishly, love to see a tutorial that tries to explain "here's why you randomly lost all 800 points you scored, in the course of 30 seconds," though.

entrailbucket

Eh...like, I honestly don't know if that would make it better! The systems are so bizarre that explaining them might make folks less likely to try it!

pepitedechocolat

@dianetics said:

@entrailbucket said:
The biggest problem with matchmaking is character balance.
The matchmaking algorithm looks at character levels, so if your roster is champion 4*, you'll generally get matched with champion 4* players and lower. The problem, of course, is that not all champion 4* are created equal.

I would say this is the second biggest problem but it is also a huge issue.
Wasp =/= Okoye but MMR looks at them the same. I don't really know how the devs would code around this, unless they have an internal power level. If they do have that and they don't make it public it is a bigger problem than the silence on matchmaking.

So you suggest that new players that see some chars that work well, their mmr would be increased for playing stronger chars. basically you want to punish players for trying to play better and find synergies... this is against about every rule of good game design

Besides, that would be a nightmare for devs to maintain with each release for each char and and different char synergies

entrailbucket

I think I was the one saying that, but yes!

If Okoye is purposely designed to be stronger than Wasp (for example), then a player who levels Wasp is at a huge disadvantage if you match them with an Okoye player.

Currently matchmaking treats all characters at a tier as the same. If I champion only Talos, I'll see champion Polaris teams.

Of course, they could also fix the problem by making sure there are no giant power level gaps within each star tier...