Chasm not healing

HoundofShadow

I'm sure a lot of players will disagree with removing him. He brought so many QOL changes to the game such as in pves against Mindless Ones and giving good defense in pvps.

Bowgentle

At this point I think everyone will be OK with Chasm being removed.
Remove Kang, too, while you're at it.

Bad

QoL? Of you count as QoL nerfing BRB, grocket, wong, SC, and now rebalanced kingping, then indeed it's a huge QoL change.

ThaRoadWarrior

the order of operation stuff has been kind of annoying - Thano5's court death now triggers after iHulk dies but before he revives rather than immediately after he revives, but also when Chasm dies his stun prevents CD from happening. Just curious whose "on death" stun should have priority there by design rather than happenstance.

entrailbucket

Eeesshhh that's annoying. Thanos's effectiveness as a Chasm/Hulk counter was 100% due to the order of operations resolving in that exact way.

I guess there's no guarantee with stuff like that, but I doubt either result was intentional.

KGB

There is no panacea with regards to order of operations. Something always has to go 1st and something else has to go 2nd and so on.

It's obvious that they split IHulks passive into 2 different pieces of coding to allow Kangs Blue to potentially end the match. Before his passive was a single atomic operation that revived him immediately if he had teammates. Now it's 2 operations in order to allow other passives like Thanos/Kang etc to have a chance to process before the 2nd part of the operation (revive) takes place.

As a player base we have to live with either Kangs Blue or Thanos Black being able to win the match.

KGB

ThaRoadWarrior

There could be global decision like "tie goes to the offensive player" so that Chasm dies, Court Death goes off on the attacker side, then chasm resolves (or not if CD defeats the others), ideally this would also manifest at battle start in a mirror match where offensive player's chasm always stuns first regardless of character order.

I will say that this is a soft-nerf to Thano5 along the lines of the changes to traps for 3* Daredevil and the move from countdowns to repeaters after C4rol was introduced way back in the before times. I would hope that we see him hit the list of rebalances at some point here if this is working as intended.

iteration2

I suspect that what's happening with chasm's heal is that he is healing after the web tiles are matched, but then immediately takes damage at the end of the turn, and then these two numbers get added together and displayed as one, or maybe the heal is overwritten by the damage before it's displayed.

In any case, I've definitely noticed that Chasm very often doesn't seem to heal, while his health stays more or less constant, implying that he must be healing even if we don't see it.

It would be great if there was a combat log we could access during or after each fight, because even when things are working correctly, it's often difficult to tell what happened.

entrailbucket

If anything, as they move further and further into the territory of "overpowered passives are all that matters," this stuff will become more common.

Active abilities are really easy to resolve. Passives like resurrection, auto stun, healing on moves, Away...all that stuff is highly, highly dependent on order of operations, and the more complicated those passives get, the more important their resolution order becomes.

This stuff is just way, way more work than it seems like, and I think the new developers are also a small team. It's pretty easy for a designer to say "hey how about a guy who stuns the enemy before the fight starts." It's also probably relatively easy to code that ability.

The problem shows up when you realize that there's like 300 characters in this game that all have to get tested with that new ability, and some of them are super old and probably got coded in old/weird ways.

KGB

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
There could be global decision like "tie goes to the offensive player" so that Chasm dies, Court Death goes off on the attacker side, then chasm resolves (or not if CD defeats the others), ideally this would also manifest at battle start in a mirror match where offensive player's chasm always stuns first regardless of character order.

I will say that this is a soft-nerf to Thano5 along the lines of the changes to traps for 3* Daredevil and the move from countdowns to repeaters after C4rol was introduced way back in the before times. I would hope that we see him hit the list of rebalances at some point here if this is working as intended.

Yeah but the problem was iHulk, not Chasm.

On offense you kill enemy iHulk and then your Court Death will resolve then iHulk will revive. So your Court Death won't then hit the newly revived iHulk which was the problem you described in a prior post.

As Entrailbucket says, there are ever more passives such that for many events like Death there are multiple passives that have to resolve and something has to go first and something else second and so on.

KGB

ThaRoadWarrior

I also described the problem of Chasm's revive-stun overriding Thano5's Court Death stun, and my fix of "attacker gets priority" would be fine if it worked in that context also where you have two characters with competing "on death" stun events. The stun component on 5* Court Death was supposed to make it so that it guaranteed the damage hit, so that behavior is a nerf for sure.

The way Chasm's power is worded is: At the start of the match and whenever Chasm revives, stun the enemy team for 1 turn. If Chasm is downed and there are N or more Abyss tiles on the board, Chasm is revived with XX% health etc. So the stun happens on the Revive, not the Down based on this wording.

Court Death says: When you down an enemy, stun all characters except Thanos for 2-turns, then deal 15123 damage toall enemies and 3751 damage to Thanos' allies.

So the way I would expect it to work is:
1) Chasm (or iHulk) is downed
2) Court Death Stun is triggered, then the damage
3) Subsequent Revive events trigger

It seems like the way it WAS working is that the revive events on iHulk and Chasm happened simultaneously to the Down event, which is what allowed Court Death to trigger after Hulk came back. That one seems to have been "fixed," but Chasm's is still happening as a simultaneous event which gives his stun the priority over Court Death.

entrailbucket

Part of the problem here is in the descriptions, too. We've noticed this with a few other characters (Wong is one) where the description doesn't 100% describe exactly what the ability actually does (and, to be fair, if you wanted to completely lay out exactly what some of these abilities do, it'd be a massive wall of text). The other problem is that most of these little details are irrelevant to 99% of players -- there's only a few of us who even noticed the big order of operations change they just put in.

KGB

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
I also described the problem of Chasm's revive-stun overriding Thano5's Court Death stun, and my fix of "attacker gets priority" would be fine if it worked in that context also where you have two characters with competing "on death" stun events. The stun component on 5* Court Death was supposed to make it so that it guaranteed the damage hit, so that behavior is a nerf for sure.

The way Chasm's power is worded is: At the start of the match and whenever Chasm revives, stun the enemy team for 1 turn. If Chasm is downed and there are N or more Abyss tiles on the board, Chasm is revived with XX% health etc. So the stun happens on the Revive, not the Down based on this wording.

Court Death says: When you down an enemy, stun all characters except Thanos for 2-turns, then deal 15123 damage toall enemies and 3751 damage to Thanos' allies.

So the way I would expect it to work is:
1) Chasm (or iHulk) is downed
2) Court Death Stun is triggered, then the damage
3) Subsequent Revive events trigger

It seems like the way it WAS working is that the revive events on iHulk and Chasm happened simultaneously to the Down event, which is what allowed Court Death to trigger after Hulk came back. That one seems to have been "fixed," but Chasm's is still happening as a simultaneous event which gives his stun the priority over Court Death.

Ah, so they split iHulks passive into 2 parts but not Chasms. So you would expect in step 3 that Chasm would revive and stun your team for 1 turn since a revive would clear the stun leaving Chasm as the only unstunned character on either team.

So here is a question. Lets say you down iHulk and Chasm is still alive but after your court death damage he would be dead. Would you expect:

1) iHulk down - he gets set to revive since Chasm still alive
Court Death fires downing Chasm
Match over since all enemies down

2) iHulk down - he gets set to revive since Chasm still alive
Court Death fires downing Chasm. There are no other alive team mates so he is not set to revive
iHulk revives since he was set to revive

There's ambiguity there about what could reasonably expect to happen based on wording of the powers.

Anyone tested whether iHulk revives if he was stunned when he was downed? He used to revive but I wonder now that they split the revive into 2 parts whether he lost that ability and now he won't revive if downed while stunned (Phoenix doesn't for example).

KGB

entrailbucket

Phoenix does revive when she's stunned -- the ability always specifically stated that, and as far as I know it's always worked correctly.

dianetics

As far as I’ve seen all revivers come back when they are stunned since all status effects are removed when a hero gets downed.

ThaRoadWarrior

if Court Death resolves on iHulk dying, and doing so kills Chasm, and they were the final 2, you should win, because that's how AOE attacks funcion and that's all Court Death is in the end, just with a conditional trigger.

KGB

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
if Court Death resolves on iHulk dying, and doing so kills Chasm, and they were the final 2, you should win, because that's how AOE attacks funcion and that's all Court Death is in the end, just with a conditional trigger.

But the AOE didn't actually down iHulk. In my example he was downed by something else prior (damage/another power). It's no different than if a cascade happened that first downs iHulk, then Chasm.

There is more than one way it could resolve and still meet the letter of the power.

KGB

WilliamK1983

Used him a bunch last night in the lighting rounds and to run through welcome to shield. He healed every web tile match if he was under 10k health. Anytime above 10k, nothing. I thought he might have healed twice above 10k, but it was M'baku healing, the slow character rotation made it seem like Chasm.

tonypq

It's crazy over a week now and no comments from BC on the healing issues or anything they may or may not be aware of that's broken with Chasm. I'm not a Chasm worshipper heh, but he's a useful character in quite a few scenarios, would be nice if he worked. When I'd seen there were no posts on the issue I created a thread in the bug forum and no responses yet. I linked this thread in that bug forum post also.

Still seems very weird he might be healing like normal for some, but at the same time is a hot broken mess for myself and some others that have posted here.

ThaRoadWarrior

@KGB said:

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
if Court Death resolves on iHulk dying, and doing so kills Chasm, and they were the final 2, you should win, because that's how AOE attacks funcion and that's all Court Death is in the end, just with a conditional trigger.

But the AOE didn't actually down iHulk. In my example he was downed by something else prior (damage/another power). It's no different than if a cascade happened that first downs iHulk, then Chasm.

There is more than one way it could resolve and still meet the letter of the power.

KGB

If court death triggers on the "down," the AOE should emit damage when Hulk is "downed" but before the revive, and if it downs Chasm, it should end the match before any revives trigger. What actually happens will depend on where the "do I have active allies?" check is performed though. Again, there is what is happening, and what is intended to happen, and only the design team knows which is which.