***** Moon Knight (Avatar of Khonshu) *****

Vhailorx

3 mediocre powers that all cost 9 or more ap?  Icky.

Trap tiles that can only be triggered by enemy matches suck, especially randomly placed traps. At least that purple passive will have some niche uses (would have been great back in the stunner bro days. . .).

Overall seems like a low/mid tier 5*.

Finally, am I going crazy, or is this absolutely certain to be moonknight just from the color combo, power descriptions, and timing?

Edit: the green doesn't say "destroyed tiles do not generate ap." Does this green generate as much as 8 random AP with each cast?  That would make it solidly good, rather than just mediocre.

Warbringa

Tony_Foot said:

I hope one day I get to place trap tiles.

This one next for a rebalance please? I'd rather they just made lazy versions of dupes and pumped the numbers and adjust the AP costs. If it is who people seem to be guessing the 4* was one of my favourites but I'm going to have to keep on hoarding. I quite liked the idea of pulling for Crystal but I'm not liking the look of the options to go with her.

I wonder if there is some sort of coding that does not allow trap tiles to be placed by the player?  I agree that trap tiles would be far more effective if we could place them because most of the time I have a good idea where the AI's next two or three matches may be based on the current board, especially if there is only one or two AI tile matchers left.

9RMetal

helix72 said:

Oooph, those are some expensive powers in 5* land. Even though we've gotten some AP generators lately (Sersi, Wanda), I find it hard to believe this character will be relevant. I can't stun him/her but I don't need to because they'll never get a power off! And who uses stuns in 5* land anyway?

Mmmm, me, who doesn't?

skittledaddy

Warbringa said:

Tony_Foot said:

I hope one day I get to place trap tiles.

This one next for a rebalance please? I'd rather they just made lazy versions of dupes and pumped the numbers and adjust the AP costs. If it is who people seem to be guessing the 4* was one of my favourites but I'm going to have to keep on hoarding. I quite liked the idea of pulling for Crystal but I'm not liking the look of the options to go with her.

I wonder if there is some sort of coding that does not allow trap tiles to be placed by the player?  I agree that trap tiles would be far more effective if we could place them because most of the time I have a good idea where the AI's next two or three matches may be based on the current board, especially if there is only one or two AI tile matchers left.

Look no further than Gertrude, our newest 4*.
Her purple ability lets you place your trap tiles.

tonypq

Tony_Foot said:

I quite liked the idea of pulling for Crystal but I'm not liking the look of the options to go with her.

My feelings exactly. I think Crystal while not meta is very interesting and probably one of the best 5s we're apparently going to get for some time. Elektra isn't amazing but her traps can be very annoying and seemingly could work in quite a few teams, she's decent enough if she was the 3rd best 5 in LLs. Was really hoping the next 5 would be very good, but I'm not liking what I see here too much. I think we're all dreaming if we believe there will ever be another LL trio where each one is good or better. 

Going to be some tough choices to make if one wants Crystal. Pull for her and get characters you don't want, or hoard for the rest of our lives lol ? Just so sick of having to blow valuable resources on 1 or 2 bums because the one good character is stuck with them for months. I really wish they'd break up the LL format and give each one their own window individually. If they aren't going to step their game up on 5* design and tuning it's the least they could do. 

Green- Destroying a row is no big deal to me, especially a random row making it worse. What would be the harm letting the player decide which row to destroy, very poor design. The damage mitigation and retaliation against don't seem to be amazing unless they release this power with some massive over tuning. No fortified CD tile is lame. I'd say 9 AP is a bit much for what this ability does, 7 would have been better. 

Black- I really hate powers like this, dealing damage to the enemy with the least current health. If you're to build up 10 AP, you should be able to pick which enemy you want to use this on. Or instead it would of been cool if it worked like say 3* Punishers red, where it simply downs the character if their health is down to a certain percent. The attack and protect tiles aren't anything special these days. 

Purple- We just get a 4* that can place her traps which is something everyone always asks for when it comes to trap abilities, then they troll the heck out of us giving us this garbage. The traps don't do anything if you match them. They only do something if the enemy matches (not destroys), pathetic. The stealing special tiles and buffing may have been cool if this ability wasn't 10 AP, again what a let down. If blacks AP cost was like 8 and purple at maybe 7, their would of been a little synergy and flow. Or if they let you place the traps, or you get the damage if either teams matches, or if the enemy destroys them and not just matches them. 

For me this character doesn't check any boxes. I can't think of any team that was just waiting for this character to come around. Nothing new here at all, plus the powers all too expensive. Just feels like they design all their character with a random number generator and could care less what the end products is, I just don't get it. I'm also really sick of them making abilities that do 2 or 3 different things, but don't do any single one of them well. 

As bland and repetitive as MPQ is with the same boring PVE/PVP events year after year, the game is still fun to me when the characters are enjoyable. However at least to me for far too long the new 5s aren't overly fun to use at all, minus the very few exceptions we've gotten. I feel like they're killing their own game releasing so many bad characters. 

HoundofShadow

Historically, recent black offensive powers always have higher than average (potential) damage/ap. For example, GED 2500, Colossus ~3200, Electro 4800, Gamora ~6300. Even vintage like GG has 2800. Depending on how high the strength his attack tiles are, we would probably see about 25k damage for his black.

As for his green, I think high direct damage would be unlikely. Tiles destroyed seem to deal damage too. On top of that, his green power does 5 things: destroy random row, deals damage, create cd, "reflect" damage and reduce damage. I think 7-9k damage seem possible. Damage reduction and damage reflection would be around 2.5k.

Anyway, Elektra/Crystal/Moon Knight is my trio to pull in May. It seems like I've to wait till September to get in to a likely meta train.

jsmjsmjsm00

I also hope the numbers don't suck because I will probably pull for elektra/crystal/moon knight.

If green generates AP that's a big plus too. Match damage hopefully going to be fixed to be high as well. Maybe with Crystal and Elektra's sustain/damage mitigation, plus this guy not being stunned, we can get enough turns to collect AP and fire big nukes. 

Bad

If he was generating AP when destroying a random row that power would be extremely good and it could drive to fast winfinite if playing with a changed tiles spammer.
It doesn't says the usual "not generates AP" but I think that is more because it has poor wording rather than the power working like that. 
However it doesn't says "tiles destroyed this way don't deal damage " and that has more possibilities to effectively work damaging like that. Adding the possible high match damage he will have, selecting the cursed enemy but firing the power to another partner, could end damaging heavily an enemy while crippling the problematic enemy for good. 
And green can be fueled by half thor. 
I wouldn't despise a new character without seeing numbers and without playing him a bit for to understand him better.
On the other hand black is expensive but the restore thing could change a lot his value if he damages a lot and restores a lot.
There is a wide field of variables in his powers, even when knowing the numbers it won't be easy to figure out how good he will perform, he has expensive powers but the things he does have great potential.

HoundofShadow

Powers that destroy row and gain
aps are rare, or non-existent. The closest character who does that is Northstar but it's limited to 3 colours. I can't think of anyone else who can do that.

His green cd is similar to Wanda's repeater in the sense that it reduces damage and reflects damage. At a cost of 9 ap, it would be good to team him up with power damage buffer or strike tiles buffer to maximise those 5 turns. 

For purely thematic purpose, we can team Moon Knight with 5* Ghost Rider and 5* Black Panther. Fire Moon Knight's green, GR's red and BP's black on the same opponent and watch him eat extra damage 4 times for every match-damage he makes.

Anyway, those powers are not finalised yet. Details of powers on the actual reveal date can differ drastically from what we now. Some examples are Ikaris' preview and I think Melinda May's preview.

Bad

It's funny to read people hating characters who do a lot of things "and none right".
Precisely that feature allows flexibility and having sinergy with different characters. 
This game still is about teams fighting, and even strong individuals like SC or Ihulk actually need partners supporting him.
This character won't be an exception as already can be seen.

bbigler

The meta characters are meta because they do 1 or 2 things really well.  So with the right partners, you can exploit those powers even more, thus creating a new meta team.  Shang Chi is a prime example, being a simple design with big numbers.  So, I agree with those that want characters to be more specialized and not a Jack of all trades.  

5*Moon Knight could be meta IF his numbers in green or black are high enough.  Then players would find a way to exploit that power, despite the high costs.  For example, if his 10 Black power dealt 40K, then players would find a way to make it work (meaning a fast team).  If his green power did a dmg reduction of 5K and hit for 5K, then players would find a team to exploit that power.  

Honestly, this game is all about the numbers, so let’s just wait and see what they give us.  I’m usually disappointed, but I still have hope.  

TheRiddler

bbigler said:

The meta characters are meta because they do 1 or 2 things really well.  So with the right partners, you can exploit those powers even more, thus creating a new meta team.  Shang Chi is a prime example, being a simple design with big numbers.  So, I agree with those that want characters to be more specialized and not a Jack of all trades.  

5*Moon Knight could be meta IF his numbers in green or black are high enough.  Then players would find a way to exploit that power, despite the high costs.  For example, if his 10 Black power dealt 40K, then players would find a way to make it work (meaning a fast team).  If his green power did a dmg reduction of 5K and hit for 5K, then players would find a team to exploit that power.  

Honestly, this game is all about the numbers, so let’s just wait and see what they give us.  I’m usually disappointed, but I still have hope.  

Especially when a big chunk of the game is pick-2 and predicated on speed.

wymtime

bbigler said:

The meta characters are meta because they do 1 or 2 things really well.  So with the right partners, you can exploit those powers even more, thus creating a new meta team.  Shang Chi is a prime example, being a simple design with big numbers.  So, I agree with those that want characters to be more specialized and not a Jack of all trades.  

5*Moon Knight could be meta IF his numbers in green or black are high enough.  Then players would find a way to exploit that power, despite the high costs.  For example, if his 10 Black power dealt 40K, then players would find a way to make it work (meaning a fast team).  If his green power did a dmg reduction of 5K and hit for 5K, then players would find a team to exploit that power.  

Honestly, this game is all about the numbers, so let’s just wait and see what they give us.  I’m usually disappointed, but I still have hope.  

Unfortunately just finding a way to make a character work just isn’t true.  Look at Havok who’s blue can feed red and Red can feed blue and hits fairly hard.  He has not gotten close to meta.

there wound need to be a character the easily fed Green and black and didn’t need either of those colors to make Moon Knight Meta.  For 9 green and 10 black they are just too expensive.  

Sure this character might get some run in PVP while boosted, but he might also get left out of there are 1-2 stronger characters buffed.

If you look at the Meta characters they don’t just have amazing synergy, but they can also stand on their own.  Okoye, SW, Colossus, Apocalypse an basically go with anyone and be good.

Seph1roth5

This is a fun argument every time a 5* comes up lol, people looking and going "meh" and others going "Not everyone has to be the best everyone's special in their own sprinkle rainbow way!"

Unless the numbers come out and are super awesome, I'm saying meh/no sprinkles.

Wolvie171

IceIX said:

New Character (???)
5-Star Rarity
Affiliations: Heroes
  

"Stop hammer time"

(Abilities listed at level 255, followed by 450)

15827 Health / 66029 Health

 21 | 24 | 22 | 144 | 184 | 164 | 91 | 3.5x
 761 | 115 | 870 | 978 | 105 | 124 | 484 | 3.5x

If green, black and purple are his highest to lowest colors, the numbers at level 450 are typos. The match damage numbers are most likely the following, which puts him on par with other 5*'s:

 978 | 870 | 761

Red, blue, and yellow numbers should be in some order of 124, 115, and 105.

HoundofShadow

Crystal and Moon Knight in pick-2 should work. She will buy enough time for him to gather aps and fire his powers, and AI usually prioritises powers with high ap costs.

Anyway, don't set your hope high for high damage outputs.

Look at Gamora's black power. It has potential to deal 42k damage for 6 black ap but it's too difficult to trigger it. His black damage/ap will be closer to 22k-25k because it can true heal and create 4 high strength attack tiles. The risk/rewards are not as high as you think. However, if the self-damage is significant enough, then it will break this 22-25k range. For example, iHulk deals 32k damage for 7 ap but it reduces his health by 44% of his max health to achieve this.

As for green, prepare for ~7k direct damage, ~2k reduction and 2.5k damage retal.

Despite all these, I'll still look forward to finding fun teams with him.

Vhailorx

bbigler said:

The meta characters are meta because they do 1 or 2 things really well.  So with the right partners, you can exploit those powers even more, thus creating a new meta team.  Shang Chi is a prime example, being a simple design with big numbers.  So, I agree with those that want characters to be more specialized and not a Jack of all trades.  

5*Moon Knight could be meta IF his numbers in green or black are high enough.  Then players would find a way to exploit that power, despite the high costs.  For example, if his 10 Black power dealt 40K, then players would find a way to make it work (meaning a fast team).  If his green power did a dmg reduction of 5K and hit for 5K, then players would find a team to exploit that power.  

Honestly, this game is all about the numbers, so let’s just wait and see what they give us.  I’m usually disappointed, but I still have hope.  

I actually don't think a 40k damage for 10 ap power would put a dent in the meta. I'm not even sure 80k for 10ap would be enough. for at least the last 4 years, meta damage output has been (i) a short ramp-up phase (collecting ap to cast or proc'ing a passive), followed by (ii) extremely high damage output (well in excess of 100k/10ap).  in 2018 and 2019 that meant okoye boosting a multi-strike attack or kitty ramping up grocket. In 2020 and beyond we have added more viable damage boosters (apoc who can boost his own cheap red, SW who has damage boosting and one of the best defensive powers in the game, etc) as well as some passives that work extremely well with damage boosters to provide effectively zero-cost massive damage (polaris, IH, and warlock).  Most recently we got SC who sidesteps the damage booster meta by simply having stupidly high damage numbers all by himself (he can do well over 150k damage for 1-3ap once he builds up some combo).

All of which is to say the key to being part of the offensive meta is not having what demi calls  "extremely high damage output" (the term they use for 5* powers that do 30k+ damage), nor even having very efficient powers that do lots of damage/ap. The key is having powers that do many strikes/ap and can therefore be boosted to absurdly high levels with existing damage boosters. And in fact the best such characters go even a step further and do many strikes without using any ap at all (polaris, IH, etc). Even SC, who operates in a totally different way, still fits this mold as his value comes from the fact that once he reaches critical mass he can effectively do infinite hits because each of his strikes is at or above ap neutrality.

None of those will ever be true of moonknight given the descriptions we have. He might have some niche uses being immune to stun, especially if his black self-healing is high (c.f. 4* DP's red), but I don't see him being anywhere near the offensive meta of the game.

bbigler

Vhailorx said:

bbigler said:

The meta characters are meta because they do 1 or 2 things really well.  So with the right partners, you can exploit those powers even more, thus creating a new meta team.  Shang Chi is a prime example, being a simple design with big numbers.  So, I agree with those that want characters to be more specialized and not a Jack of all trades.  

5*Moon Knight could be meta IF his numbers in green or black are high enough.  Then players would find a way to exploit that power, despite the high costs.  For example, if his 10 Black power dealt 40K, then players would find a way to make it work (meaning a fast team).  If his green power did a dmg reduction of 5K and hit for 5K, then players would find a team to exploit that power.  

Honestly, this game is all about the numbers, so let’s just wait and see what they give us.  I’m usually disappointed, but I still have hope.  

I actually don't think a 40k damage for 10 ap power would put a dent in the meta. I'm not even sure 80k for 10ap would be enough. for at least the last 4 years, meta damage output has been (i) a short ramp-up phase (collecting ap to cast or proc'ing a passive), followed by (ii) extremely high damage output (well in excess of 100k/10ap).  in 2018 and 2019 that meant okoye boosting a multi-strike attack or kitty ramping up grocket. In 2020 and beyond we have added more viable damage boosters (apoc who can boost his own cheap red, SW who has damage boosting and one of the best defensive powers in the game, etc) as well as some passives that work extremely well with damage boosters to provide effectively zero-cost massive damage (polaris, IH, and warlock).  Most recently we got SC who sidesteps the damage booster meta by simply having stupidly high damage numbers all by himself (he can do well over 150k damage for 1-3ap once he builds up some combo).

All of which is to say the key to being part of the offensive meta is not having what demi calls  "extremely high damage output" (the term they use for 5* powers that do 30k+ damage), nor even having very efficient powers that do lots of damage/ap. The key is having powers that do many strikes/ap and can therefore be boosted to absurdly high levels with existing damage boosters. And in fact the best such characters go even a step further and do many strikes without using any ap at all (polaris, IH, etc). Even SC, who operates in a totally different way, still fits this mold as his value comes from the fact that once he reaches critical mass he can effectively do infinite hits because each of his strikes is at or above ap neutrality.

None of those will ever be true of moonknight given the descriptions we have. He might have some niche uses being immune to stun, especially if his black self-healing is high (c.f. 4* DP's red), but I don't see him being anywhere near the offensive meta of the game.

I agree, but no character is dead on arrival because despite how good or bad a character is, players try them out and time ultimately tells how good they are.  Here’s the process:  

1. New character is announced and forumites argue how useful they are
 2. New character is in game and players get a better idea of their usefulness 
3. New character starts getting champed and players experiment with them.
4. After several months since their release, their true usefulness is determined.  

5. After other new characters are released, people revisit this old character for any synergy.  

Here are my observations since my current restart:
Shang - wasn’t considered meta at first, seen as a glass cannon, but now is widely used in PVE and also PVP
Ultron - considered bad, was experimented with and saw some use, but is now lost in obscurity 
Gamora - considered bad when compared to Apoc, but began seeing usage by some when champed, has a small presence in PVP
Sersi - considered interesting making players want to try her out, now that she’s champed, players are continuing to experiment with her
Big Wheel - considered interesting but bad with strange mechanics, after some play he’s joining Ultron in obscurity, but will make an appearance when boosted
Abigail - considered bad but has gotten some interest lately with defensive play, players are still trying her out 
Elektra - considered bad by some, players are trying out her yellow, but most don’t have her champed yet
Crystal - considered bad by some, but opinions were quickly changed during her PVP and now players want to get her

Do you see a trend here? Every time a 5* character is announced, people consider them bad or non-meta…..even Shang.  And most of the time, they are proven wrong as players use them anyway.  

HoundofShadow

80k for 10 ap can down most of the full health champed 5*. If this is not enough, nothing else will be enough.

Anyway, I'm expecting Moon Knight to be the potential candidate of our Ultron of 2022. At best, he would be around Electro/Gamora tier. The only way he can move up a lot is he gets ridiculous damage/ap. However, I think the dev is pretty conservative with such power types and such attempts are rare and usually reserved for meta.

Regardless of this, I still love his green power a lot. It's similar to Wanda's repeater, which reduce and reflect damage. Maybe we can throw him together with Wanda and Crystal for a fun team.

If his green power gains aps, he might be slotted into Polaris/BRB team more often.

Bad

Possibly the numbers won't be as good as we are expecting. 
However there are good chances that he can perform well as the team mvp.
In that case, half thor will provide green, and yellow which storm will use for aurora totalis, providing more black or green.
I think it will be a funny experimental team(but sadly out of my roster reach).