**** Echo (Maya Lopez) ****

entrailbucket

Not sure why this one's getting so much hate.  They're never going to stop making new characters (they'd go out of business), so as players, what do we want the new characters to be? 

I'd much prefer 4* to only be useful for 3* and 4* players, because otherwise they're Bishop or Polaris and I can get attacked by players at lower tiers. 

Do people really want every 4* to be Bishop or Polaris?  There's not really a middle ground for 4* -- if they're useful at all to 5* players then they're way overpowered at the 4* tier.

Vhailorx

Tony_Foot said:

Vhailorx said:

(Also, I continue to think that demi's determination to continue stuffing the 4* tier over-full is bad for the game.)

Yep imagine having to look at that wall of required iso. I don't even read them, I couldn't care less if they removed 2/3rds of them. Nothing but champ rewards at this point. In fact Wiccan was my Deadpool Spicy vault this week and I was shocked to see it was level 332. Somehow I've gathered 60 odd champ levels and I've never used him. Don't even know what he does. along with every other 4 star since about 3 years ago.

I look one up if I see someone say 'try Wiccan with the new five star because xyz'

Give the new players a chance, reduce iso to champ a 4* by half.

yup, for at least 3-4 years every new 4* had been either so OP as to be absolutely essential (stunner Bros, Polaris) or utterly superfluous except indicate as they make navigating the roster page incrementally harder. There is no middle ground with 4*s anymore; the tier is just too full.

entrailbucket

Vhailorx said:

Tony_Foot said:

Vhailorx said:

(Also, I continue to think that demi's determination to continue stuffing the 4* tier over-full is bad for the game.)

Yep imagine having to look at that wall of required iso. I don't even read them, I couldn't care less if they removed 2/3rds of them. Nothing but champ rewards at this point. In fact Wiccan was my Deadpool Spicy vault this week and I was shocked to see it was level 332. Somehow I've gathered 60 odd champ levels and I've never used him. Don't even know what he does. along with every other 4 star since about 3 years ago.

I look one up if I see someone say 'try Wiccan with the new five star because xyz'

Give the new players a chance, reduce iso to champ a 4* by half.

yup, for at least 3-4 years every new 4* had been either so OP as to be absolutely essential (stunner Bros, Polaris) or utterly superfluous except indicate as they make navigating the roster page incrementally harder. There is no middle ground with 4*s anymore; the tier is just too full.

I think the alternatives are all worse, from a player's perspective.

Barring a total rework of their monetization scheme, which is presumably off the table after 8 years, they *cannot ever* stop releasing new characters. 

Right now we get 4/5/4/5...if we want less 4*, they could go to 4/5/5/4/5/5, or they could just completely stop making 4* at all and go 5/5/5 every 2 weeks.

Another possibility is 6*, would we like it if the release order went 5/5/6?

OzarkBoatswain

Echo looks like a unique and fun character to use. Good job devs!

Bad

The art looks great for this character indeed.
Like I said this character is a good 4* for 4*s, so it doesn't has a great synergy with 5*s. Could that mean that 4*s are obsolete and not needed anymore?
Wait... let me remember... who was the previous one? Oh yes! Ikaris! So interesting 4* and so much synergy with 5*s.
And prior to him? Oh yes, the blob! I'm starting to see him on pvp. A 4* that can be played with 5*s and it seems many players are having fun with.
Previous? Hydra stomper. A good 4* paired with peggy.
Previous? Loki. It's played on pve for his synergy with SC. And it's a funny character with hillarious animations.
After all this remember exercise I think that 4*s releases are funny, needed, and refreshing for 5* and 4* players. 
The 4* tier is being too wide? Yes, it uses to happen when a game has been running for 8 years. Shargeting characters uses to be a great option for getting the one you like the most.

Anon

entrailbucket said:

Do people really want every 4* to be Bishop or Polaris?  There's not really a middle ground for 4* -- if they're useful at all to 5* players then they're way overpowered at the 4* tier.

Polaris is really good for her tier but Bishop was just fine in 4* land. 5* land is what broke him. But R4G, Vulture, America, Coulson, Karnak, and Rogue are all 4* that are fine within their tier but still get 5* play. If OBW is considered a 2.5*, then there can also be 4* that can be considered 4.5* right?

Sekilicious

Anon said:

entrailbucket said:

Do people really want every 4* to be Bishop or Polaris?  There's not really a middle ground for 4* -- if they're useful at all to 5* players then they're way overpowered at the 4* tier.

Polaris is really good for her tier but Bishop was just fine in 4* land. 5* land is what broke him. But R4G, Vulture, America, Coulson, Karnak, and Rogue are all 4* that are fine within their tier but still get 5* play. If OBW is considered a 2.5*, then there can also be 4* that can be considered 4.5* right?

You don’t even need to be considered 4.5 to be useful to 5* players. With Shang-Chi, we can officially add Valkyrie, Lokigator, and maybe Hulkbuster and Professor X to the list of 4*s that see some 5* play. Hound made a video of Valkyrie, Ultron, and Polaris taking out Apocalypse, Colossus, and Switch.  Entrailbucket tried to guide a forum to make Spinfinite an official name for SC, Sighclops, and Lokigator. So there is a middle ground. Thing is, by creating 9 black for 7 red Echo will probably fit in that middle ground somewhere. 

Vhailorx

entrailbucket said:

Vhailorx said:

Tony_Foot said:

Vhailorx said:

(Also, I continue to think that demi's determination to continue stuffing the 4* tier over-full is bad for the game.)

Yep imagine having to look at that wall of required iso. I don't even read them, I couldn't care less if they removed 2/3rds of them. Nothing but champ rewards at this point. In fact Wiccan was my Deadpool Spicy vault this week and I was shocked to see it was level 332. Somehow I've gathered 60 odd champ levels and I've never used him. Don't even know what he does. along with every other 4 star since about 3 years ago.

I look one up if I see someone say 'try Wiccan with the new five star because xyz'

Give the new players a chance, reduce iso to champ a 4* by half.

yup, for at least 3-4 years every new 4* had been either so OP as to be absolutely essential (stunner Bros, Polaris) or utterly superfluous except indicate as they make navigating the roster page incrementally harder. There is no middle ground with 4*s anymore; the tier is just too full.

I think the alternatives are all worse, from a player's perspective.

Barring a total rework of their monetization scheme, which is presumably off the table after 8 years, they *cannot ever* stop releasing new characters. 

Right now we get 4/5/4/5...if we want less 4*, they could go to 4/5/5/4/5/5, or they could just completely stop making 4* at all and go 5/5/5 every 2 weeks.

Another possibility is 6*, would we like it if the release order went 5/5/6?

It's definitely not an easy problem to fix. That is not really relevant to a player; we just play the game (or not if we don't like it) and it's the devs' job to make and keep the game fun and rewarding. So I don't see any problem as a player with identifying problems even if I don't also have the "right" solutions ready to go. The 4* tier is basically a waste of everyone's time right now insofar new entries are either completely unnecessary or eye-wateringly over-powered. I just don't see much value in a tier that makes up the majority of the game and gets a new character every month but has almost no effect on anyone's gameplay experience.

(and before pointing out how new 4*s are important for newer players building their 4* bench, I will point out that in the absence of new 4*s to collect, newer 4* players would just be collecting the old 4*s who fill all the same niches as the new 4*s.

Bad

Vhailorx said:

(and before pointing out how new 4*s are important for newer players building their 4* bench, I will point out that in the absence of new 4*s to collect, newer 4* players would just be collecting the old 4*s who fill all the same niches as the new 4*s.

Good job answering future replies.
Now, this character has damage reduction. Blob has jump in front and damage reduction too.
Ikaris has a lot of match increased damage. 
New 4*s show a reflection of modern 5* metas, so for a 4* player obviously getting that character gives him an edge over other players using olders 4*s, in the same way that new 5* works.
Shutting down 4* releases is like shutting down new characters for the most wide game playerbase.
Apart from killing how a gacha game works.

entrailbucket

Vhailorx said:

entrailbucket said:

Vhailorx said:

Tony_Foot said:

Vhailorx said:

(Also, I continue to think that demi's determination to continue stuffing the 4* tier over-full is bad for the game.)

Yep imagine having to look at that wall of required iso. I don't even read them, I couldn't care less if they removed 2/3rds of them. Nothing but champ rewards at this point. In fact Wiccan was my Deadpool Spicy vault this week and I was shocked to see it was level 332. Somehow I've gathered 60 odd champ levels and I've never used him. Don't even know what he does. along with every other 4 star since about 3 years ago.

I look one up if I see someone say 'try Wiccan with the new five star because xyz'

Give the new players a chance, reduce iso to champ a 4* by half.

yup, for at least 3-4 years every new 4* had been either so OP as to be absolutely essential (stunner Bros, Polaris) or utterly superfluous except indicate as they make navigating the roster page incrementally harder. There is no middle ground with 4*s anymore; the tier is just too full.

I think the alternatives are all worse, from a player's perspective.

Barring a total rework of their monetization scheme, which is presumably off the table after 8 years, they *cannot ever* stop releasing new characters. 

Right now we get 4/5/4/5...if we want less 4*, they could go to 4/5/5/4/5/5, or they could just completely stop making 4* at all and go 5/5/5 every 2 weeks.

Another possibility is 6*, would we like it if the release order went 5/5/6?

It's definitely not an easy problem to fix. That is not really relevant to a player; we just play the game (or not if we don't like it) and it's the devs' job to make and keep the game fun and rewarding. So I don't see any problem as a player with identifying problems even if I don't also have the "right" solutions ready to go. The 4* tier is basically a waste of everyone's time right now insofar new entries are either completely unnecessary or eye-wateringly over-powered. I just don't see much value in a tier that makes up the majority of the game and gets a new character every month but has almost no effect on anyone's gameplay experience.

(and before pointing out how new 4*s are important for newer players building their 4* bench, I will point out that in the absence of new 4*s to collect, newer 4* players would just be collecting the old 4*s who fill all the same niches as the new 4*s.

I guess it's not our job to identify specific solutions, but if the problem is not solvable then it's not worth talking about it at all.  If we can't come up with any solution that makes the situation better, then the problem is not solvable.

Like, it's a problem for players that they cannot ever stop releasing characters.  It means we have to keep expanding our rosters forever to keep up with essentials.  It means a new player has to acquire a ton of slots to actually play every node in every event.

But that problem cannot be fixed, short of making a new game, or having this game go out of business.  Both those solutions are bad.

Since they have to keep up with a pace of releases (this is their business model), the best we can do is talk about what *kinds* of releases would be best for us, as players...which is what I was after.

Bad

Also, the argument of newer players in the absence of new 4*s would just collect the olds 4*s is not valid.
In this way a new player would find a wall impossible to overcome, being this game running for 8 years. 
At least in each new release, all players start from zero, new players have a more easy time on their pvps, and they can grind for champing them on the events and start making their way.

Vhailorx

Bad said:

Also, the argument of newer players in the absence of new 4*s would just collect the olds 4*s is not valid.
In this way a new player would find a wall impossible to overcome, being this game running for 8 years. 
At least in each new release, all players start from zero, new players have a more easy time on their pvps, and they can grind for champing them on the events and start making their way.

Definitely true, as proven by the fact that no one ever builds out their 2* or 3* roster unless they started in 2015 or earlier. . .

Bad

2* or 3* characters are the easiests to obtain, while 4*s are extremely hard.
A new player cannot compete with vet players on a event featuring old 4*s as those vets will have them maxed without a doubt. 
Shutting down 4*s releases benefits vet players. And without new players hardly any game can run.

Vhailorx

Bad said:

2* or 3* characters are the easiests to obtain, while 4*s are extremely hard.
A new player cannot compete with vet players on a event featuring old 4*s as those vets will have them maxed without a doubt. 
Shutting down 4*s releases benefits vet players. And without new players hardly any game can run.

the thing that keeps newer 4* players from competing with vets is not that the vets have high-level 4* champs. It's that they have 5*s. Nor is it even clear to me that freezing the 4* tier would create a relatively larger advantage for vets than they currently enjoy. In any event, shutting down 4* releases would only be done in concert with other major changes to the game so it's hard to say who it would advantage or disadvantage; there are too many contingencies.

entrailbucket

I wouldn't mind them moving to a 4/5/5/4/5/5 cadence but I think that would make a lot of people very upset. 

I don't even want to think about what'd happen if they went to 5/5/5 only, or to 5/5/6.  It would be very ugly. 

So they're sort of stuck, unless they just decide to make the game they want to make and ignore the negative reaction.

Vhailorx

entrailbucket said:

I wouldn't mind them moving to a 4/5/5/4/5/5 cadence but I think that would make a lot of people very upset. 

I don't even want to think about what'd happen if they went to 5/5/5 only, or to 5/5/6.  It would be very ugly. 

So they're sort of stuck, unless they just decide to make the game they want to make and ignore the negative reaction.

I agree that demi is a bit trapped by the success of the 5* launch. I think the popularity of buy clubs and mega-whaling outstripped d3/demi's wildest dreams and has kept the game alive way past a normal mobile game lifespan, but it also makes further progress difficult. People spent SO MUCH money building those 550 rosters that they will riot if a 6* tier is released and obviates that investment.

I think the initial vision for supports was as a new end game chase item that would allow the devs to make 5*s more available and phase out 4*s faster while still leaving a prestige item for the whales and not undercutting their rosters. but that idea crashed and burned ~2.5 years ago and demi still hasn't moved to a plan B, not even something relatively straight forward like a prestige-leveling system.

entrailbucket

Vhailorx said:

entrailbucket said:

I wouldn't mind them moving to a 4/5/5/4/5/5 cadence but I think that would make a lot of people very upset. 

I don't even want to think about what'd happen if they went to 5/5/5 only, or to 5/5/6.  It would be very ugly. 

So they're sort of stuck, unless they just decide to make the game they want to make and ignore the negative reaction.

I agree that demi is a bit trapped by the success of the 5* launch. I think the popularity of buy clubs and mega-whaling outstripped d3/demi's wildest dreams and has kept the game alive way past a normal mobile game lifespan, but it also makes further progress difficult. People spent SO MUCH money building those 550 rosters that they will riot if a 6* tier is released and obviates that investment.

I think the initial vision for supports was as a new end game chase item that would allow the devs to make 5*s more available and phase out 4*s faster while still leaving a prestige item for the whales and not undercutting their rosters. but that idea crashed and burned ~2.5 years ago and demi still hasn't moved to a plan B, not even something relatively straight forward like a prestige-leveling system.

(This whole thing is probably going to get cut out of this thread because it's not specific to Echo anymore, but it's worthwhile discussion.  Sorry Mr Moderator.)

That WAS the situation a few years ago...it's a little bit different now because of the stagnation caused by the situation you're describing. 

The whales are basically gone today.  Some left after Gambit.  The rest left because there was nothing they could buy that would give them any advantage over free to play hoarders. 

What happened was the discovery that hoarders could get the best few characters fully maxed out while spending nothing.  Of course, a player who spent a ton could max out ALL the characters...but those characters are all absolutely awful in comparison to the best ones, so you'd never want to use them or buy them.  There was no advantage gained by spending.


So now the players who would riot if a change was made (and they absolutely would riot) are no longer 5-6 figure spenders -- they're just really loud, really invested long-term optimizers.

Does that change the devs' calculus?  Should it?  I know what my answer is...

HoundofShadow

They'll know once her hp store is up.

Sekilicious

entrailbucket said:

I wouldn't mind them moving to a 4/5/5/4/5/5 cadence but I think that would make a lot of people very upset. 

I don't even want to think about what'd happen if they went to 5/5/5 only, or to 5/5/6.  It would be very ugly. 

So they're sort of stuck, unless they just decide to make the game they want to make and ignore the negative reaction.

I would be fine with this but I think it would encourage hoarding in the F2P collectors as well as the player that want to be competitive. Or they might shift completely to the classics store since they would be virtually guaranteed to never cover a 5* while it is in LTs. Adding resources to meet the demand would screw with the economics of the game In all likelihood. 

They could also consider retiring non-popular, non-feeder characters all together to reduce both tiers. There are probably a number of non-feeder 4*s that only have a niche use, if any at all, that can be axed and eventually replaced, much like iHulk replaced Banner in 5*. They kind of quietly did this in both tiers, as older characters (and some newer) don’t have much of place in the 4* meta even when boosted even if they didn’t get the Yelena treatment. 

But it’s a gacha game so none of these ideas will likely be implemented. I’m not entirely sure that is a bad thing though I wouldn’t mind more resources added to help advance my own 4* roster. 

HoundofShadow

Retiring 4*/5* doesn't make sense from business point of view because the game's main source of income is HP and they are mainly used for roster slots.

Assuming a player has 300 roster slots filled up and the dev decided to retire 10 4*, the player will have 10 roster slots, enough for him to roster the next 10 new releases.

I think the best way to end MPQ is to simply let us celebrate the 10th anniversary, let all players play with max champed characters for one month and then shut down the game after that.