DO NOT UPDATE UNTIL COALITION EVENT IS OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larz70

Those who updated prior to the event should receive 1,000 crystals.
Those who did not update prior to the event should receive 2 ribbons.

Opperstamper

@Dodecapod there are 2 more player categories to consider that I can think of:

1. The bugged objective was in fact achievable by losing 5 creatures or more. So not all late-updaters are guaranteed at -4 of max score.
2. There are players that lost 4 ribbons naturally, both early- and late-updaters.

ArielSira

Larz70 said:

Those who updated prior to the event should receive 1,000 crystals.
Those who did not update prior to the event should receive 2 ribbons.

I agree with your suggestion but would like to change it to "prior to playing* the event". Without actually playing there was no bonus gain nor ribbon loss. I joined the event but didn't play until after the forced update (internal conflict!)

TheHunter

Opperstamper said:

@Dodecapod there are 2 more player categories to consider that I can think of:

1. The bugged objective was in fact achievable by losing 5 creatures or more. So not all late-updaters are guaranteed at -4 of max score.
2. There are players that lost 4 ribbons naturally, both early- and late-updaters.

Can I add another category. I updated so didn't get the 1000 crystals, messed up the first top node match and didn't hit all the bonus ribbons, and my team played terribly today and lost. It's a bit of a meh weekend so far, game wise. What compensation am I due? 

bk1234

Dodecapod said:

The whole situation is incredibly frustrating; as it stands (more context below; most here probably won't need it, but maybe it'll help as an eventual reference in case anyone comes along later lost as to what transpired), users are essentially: 

• (1) being punished for updating early, which the devs would presumably prefer most users do,
• (1a) being punished to some extent for being active in the community and working with the devs instead of against them, because those users are more likely than average to have known about and installed the update quickly for a variety of reasons,
• (2) being punished for updating late, because some users will have played the bottom node, missed the bugged objective, and still failed to benefit from the skewed progression rewards before the forced update came,
• (3) induced at least in some cases into a conflict of interest between individual goals (currency) and coalition ones (ribbons),
• (4) dealing with the fallout of being actively misled by an Oktagon employee about when the update would be forced, under circumstances which themselves create the impression of favoritism,
• (5) now in a position where any seemingly likely outcome going forward (e.g. grandfathering in the several hours of the event that have already happened and continuing as normal, rescinding all the skewed progression rewards without restarting the event, rescinding the rewards for some users but not others, such as only for those who have at least 1k crystals remaining after consuming currency, rolling back the entire game to before the event, etc.) will leave a nontrivial number of people with valid objections to the decision and its impact on them.

And all of this for a problem everyone, including the devs, saw coming from a mile away yesterday, and which they had more than enough time to handle proactively in a way that wouldn’t pit so many players against each other, their teams, or the devs themselves.

For context, this is my understanding of some of the key events involving this iteration of The Harvesttide:

1.  For several days prior to the event, The Harvesttide displayed unusually lucrative progression rewards (including, among other things, thousands of crystals), and Oktagon support indicated those rewards were erroneous and would be adjusted before the event began.
2.  Yesterday (less than 24 hours before the event began), several changes to the status of The Harvesttide occurred:

• (a) Externally, an Oktagon employee openly indicated to some players that an update would come later in the day, and that all users would be forced to install the update before the event.
• (b) Among other things, the update fixed a bugged objective (which players couldn't reasonably have known about before the event independently) and adjusted the progression rewards to be in line with most other events.
• (c) Some users were forced to update before the event, whereas others were not, contradicting the assurances of the Oktagon employee and creating disparate event experiences for different cohorts of players in The Harvesttide.
• (d) For users who didn't update immediately, the inflated progression rewards remained accessible for part of the event, at the cost of being unable to complete the bottom node objective that the update fixed.

3.  Currently, the update has been forced several hours after the event began; I believe the most notable attainable inflated progression tier would have been 1,000 crystals for players who didn't update immediately, and those players will have maximum scores up to 4 ribbons less than the nominal maximum at the end of the event.

In cases where users were both aware of the situation and had a choice to update or not, this set of circumstances created a conflict of interest in multiple ways; updating would be consistent with the intentions the devs communicated on the forums and at least one other external platform multiple times, with some reasonable conceptions of competitive integrity, and with maximizing coalition ribbons, at a substantial cost to individual rewards and a substantial risk of incurring a long-term competitive disadvantage, whereas not updating would be consistent with maximizing individual rewards and with preserving long-term competitive standing, at the cost of the devs' intentions, competitive integrity, and coalition ribbons.  Additionally, individual intent would seem to be difficult for the devs to effectively discern (and therefore to act upon) on a widespread basis even if they'd want to and could do so fairly (which naturally in itself is arguable), because a host of other factors could realistically influence outcomes in either direction as far as the timing of installing v5.2.2 before or after playing The Harvesttide.

Now, there seems to be no obvious solution going forward which will simultaneously (a) be consistent with a reasonable, intuitive understanding of fairness to all players and competitive integrity both for The Harvesttide in isolation and for the broader long-term implications of the event on the in-game economy, and (b) clearly communicate via actions to virtually all players (including those who followed the situation closely and those who didn't, and including those who updated before playing the event and those who updated after) that their time, money, loyalty, and interest in the game are valued and respected, and that most widespread player concerns resulting from the devs' mistakes will be honored by the eventual resolution to this situation.

For what it's worth, thanks to Oktagon for the attempts to communicate and resolve confusion on the forums beforehand, since that always helps in principle, but unfortunately the execution of the update in this instance directly contradicted that communication and therefore had the opposite effect (to a degree which outweighs the clarity expressed in advance), and while I hope to be proven wrong about any misgivings at this stage, I can't help but harbor concerns that when all is said and done, there's a meaningful risk that neither consistency nor player satisfaction will be clearly upheld as the foremost priority, not only that it might prove difficult to meet both of those standards simultaneously.

With all of that said though, good luck to all players with making the most of this event and with whatever happens in the end, and to Oktagon and D3Go with resolving any ongoing issues and inconsistencies with The Harvesttide, as unenviable a task as all of that may seem to be for the moment for anyone attempting to make sense of the fallout.

I think the only thing I would add to this is a better use of the Inbox than telling me to get VIP (which I have) or to join a coalition (which I lead) would be to tell me to update — as like most of the players in this game, I haven’t had a push update in over a year. Luckily for my coalition, I’m the forum mod. 30,000 other coalitions don’t have that benefit. 

Persil

Dodecapod said:

(...)

There was a way around the conflict of interest. There may have been some who played only the top node before update, got 1000 Gold, then updated and played bottom for full score.

And definitely agree with most of your conclusions, if not all. The issue will be tough to solve, and whatever is done, there will be group(s) which will be frustrated. A huge image problem for the game.

Let's face it, with current bug-solving politics, this sort of problem (although not necessarily this exact one) was only a matter of time. The number of bugs increases regularly, less than more are being solved, many serious ones don't get addresses at all, and some bug fixes cause even more bugs.

Everyone makes mistakes - so the team should not be blamed for initially putting the wrong rewards. However, said so, everything which came afterwards was a huge misunderstanding and here the community has the right to feel frustrated, namely beacuse of:
1) the decision to lower the rewards (as people compared, is as taking away the carrot)
2) not taking enough care with the update and forcing it, which caused even more damage

ApexMatrix

I just wanted to add that a lot of players in my coalition spent all their crystals in anticipation of the rewards from the event. They otherwise would not have spent them and they are not happy about it.

I know in the past, the Halloween events have given large rewards so when I saw the rewards, I thought it was legit. I encouraged my coalition to participate to get the rewards which gave legitimacy to rewards since I'm the veteran player and leader of my coalition. So that sucks. I unintentionally steered my coalition wrong.

Does anyone remember what the rewards were last year for the Halloween events? There were multiple Halloween events if I remember correctly and had high payouts.

Machine

Larz70 said:

Those who updated prior to the event should receive 1,000 crystals.
Those who did not update prior to the event should receive 2 ribbons.

I can't remember any case in which ribbons were awarded after or during events. So I don't think this will happen. I very much agree with your first point: we were requested to update the game / install the new patch before the event started, which most of us did because we are good people. In my case, I never ever install a new update until the game asks me to, because I'm not in a hurry to play the latest patch. But this time I did and we all know what that means. No 1000 crystals reward. Yes, it is a mistake by the devs, but that doesn't mean it's fair to the people who listened and updated the game prior to the start of the event. It's not just the rewards; also Oktagon's credibility is at stake here. I think 1000 crystals compensation for people that updated PRIOR to the start of the event is the only right thing to do. Like mentioned above, it won't impact the game economy too much, it retains Oktagon's credibility and it doesn't make players feel like they have been punished for updating the game / adhering to Oktagon's request.

madwren

critman said:

For me, this is the biggest thing to come out of this whole affair. To learn that employees are chumming up with players in one particular group who are in direct competition for resources with other groups in the game does not sit well with me at all.

It's been suggested to me by an insider that the best way of solving this problem would be to get a representative from Oktagon/D3 in the Discord of every different player group, but I couldn't agree less. I shouldn't have to sacrifice my privacy for representation.

I'd like to get people's opinions on this, whether they're a member of the in-group, or one of the other player groups which Oktagon/D3 obviously consider less important, and I would certainly like Oktagon/D3 to make a statement about this.

It does seem oddly advantageous for one community to have representation while others do not.  It would make sense for Oktagon to have their own dedicated "official" Discord, as is often done in other games as well. Then they only need to post updates on the forum and their official Discord, which ensures that no group is inordinately advantaged or disadvantaged. 

Edhmage

This is a crazy situation for sure, but as we've seen in the past when things go wrong or are erroneously available for the players then there have been times when the erroneous rewards were just removed before too many were redeemed.

But in this situation if some were forced to update thus losing out on potential rewards of an erroneous nature and others were "allowed" to not update and thus continue progression to achieve those erroneous rewards.

Then there would seem to be a non-zero amount of not only blatant favoritism but also collusion to allow the members of that coalition to unduly benefit from that inside connection.

Bil

I don't think the "good sportsmanship" concept Can apply to a litigious situation beetween the playerbase and the development team, which isn't involved in the "sport" side of the game at all.This is particularly true, i think, when the Root of the litigation lies in a developement mistake.

However, the Collins dictionary defines sportsmanship as "behaviour and attitudes that show respect for the rules of a game and for the other players."
In that perspective, what could be Seen as "Bad sportsmanship" is actually the way rewards were changed in the last minute without any form of transparency (a previous Inbox message for example).

Of course, the move was understandable from a commercial perspective, and a reasonable player won't keep any grief about it ... but it can't feel fair from a sportsman perspective.

In any case, no player should ever feel guilty about - not installing an unanouced update which main purpose was to reduce event Prizes that were (unlike the update) anounced since the beginning -

    On the collusion topic ... I think it would be wise (and also more respectful for the aformentionned Insider and group of player) to avoid hasty judgements on the benefits provided by this so-called collusion.
    In this particular case, as far as i have understood, being aware of the data push led players to "loose" the oportunity to gather more ressources. The Insider was just defending oktagon's interest ... As expected from an employee.
   In the meantime, the "group of players" (part of it at least) willingly decided to update Even if it meant loosing ressources. They choose to place their ethic above their personal interest, which is not only a proof of good sportsmanship (refusing to exploit a flaw to get an advantage on other players) but Also a proof of good customership.

Of course, it's an awkward situation that may deserve to be discussed from an ethic point of view, but there's no petty accusation to be made here and none should feel guilty of his behaviour here neither IMHO.

Volrak

Schmara said:

the apparent collusion between the developers and a particular player group

Before the myth gets spun too far out of control, here are some facts:

• The first and only time that in-advance game information has been provided by Oktagon staff to the members of [redacted bk] discord server was regarding the update immediately prior to this weekend's event.

• The impact of that is a potential net detriment (pending resolution of the rewards bug, in the context that [redacted bk] clear policy is to avoid exploiting bugs).

Anyone can confirm the above, because anyone is able to be a guest in the [redacted bk] discord server and look at the comment history.

It's for Oktagon to decide, but my hope is that going forward they may take the decision do things in a way that can't be perceived as favouritism.

So there has been no special benefit; there's in fact been a potential special detriment; and we can hope, request, and possibly even expect, that there will never be such a benefit.

Volrak

critman said:

I think you are very, very harsh to judge the behaviour new players who lack our experience as "taking advantage" and "not very sportsmen like".

Anyone who knowingly and deliberately did what they could to try to take advantage of the bug would seem to be in an entirely different class to those who received the wrong rewards unwittingly, whether because they are new players and didn't understand the reward structure, or are established players who didn't look at the rewards in advance and weren't aware of the problem.  I don't see any way those latter groups can be reasonably characterised as unsportsmanlike, and nor have I seen anyone try to do that.

Volrak

Schmara said:

I think we are all quite clear that there were NO BENEFITS provided by the collusion in this particular instance. That’s easily understood. 

I’m just wondering if there were any prior instances that did provide benefits or of there will be future instances that may provide benefits. I don’t think this is disrespectful to ask… at least not any more disrespectful then the apparent collusion in general.

I do appreciate your concerns about a lack of civility… but again, I don’t think it’s rude to ask “how long has this been going on?” and “will it continue?” I don’t want to place too much importance on a silly phone game but… a lot of people try very hard and do act in good faith and it’s disheartening to think that D3Go/Oktagon and their emissary would show, at best, shockingly poor judgement that had the potential to give one group of players an unfair advantage and, at worst, blatant favoritism and, well, collusion.

No, it's not rude to ask.  The answer remains the same.  The notification of the update prior to this weekend's event was the first and only time in-advance game information was provided to [redacted bk] discord by Oktagon staff.  While only Oktagon can decide how they interact, I certainly hope that it's the last time [redacted bk] gets information prior to other groups - not because I don't want Oktagon to engage with the community, but because, as this thread amply demonstrates, the community has a great deal of sensitivity to perceptions of favouritism.

Volrak

Schmara said:

With all possible respect @Volrak it’s clear that it’s not just the perception of favoritism. Information was provided by an employee in advance. Just because it didn’t help doesn’t mean that it was fair and above reproach. 

That kind of reasoning might possibly be why, having happened once, we don't wish it to happen a second time.

It would certainly raise questions in the reverse direction, hopefully equally politely if not more so, had the scenario been reversed.

Scrounger

Lots of thoughts about this, but it's late and I'm tired. So here's just a few:

@Larz70 proposed a solution where players who didn't update receive 1,000 gold and players who did update receive 2 more ribbons.

This is not a perfect solution (as @Opperstamper observed there are other groups, including people who would have lost the ribbons naturally even if they had updated; people who did not update but did not lose 2 ribbons on the bottom node; and so on). But it's frankly hard to imagine a perfect solution to a mess that was ultimately entirely created by the developers. I think @Larz70's solution is pretty good.

But I've got an important edit to this solution. The 1,000 gold was for people in platinum. In bronze, the gold reward for reaching 10 ribbons was 500 gold. I don't know what it was for silver and gold tiers (probably less than 1,000 for silver and perhaps 1,000 for gold). I think the developers should vary the amount of gold compensation based on the tier of the player.

I get that designing and implementing a new set and event is hard work, and there will sometimes be bugs. But there were a series of missteps made by the developers, including expecting that an update at the 11th hour would work. Not surprisingly, it didn't. Many players are not on coalitions with an external means of communication (discord, slack, etc.) -- let alone an active and informed means of external communication; even players that were on active coalitions did not know about the update (some players did, but certainly not all; some people on competitive coalitions use discord sparingly). The developers should have just cancelled this event and run something else. Believing that an 11th hour update would solve the problem was extremely poor judgment, and that poor judgment was compounded because it was already following other errors made by the developers (having the wrong rewards, having a buggy bottom node, etc.).

Players should not be punished for these series of errors made by the developers. Something along the lines of what @Larz70 proposed is what should happen. It's not perfect, but it's more fair than any other idea I've heard.

Volrak

Julie71 said:

I can definitely see your point about new players.
as for [redacted bk] group.   if our discord was an exclusive club I could see your point but we are not.  we are open to the public.  I encourage anyone to come join the server.  

That's definitely true, guests are welcome in [redacted bk] Discord, but at the same time I know how I'd feel if the "solution" to early access to game info from Oktagon staff was to join another alliance's server and hang out there.

Enigma

Scrounger said:

Lots of thoughts about this, but it's late and I'm tired. So here's just a few:

@Larz70 proposed a solution where players who didn't update receive 1,000 gold and players who did update receive 2 more ribbons.

This is not a perfect solution (as @Opperstamper observed there are other groups, including people who would have lost the ribbons naturally even if they had updated; people who did not update but did not lose 2 ribbons on the bottom node; and so on). But it's frankly hard to imagine a perfect solution to a mess that was ultimately entirely created by the developers. I think @Larz70's solution is pretty good.

But I've got an important edit to this solution. The 1,000 gold was for people in platinum. In bronze, the gold reward for reaching 10 ribbons was 500 gold. I don't know what it was for silver and gold tiers (probably less than 1,000 for silver and perhaps 1,000 for gold). I think the developers should vary the amount of gold compensation based on the tier of the player.

My guess is that there will be a complimentary mythic for everyone, maybe a pack or something, plus an apology and that'll be it. everyone gets the same compensation, no one is unfairly rewarded, and it would save them the hassle of figuring out who did what and when, especially post-event.

Bil

Schmara said:

Julie71 said
…I encourage everyone to join…

“Our discord is public” is the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen you type in a long time.

You’ve driven most people away with your terrible behavior and bad attitudes. The fact that you have to resort to “come look—we get early access to secrets from the devs!” in an attempt to get people to talk to you is delightful. People don’t like hanging out in toxic environments. 

[redacted bk] discord is public (although we don’t allow jerks) and we had a great time correcting each other’s grammar and doing math at each other and didn’t get too bent out of shape about the mistake by the devs. Devs make mistakes a lot—we’re used to it. 

We are bent out of shape about the collusion though. 

That might sound a bit pasionate coming from someone that was just "asking" about the collusion in the first place. 

I have no Idea about what happened beetween you in the past but i feel like this IS more about personal feelings than an attempt to build a constructive debate on the initial topic.

Anyways, as you mentionned, "public" doesnt mean everyone should Always agree on the way things are handled.

Bil

Assuming that i'm defending teammates here is erroneous ... I'm actually playing in a non-competitive coalition and i never had the occasion to play or even have a chat with Julie71 nor received any directive about updating or not in the "Harvesttide gate". (  I must confess i rarely take a look at the aformentionned discord though).

I'm not trying to take any side here, but since a few days i can't Help thinking that the several guilt-creating statements in this whole thread are not going to Make anyone feel better about a situation that IS already unpleasant for the whole (or most of the?) community.