**** Mantis (Guardians of the Galaxy) ****

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  • IceIX
    IceIX ADMINISTRATORS Posts: 3,787 Site Admin
    Updated the spoiler-free to the character you already mostly guessed, Mantis!
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 6,209 Chairperson of the Boards
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 488 Mover and Shaker
    edited June 2021
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her, but I guess more tools in the tool box is a good thing.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 6,209 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her
    Likewise I have no issue with Polaris. I Champed Morbius because he is fun but I haven't really used him much.

    Guess we need to hear feedback from the 4* tier.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,475 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2021
    Hm...anytime somebody is explicitly dropping stuff on Purple I want to bring G4mora along. It makes me wonder if there isn't a good Deadliest Woman kill squad out there; maybe Carbage/Mantis/G4mora? 

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her
    Likewise I have no issue with Polaris. I Champed Morbius because he is fun but I haven't really used him much.

    Guess we need to hear feedback from the 4* tier.
    I think the problem is that you can use her on offense and still beat all the current "counters." They need to make a character that Polaris can't beat in order to create a rock/paper/scissors meta.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 945 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her
    Likewise I have no issue with Polaris. I Champed Morbius because he is fun but I haven't really used him much.

    Guess we need to hear feedback from the 4* tier.
    I think the problem is that you can use her on offense and still beat all the current "counters." They need to make a character that Polaris can't beat in order to create a rock/paper/scissors meta.
    Glass cannons, such as Polaris, are the best possible outcome for PVP diversity. What you are describing is a rock/scissors/scissors scenario. 

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,475 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't feel like what this game wants are characters that are literally unbeatable by certain other characters. I think you need the matchups to be offensively trivial or offensively punishing, but since it takes so long to build a specific chacter on purpose in this game I think it's unreasonable to have just a complete binary scenario there.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her
    Likewise I have no issue with Polaris. I Champed Morbius because he is fun but I haven't really used him much.

    Guess we need to hear feedback from the 4* tier.
    I think the problem is that you can use her on offense and still beat all the current "counters." They need to make a character that Polaris can't beat in order to create a rock/paper/scissors meta.
    Glass cannons, such as Polaris, are the best possible outcome for PVP diversity. What you are describing is a rock/scissors/scissors scenario. 

    If I can just throw rock every single time and win anyway, how is that rock/paper/scissors?
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 1,874 Chairperson of the Boards
    Perhaps the reason polaris has right now so many counters is because more characters supporting her are coming in the future. Still carnage and colossus give special tiles to enemy and it could be a solid trio. Perhaps more characters giving special tiles to enemy are coming too.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 945 Critical Contributor
    jp1 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    I kind of like Mantis (I infer) as an option to counter the Polaris meta. I don’t see a lot of Morbius in my retals so who knows how popular she will be. After all, speed is still the main driver of meta characters and Mantis simply delays, hopefully allowing you to kill off the opponents Polaris before becoming a problem. She might be a good third to Karnak/Chavez perhaps. Maybe she will do well with Gamora in Pick 2. 
    This is now 2 specific Polaris counters released. If neither do their job then I might be a little concerned for Polaris. We won't know for a bit if either filter through as regular use on teams.
    I can only speak for myself, but for me morbius is already dong the job and I didn't need another counter for her.  I didn't really have any problem with her before morbius since as a 5 star player even 370 Polaris goes down pretty quick.  But with morbius as a tool against her she went from mildly annoying to trivial. Maybe 4 star players need more tools, but from what I've heard from 4 star players it sounded like medusa, sabretooth, and morbius already provided a lot of options against her
    Likewise I have no issue with Polaris. I Champed Morbius because he is fun but I haven't really used him much.

    Guess we need to hear feedback from the 4* tier.
    I think the problem is that you can use her on offense and still beat all the current "counters." They need to make a character that Polaris can't beat in order to create a rock/paper/scissors meta.
    Glass cannons, such as Polaris, are the best possible outcome for PVP diversity. What you are describing is a rock/scissors/scissors scenario. 

    If I can just throw rock every single time and win anyway, how is that rock/paper/scissors?
    Because, I can beat your “rock” Polaris easily when she is out on defense. That is when I’m throwing “paper”. 

    If there is someone that counters Polaris whom she also cannot beat, that just nullifies her completely. It doesn’t add diversity to the game.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    It doesn't nullify her at all, it just means she can't win every single fight against every single team.  You'd have to put her on the bench when fighting one specific character, and you could use her again when fighting anyone else.  That's how you actually achieve diversity.  Otherwise why would you ever bench Polaris?
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 945 Critical Contributor
    It doesn't nullify her at all, it just means she can't win every single fight against every single team.  You'd have to put her on the bench when fighting one specific character, and you could use her again when fighting anyone else.  That's how you actually achieve diversity.  Otherwise why would you ever bench Polaris?
    Ideally you wouldn’t bench any character. 

    The idea is they are strong on offense, yet beatable on defense. You can play Polaris for all the wins you like, I can retaliate for the same, etc…
    If I have a character that completely shuts down the offensive Meta it discourages shielding, reduces health pack usage, limits the Meta to that single team, all that good stuff. Why would they want to do that?
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,144 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2021
    It doesn't nullify her at all, it just means she can't win every single fight against every single team.  You'd have to put her on the bench when fighting one specific character, and you could use her again when fighting anyone else.  That's how you actually achieve diversity.  Otherwise why would you ever bench Polaris?
    I suppose a 5* player might have trouble understanding the nuances of the 4* meta. I bench my Polaris every time the opponent’s is paired with Medusa now. I would if paired with Morbius as well, as Karnak/Chavez eat those alive quite easily.  I only slightly worry about unlucky cascades, but those can be devastating with most opponents. The only opponents that might need to be skipped in 4* are boosted 5* characters, due to obscene health and potential cascades. Maybe this is why I have been seeing more Polaris/Juggernaut teams in retals lately. 

    There may be players that never bench Polaris and just skip more. You can also win Rock/Paper/Scissors playing only rock if you could just skip paper.  It often only takes a couple to find a team that is easy to beat, whether they are using Polaris or not. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 7,475 Chairperson of the Boards
    If you take a step back and think about the TEAM being the rock, paper, or scissors rather than the individual character it may change the perspective. Polaris/4ocket is a very different team from BRB/Polaris. Even though one of the core building blocks of both teams are shared, in one she is the fire while 4ocket is the accelerant and then she takes the opposite role in the BRB team. It's rarely a single character who is ruining things alone, it's usually an over-powered interaction. OG Gambit and Bishop were one man wrecking crews, but Polaris needs a partner to get moving as does Kitty. 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 1,863 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    It doesn't nullify her at all, it just means she can't win every single fight against every single team.  You'd have to put her on the bench when fighting one specific character, and you could use her again when fighting anyone else.  That's how you actually achieve diversity.  Otherwise why would you ever bench Polaris?
    Ideally you wouldn’t bench any character. 

    The idea is they are strong on offense, yet beatable on defense. You can play Polaris for all the wins you like, I can retaliate for the same, etc…
    If I have a character that completely shuts down the offensive Meta it discourages shielding, reduces health pack usage, limits the Meta to that single team, all that good stuff. Why would they want to do that?
    Because the guy who counters Polaris would, in turn, be vulnerable to some other team.  I don't see how providing effective defensive counters causes any of that parade of horribles.  It would encourage people to diversify their roster and force them to use multiple teams to fight other teams.

    A glass cannon meta like you describe is great for people who think everyone should be able to earn every reward, and those who try hardest should get the most rewards.  We had this during the cupcake meta, we had it during the sentry meta, and the devs decided that was not how they wanted the game to work.  Roster strength, diversity, and strategy has to factor into the equation somehow.
  • TheEyeDoctorsWife
    TheEyeDoctorsWife Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    Someone explain the fallacy of my thinking : First move Carnage adds enemy specials , next turn Kitty destroys 1, next turn 4 turn stun by New. Repeat infinite. Enemy  Stunlocked in 5 turns . 
    Kitty doesn't destroy enemy tiles, she overwrites them.
    Also, they stun a random enemy… no guarantee all 3 will be stunned, even if you keep matching enemy specials.   
    I was wondering about that , the possibility it keeps stunning the same character over and over and allowing the other 2 to remain active . Seems like a dynamic that would defeat it’s own purpose. Gamora always stuns a random enemy that is still active in her second random stun . I was hoping it followed the same logic .
    It might. We just don’t know yet.
    I think we now know . With the wording “ if the target is already stunned do damage instead “.  So it is possible that only 1 stunned character be repeatedly targeted to stun while other active characters remain . Unless this only applies when all 3 targets are stunned .
  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 1,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2021
    Now that the numbers are up we can see her Purple will hit quite hard against an already stunned opponent (6100 when champed). It also means the 1 turn stun (at 5 covers) will obviously hit already stunned characters so there is a reasonable chance you won't stun the enemy Polaris until you match quite a few specials and manage to have the CD's resolve. As someone who uses Polaris/Grocket on offense, she won't really scare me since her low health means she can be killed on turn 2-3 in most matches.
    I still don't get the reason you ever want to use her Green. Yes, you get an initial 3 turn stun (5 covers) but if the CD/repeater goes off, you give an enemy a free heal (along with the stun) and if the CD/repeater gets matched your Mantis gets stunned and damaged. Not such a great power so I think that 3 covers max and hope you have a better Green outlet.
    In Shield Training Valkyrie won't be useful since her strongest color is a passive so it will be 4/5* Carnage as your 3rd character and match those enemy specials for stuns and damage.
    Now for the really important question. Is there anyone obvious that she could feed?
    KGB
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 6,209 Chairperson of the Boards
    We should drag this back on topic. Is Mantis a must have or not?
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 772 Critical Contributor
    KGB said:
    Now that the numbers are up we can see her Purple will hit quite hard against an already stunned opponent (6100 when champed). It also means the 1 turn stun (at 5 covers) will obviously hit already stunned characters so there is a reasonable chance you won't stun the enemy Polaris until you match quite a few specials and manage to have the CD's resolve. As someone who uses Polaris/Grocket on offense, she won't really scare me since her low health means she can be killed on turn 2-3 in most matches.
    I still don't get the reason you ever want to use her Green. Yes, you get an initial 3 turn stun (5 covers) but if the CD/repeater goes off, you give an enemy a free heal (along with the stun) and if the CD/repeater gets matched your Mantis gets stunned and damaged. Not such a great power so I think that 3 covers max and hope you have a better Green outlet.
    In Shield Training Valkyrie won't be useful since her strongest color is a passive so it will be 4/5* Carnage as your 3rd character and match those enemy specials for stuns and damage.
    Now for the really important question. Is there anyone obvious that she could feed?
    KGB
    I mean the most natural feed would be Starlord but he is already fed.