Is there a name for those easy teams in PVP when you hit 800 or so?

KGB

DAZ0273 said:

There is no way that you would be #5 in an entire slice with that low of a score, so I think some terms are being mixed up.

Float point - this is the points tally that you can reach where your unshielded team is not getting constantly hit. This is determined both by the defensive strength of your team as a "scarecrow" and also what level of points have been injected in to the slice and how active it is. Normally, if you get hit more than once it is a sign that your team has now reached a points tally where MMR has opened up and your team is visible to potentially stronger rosters who can attack you at will - it is time to shield! However, if you are able to work out your average "float point" - the points tally where you can reach and not shield and not get battered, you can use this as a staging point in your climb, queue up targets with good points and prepare to push in your next session.

Tanglefoot is a new player (3* roster). I suspect he's still only playing in CL4 or CL5 for PvP so a score of 628 may well be T10 there because high level rosters won't slum down in PvP because there is no reason to do so because the placement rewards are so low compared to a T100 in CL10.

One other thing to note about float point is that it changes (gets higher) as the event nears completion and scores get higher. For my low 300s 4* team early in the event it's around 575 but late in the event it's around 800.

KGB

DAZ0273

KGB said:

DAZ0273 said:

There is no way that you would be #5 in an entire slice with that low of a score, so I think some terms are being mixed up.

Float point - this is the points tally that you can reach where your unshielded team is not getting constantly hit. This is determined both by the defensive strength of your team as a "scarecrow" and also what level of points have been injected in to the slice and how active it is. Normally, if you get hit more than once it is a sign that your team has now reached a points tally where MMR has opened up and your team is visible to potentially stronger rosters who can attack you at will - it is time to shield! However, if you are able to work out your average "float point" - the points tally where you can reach and not shield and not get battered, you can use this as a staging point in your climb, queue up targets with good points and prepare to push in your next session.

Tanglefoot is a new player (3* roster). I suspect he's still only playing in CL4 or CL5 for PvP so a score of 628 may well be T10 there because high level rosters won't slum down in PvP because there is no reason to do so because the placement rewards are so low compared to a T100 in CL10.

One other thing to note about float point is that it changes (gets higher) as the event nears completion and scores get higher. For my low 300s 4* team early in the event it's around 575 but late in the event it's around 800.

KGB

Yeah that is what I mean about him getting terms confused - I think he meant #5 in whatever SCL his bracket is/was (totally possible) rather than #5 in the entire slice of (potentially) thousands of players.

HoundofShadow

The reason why it's not easy to help him is because he's not being precise about when he enters the slice, how much time is left when he hits x point etc. As long as he doesn't provide these information, the number of possibilities of why he's facing such issue will be a lot.

For example, if you enter a slice and play 6 hours after it started, you can be #5 or #1 with 600-800 points. When he said he's #5 with 628 points, I suspect he was telling us his current position as of that posting. 

Also, I think he can't remember the difference between a red and yellow node. He keep saying that he sees multiple covered 5* (and even fully covered 5*) and champed 4* in his queue. My bet is that he climbed too high too fast and he ends up in the queue of those champed 4* players. A lot of those players attacked him because he got a lot of points at that particular point in time, so he got a lot of red nodes from these players. If he got 9 retaliations,  he needs to skip 9 times. Because he skip only thrice sometimes, that explain why he's still seeing champed 4* in his queue. That also explains why he has to skip up to 15 times before seeing a normal opponent. It's because he has too many retaliation nodes.

KGB

HoundofShadow said:

Also, I think he can't remember the difference between a red and yellow node. He keep saying that he sees multiple covered 5* (and even fully covered 5*) and champed 4* in his queue. My bet is that he climbed too high too fast and he ends up in the queue of those champed 4* players. A lot of those players attacked him because he got a lot of points at that particular point in time, so he got a lot of red nodes from these players. If he got 9 retaliations,  he needs to skip 9 times. Because he skip only thrice sometimes, that explain why he's still seeing champed 4* in his queue. That also explains why he has to skip up to 15 times before seeing a normal opponent. It's because he has too many retaliation nodes.

You might be right about yellow/red node confusion.

On the other hand if you enter early (and I typically do because I need to play 1 PvP battle per day for my daily quest) you can often run out of viable opponents if you climb too high. For example if I enter on day 1 of a 3 day PvP, I can climb easily to 575 with my L300ish 4* team beating opponents around my level (ie up to L400ish). But at that point I am typically T10 or higher in my CL10 bracket. It seems that the top points in the entire PvP across all brackets in my slice (always 5) can't be much higher because the game constantly feeds me teams WAY stronger (like L400+ 5* teams) than I can realistically handle and they are all only worth 30ish points (even if I skip 30-50 times). That's the point where I stop playing and wait for retals, When I come back 24 hrs later I have plenty of retals including ones from dual 550 5* so I know I've broken MMR at 575 on day 1. But by day 2 I can go as high as 900+ easily before I start running out of viable opponents.

So he could be seeing what I am seeing in that he's run out of viable opponents for his score if he enters on day 1.

KGB

entrailbucket

I can definitely see how PvP would be a very frustrating experience for newer players.  (Honestly, it always has been.)  So many of the important mechanics are completely non-obvious, and it seems like us veterans might not be doing a great job of "onboarding" newer folks these days.

There's a lot of good information in this thread though, so maybe this is a start!

DAZ0273

KGB said:

HoundofShadow said:

Also, I think he can't remember the difference between a red and yellow node. He keep saying that he sees multiple covered 5* (and even fully covered 5*) and champed 4* in his queue. My bet is that he climbed too high too fast and he ends up in the queue of those champed 4* players. A lot of those players attacked him because he got a lot of points at that particular point in time, so he got a lot of red nodes from these players. If he got 9 retaliations,  he needs to skip 9 times. Because he skip only thrice sometimes, that explain why he's still seeing champed 4* in his queue. That also explains why he has to skip up to 15 times before seeing a normal opponent. It's because he has too many retaliation nodes.

You might be right about yellow/red node confusion.

On the other hand if you enter early (and I typically do because I need to play 1 PvP battle per day for my daily quest) you can often run out of viable opponents if you climb too high. For example if I enter on day 1 of a 3 day PvP, I can climb easily to 575 with my L300ish 4* team beating opponents around my level (ie up to L400ish). But at that point I am typically T10 or higher in my CL10 bracket. It seems that the top points in the entire PvP across all brackets in my slice (always 5) can't be much higher because the game constantly feeds me teams WAY stronger (like L400+ 5* teams) than I can realistically handle and they are all only worth 30ish points (even if I skip 30-50 times). That's the point where I stop playing and wait for retals, When I come back 24 hrs later I have plenty of retals including ones from dual 550 5* so I know I've broken MMR at 575 on day 1. But by day 2 I can go as high as 900+ easily before I start running out of viable opponents.

So he could be seeing what I am seeing in that he's run out of viable opponents for his score if he enters on day 1.

KGB

Yeah that would explain the multiple high level opponents in his queues. Where the problem is I think that where you are playing to reach a set point score, he is playing for placement. It sounds like he is also front running with a 3* team. He is staying out unshielded beyond his MMR break point and so gets knocked down, fights his way back up to get knocked down again. However he is being hit multiple times first when he goes past his float point and then by the late climbers as he is staying out unshielded trying to make up points for placement. However he is actually  losing his placement too because he has no chance of beating another team that isn't weaker than his faster than multiple players can smash him, especially at event end.

So Hound is right - if we had a bit more information then we could try and explain a bit more why but it sounds like a combination of things.

Tanglefoot

1. Slice - looks like I used incorrect terminology. My PvP screen says I ended at the last PvP event at #2 with 728 points. Sounds like you are saying that would be my "bracket" within the time slice which ended at 10pm Central time US. My Teenage Riot PvP bracket score shows #39 at 499points with 26 wins after just taking 10 losses - by counting red retaliation nodes. 

FWIW, other than Kamala Khan, the 3 available new "AI match" nodes show the following available enemies
a 5* level 367 full color Dr Strange
a 5* level 345 full color Yellowjacket

a 5* level 372 Heimdall with blue and red covers
a 4* level 342 full color America Chavez

a 5* level 375 full color Colossus
a 5* level 367 full color Scarlett Witch

those are all absolutely unwinnable matches but pretty light for what I normally see - I mean, to see NO enemies over level 400 is pretty rare. My MMR puzzlement is, if I just took 10 straight losses, why is the AI giving me more unwinnable matches? I don't expect cakewalks, but if you make that Colossus a level 317 2 color cover, and find a Scarlet Witch closer to level 320 with NO green covers, I am going for it...

2. Yes. I have tended to hit PvPs hard to get the Mighty Token at 19 wins within the first day of a new PvP. In SCL 6, this usually put me top 5 in my bracket with 500+ points, which sounds like puts me in the PvP match-list for those stronger players. I usually then coast for a bit, but jump back into the PvP often enough to not fall out of the top 30-35. It sounds like anything in this "top 30" range is probably matching me against players with beastly rosters.

I have usually tried to end near 50 PvP wins for the win rewards. 75 if the timing is not crazy and I have the health packs. That usually meant I was around #20-30 with 2-3 hours left in my bracket. If I really like the rewards I would try to surge nearer the top and drop a shield if I was able to get a decent ranking - riding for a top 5 or top 10 slot. If the top reward is a cover for Mysterio (for instance) I might not mind so much losing 120 points in "the 3 minute pound" and still coming in at #8 in my bracket, since I still got the Heroic token and other rewards. I am so solidly in 3* land that I only have roster slots for the best 4*s, not every one I get.

But all of that depends on the SCL.

in SCL7 for this PvP. And 0% chance I will finish anywhere near the top 10 at this SCL, so will not worry as much since I already know I am not getting a heroic token out of the level rewards - this one is ALL about win progression). Are the SCL 7 progression awards ENOUGH better than SCL 6 rewards that they make up for the fact I will be getting less end rewards (fewer tokens, less HP, less ISO and fewer shards from end-rewards)? especially if I could not care less about Nightcrawler - do not expect to be rostering him since I have no open slots...

3. Yellow nodes are nodes the AI picked for me. Red Nodes are retaliation nodes. I check every one and recognize that some 4* and 5* covers are pretty much automatic losses. I have skipped 12-15 red nodes without finding a single winnable battle - where all enemies are overpowered in comparison to my roster. I have then used the FREE "skip" on the 5 or 6 yellow nodes available, then paid for 3 more skips and stopped with no winnable battles. Not uncommon for me to skip a combination of 15+ yellow and red nodes without finding any beatable opponents. When I said I "skip 3" it only meant I paid for 3 skips at a time. I might come back into the PvP 10 minutes later and try another few paid skips, but I cannot let myself become obsessive about it - one time I kept hitting the 10iso skip button until I found a winnable battle and ended up skipping like 35 times before I found a single competitive match, then got only unbeatable enemies again. I just cannot let myself do that every time - not giving in to the OCD...

KGB

Tanglefoot said:

 one time I kept hitting the 10iso skip button until I found a winnable battle and ended up skipping like 35 times before I found a single competitive match, then got only unbeatable enemies again. I just cannot let myself do that every time - not giving in to the OCD...

Guess your just not that serious about PvP yet      When I am trying to get from 800->900 it's nothing to skip 35 times to get decent match (avoid health packs or high chance of losing) for reasonable points.

Terminology:

Slice - There are 5 of these. They are the 5 end times for an event (PvP or PvE) so when someone says slice 5 they mean they enter the latest finish time.

Bracket - The group of players you compete against point total wise for placement. There are 500 players per Bracket. There are at least 10 brackets per slice (CL1, CL2...CL10). Once a bracket fills, another opens so there may be 4-5 brackets at CL10 for a single slice.

Everything else you wrote sounds about right for your 3* roster. If you are now in Teenage Riot on day 1 a score of 499 sounds about where you'd break MMR for your roster. At lunch (EST) I was able to get to about 575-600 with my 4* roster around L320.

At this point it doesn't matter how many losses you have in a row. The only way you are going to get easier opponents is to lower your score down to around 350-400 range. The reason is that the game can't find many other players with a similar roster to yours with a score like yours. Even though you'd take a 5 point match with a similar roster, the game isn't going to give it to you because otherwise wins based would be too easy (everyone would just beat much weaker rosters or even similar rosters because the AI has no real chance to win). Right now you need to go away and come back in 12-24 hours and skip the red nodes you can't beat and then search for new opponents. The MMR level will be raised then (more players will have joined and the top scores will be higher) and you'll be able to get to a higher score. By the end of the event you'll be where you normally are score wise (700 range).

Note: Each slice has it's own MMR (derived from all the players in all the brackets in that slice). Some slices have much higher MMR's than others. It's well known that slice 2 has higher scores and if you play there you will be able to reach a higher score than playing in slices that have lower MMR. So knowing your slice, we can tell you if it's worth switching to another one.

KGB

P.S. Updated to reflect SkittleDaddys info that there are only 500 in a PvP bracket.

DAZ0273

Yes, bracket is the right term - newer players often confuse these and it leads to frustration because they believe that a lower SCL means easier opponents which is not the case.

If you have gone past your MMR break point, the chances are that all of the red nodes are going to be higher level players feasting on you. You will note though that after a certain point, the hits stop coming - this is because you have been beaten down to a point score where MMR has gone back to protecting you. If this is on day one, climbing again might result in rinse and repeat. Using your float point on day 1 would enable you to survive over night, check where you are on the leader boards and start to queue up teams  that should hopefully be more at your level. If you playing points based PvP you should try to avoid hitting teams that are worth low points because you could also be proving a costly retaliation opportunity.

If you hit a brick wall it is time to come back tomorrow and see where you are.

As suspected you are "front running". This is a perfectly legit tactic as long as you can either a) finish your objectives quickly or b) have the roster to deter attacks on you as you rise up the leaderboard. Front runners tend to either get to their target asap and then either not worry about losing points or use shields over multiple days to sustain and gain more points. However, as you are playing for placement you need to be able to stretch out your game play over multiple days whilst avoiding multiple hits - to do this you need a combination of tactics and the willingness to protect points if the hits come in.

skittledaddy

KGB said:

Tanglefoot said:

 one time I kept hitting the 10iso skip button until I found a winnable battle and ended up skipping like 35 times before I found a single competitive match, then got only unbeatable enemies again. I just cannot let myself do that every time - not giving in to the OCD...

Terminology:

Bracket - The group of players you compete against point total wise for placement. There are 1000 players per Bracket. There are at least 10 brackets per slice (CL1, CL2...CL10). Once a bracket fills, another opens so there may be 4-5 brackets at CL10 for a single slice.

 Slight correction. There are 1,000 players per PVE bracket. PVP is only 500 per bracket.
Since this thread is PVP heavy, I felt it worth clarifying.

HoundofShadow

If you can play SCL 8 or 9, do so. A lot of players have moved to SCL 10. If not, they are stuck at 9 waiting to move to SCL 10 once they hit Shield Rank 120. Only a handful of multiple champed 5* players will stay in SCL 9 to get more HP and 5* shards from top 1 to top 10 placement.

I believe the number of players in higher SCL like 8 or 9 is more than the number of players in 6 or 7. Moving up will probably give you more variety of opponents due to increased number of brackets per slice.

Skipping 35 times is pretty excessive. When you think that you've reached a certain glass ceiling, stop and look at those opponents' names. Chances are, they are pretty much the same batch of opponents. I discovered this while trying to count the number of unique teams offered to me, and the number of iHulkoye in that batch. Even if you beat them, it's very likely they will offer you easy opponents with single digit point. Come back to PvPs later and you will find opponents with more points.

If you are going for 50 wins, you can break your wins into 19-25-32-40-50 and shield up in the last 3 hours. 

I'm curious what it means to find "beatable" matches? What kind of 3* teams are you fielding and what is the build of your Polaris and 4* Rocket since you mentioned that you have them rostered?

Tanglefoot

here is a good example from this morning. woke up ranked like #89 in Teenage Riot with 489 points. 

Did NOT do any attacks as I had other things to do. Opened MPQ about 90 minutes later and saw I had been attacked at least 14 times - 14 red retaliation nodes. I checked the players who hit me. Keep in mind, I have not now attacked anything in teenage riot in like 10 hours. 5 of the top 10 players had hit me in that cycle - all of them had over 900 points, and very few of the enemy characters were under level 300. 

My score was no where near them. I had not attacked, and my last activity had been 20-25 losses. Their rosters were way higher, many covers for 4* and 5* characters. 

MMR was still broken for me after 20+ losses and 10 hours of no attacks? That tells me MMR in general is broken.

BriMan2222

Tanglefoot said:

here is a good example from this morning. woke up ranked like #89 in Teenage Riot with 489 points. 

Did NOT do any attacks as I had other things to do. Opened MPQ about 90 minutes later and saw I had been attacked at least 14 times - 14 red retaliation nodes. I checked the players who hit me. Keep in mind, I have not now attacked anything in teenage riot in like 10 hours. 5 of the top 10 players had hit me in that cycle - all of them had over 900 points, and very few of the enemy characters were under level 300. 

My score was no where near them. I had not attacked, and my last activity had been 20-25 losses. Their rosters were way higher, many covers for 4* and 5* characters. 

MMR was still broken for me after 20+ losses and 10 hours of no attacks? That tells me MMR in general is broken.

Were those top 10 players already in top ten before they hit you or did they hit you when they were at like 300 points and you were 489 on there way up to the top?  If they were already at 900 points and hit you while you were that far below them then they would only get you for like 12 points or something like that since points are based on how much your opponents score is in relation to yours.

If they did hit you while they were above you for a small amount then that is either because they qued you while they were below you and saved it for later, or everyone worth similar points to them is already shielded so their mmr opened up to show them more options.

I myself as a 5 star player with my biggest char being lvl 514 can start queing up 3 star, or even 2 or 1 star rosters towards the end of event when all of the people that would be worth points to me are shielded. 

Tanglefoot

@HoundofShadow
"beatable" matches? What kind of 3* teams are you fielding and what is the build of your Polaris and 4* Rocket since you mentioned that you have them rostered?

I tend to run underlevelled Polaris (213) at 2/4/5 and R4G (137) at 1/5/0 - alongside Kamala Khan 3/5/5 at level 322 BOOSTED.

I would say I look for "competitive" not "an easy beat down". And it depends on the enemy characters and covers. If the enemy team includes a level 300 BRB with only yellow showing, I'll hit that, but when it is a level 405 BRB with all 3 colors, I am running away. If the enemy team is all level 370+ 4* covers like Juggernaut and Sabretooth. If you add up the levels of my 3 characters, they total 672 for Teenage Riot. If the enemy level total is like 1000+, I am probably going to call that unbeatable - depending on the character mix. And there are characters which are simply to strong to compete against -  I have 0% chance against a team with a full color level 370 Kitty. A Kitty with a single yellow cover almost wiped out my entire team. I sailed into a team with level 340+ Cyclops (yellow and green covers) and Adam Warlock (yellow and black covers) this morning - but passed on an enemy with a full color level 330ish Samurai Daken and a full color level 330ish 4* Deadpool. I lose between a third and half of those high-level matches I try - if I start dropping more than half of those, I get more conservative on my match selection.

Tanglefoot

Briman - they were already in the top 10. When I opened them up as retaliation nodes, the available points typically showed 65-68 points for a "Rating Reward". That tells me the game KNOWS they are way above me. 

entrailbucket

If these retaliation nodes are worth that many points, it means that you lost between 5 and 10 points when they attacked you.  Most of us would view those retaliations as a tasty opportunity, but if they're not beatable for you you can just skip them, having lost almost nothing.

Those players are seeing you because they've run out of "good" matches for the game to give them, and the game has to show them something.  When the game starts handing out fights for 5 points a lot of players just stop, because they don't see them as worth the risk.

BriMan2222

Tanglefoot said:

Briman - they were already in the top 10. When I opened them up as retaliation nodes, the available points typically showed 65-68 points for a "Rating Reward". That tells me the game KNOWS they are way above me. 

Yes the game knows, like I said if they hit from above then they only got very little points.

Beefhammer69

Note: Each slice has it's own MMR (derived from all the players in all the brackets in that slice). Some slices have much higher MMR's than others. It's well known that slice 2 has higher scores and if you play there you will be able to reach a higher score than playing in slices that have lower MMR. So knowing your slice, we can tell you if it's worth switching to another one.

Slight correction: it is well known that slice 2 and 5 are much lower-scoring slices, while 1 and 4 are the two highest. 3 is a middle ground. My suggestion would be to join slice 1 where’s there’s a TON of players and brackets, thus allowing for less stagnation of player q’s available. 

HoundofShadow

489 should be his floating point because he mentioned that he will usually hit 600-700 in PvP before taking a break. Normally his position at that point of time when he hits 600-700 is not lower than #10.

Current # in PvPs kind of tells you whether you will be beaten to a pulp if there are still a lot of time left.

There are two possibilities why he's seeing what's he seeing, as mentioned above:

1) he was queued by other players and got attacked when they decided to play PvPs

2) at that point of time, he was the available target with the highest point for those 5* players.

I played like Tanglefoot (climbing quickly when the PvP just beginned) initially while I was a 3* and 4* player. What he's seeing is totally normal to me: getting retal nodes with 5* and champed 4* teams. 

As a 5* player now, the game will also offer me 3* team or baby champed 4* team with single digit or low double digit point when I hit over 1200 points. And I did not even queue them at all. Any 5* players with iHulkoye will finish such teams in 15 to 20 seconds. Within a minute of beating 3* teams, you get about 30 points.

When 3* players hit ~800 points as the PvPs nears to an end (3-8 hours), the game will throw them only (boosted) 4* teams, which were really difficult to beat in the past. You can use whale to hit 900 points but you will beaten down a lot if you don't shield up. 

When you become 4* player, you can aim for higher points, like 900 to 1000 points. However, when you reach this high without shielding, you will get hits even by 550 rosters.

I believe all these are deliberate to give a sense of progress for serious PvP players.

3* players break MMR and will be exposed to champed 4* and 5* player when they hit over 700 points.

Also, it seems like he's still using the combined levels of his opponents as a measuring stick to determine MMR. His total level is ~600 but his tough opponents are ~ x2 of his. 

As for Tanglefoot, you have the important builds for both meta characters:

Polaris (213) at 2/4/5 and R4G (137) at 1/5/0 

You should be breezing through most opponents with the above team in PvPs, unless they are Sabretooth, Medusa, Carbage, Kitty, IHulk etc. Matches using this meta team should take 60 to 90 secs on average.

The only weakness I see is Polaris is tanking for R4G. Just work on building R4G up to 213 and put him on the left slot so that they can tank blue and green for Polaris.

McPosterson

Listen to entrailbucket.  He long time vet.  Knows much about the game.