Is there a name for those easy teams in PVP when you hit 800 or so?

CharlieCroker

The filters itemised by Entrail seem reasonable in my 5+ years playing this game.  I have a fairly strong 5* roster (500 Okoye, rest 450-480) and my experience is:

2.  I will not generally see the higher level (520+) rosters until I hit 800+ AND they are no opponents of a more similar level available to Q for 30-40 points.  It’s normally at this time my MMR opens up and I see 4* teams for lesser points.

In past times this has been a frustration as 550 teams can and have hit players at my level way before I could see them, despite my being able to beat them consistently.  Nowadays with the latest crop of 5*s, even with a 500+ Okoye they’re tough to beat and nearly always require multiple healthpacks (which some would argue is how it should be).

3.  I will see players for similar/higher points from the start and whilst I’ll be in, for example, the 4th flip of 1.10, I will also see players in all other 1.x brackets.

4. Entirely correct, and as Entrail pointed out, even if I’m using champed 4*s myself all I will see is other duo 5* teams - until my MMR opens up.

Tanglefoot - I suspect your experience is due to the lack of similar level rosters scoring high enough for you to keep seeing them.  I remember in my very early days in 2/3* land i could only get to 300-400 before only seeing higher tier teams.  As your roster level increases, so will the score you can reach just hitting similar level teams.

The precise machinations of MMR are indeed a mystery.  However players have long understood ways in which MMR operates and exploited them where they can (i.e. grills, cupcakes, and using teams to hide themselves from MMR).

Kolence

@Tanglefoot

3. They are getting similar scores in other BRACKETS of that same event. Across multiple SCLs. Anyone and everyone you can see or who can see you are all in the same SLICE. Period.

Rosters will remain hidden from rosters of much lower and much higher strength up to some higher score relative to the slice or bracket or both (high level players who play pvp a lot would know exactly). The stronger the roster the higher that score point is. As an example, double 550 players will become visible only after 1000+ points sometimes, because most other players are shielded at this point except for short periods of hopping. But once someone breaks MMR, they can see more targets and it will trump some or all of the restrictions from this previous rule.

2. & 4. What's your score like compared to your average high-ish score you can achieve in events when these things are happening? If it's fairly high, the game has failed to find and provide you with targets closer to your range and is giving you much harder teams. 

P.S.

Oh, as for the OP's question, I believe I've heard the term Walrus here and there... Not quite a Seal but still an easy target for a stronger roster, and also worth  a bit more? Not sure if it's used for the situation the OP was describing or just slightly bigger Seals, though...

entrailbucket

Tanglefoot said:

saw this 
"When you skip a node, the game looks for your next fight by applying filters in cascading order.

1.  Unshielded players

2.  A filter here removes fights that are deemed too hard for you to win.

3.  Players with similar points to you in this event.
4.  Players with a similar roster to you (note that this has nothing to do with the team you're currently using, it's your roster)."

the only thing true here is #1.

2 - I am a mid-3* player, with only 1 character over level 200. I regularly get fights offered to me where the LOWEST level on the enemy team is 300+, and they have 2 5* each with multiple covers. The chances I can win a battle against a level 300 5* Carnage with all colors, a level 327 kitty with all colors, and a level 355 Apocalypse with all colors is exactly 0%. so not true.

3. I regularly see enemies that I cannot find on the list of scores, at all. Perhaps, as someone mentions above, they are getting similar scores in other slices and I just cannot see them. I was watching this last night. I was #3 in a PvP, and like 150 points ahead of #4. Both #1 and #2 in rankings were unshielded, and neither ever appeared in my PvP in 15 battles, as I caught up to and passed them. By the time I finished, #4 was about 200 points behind the new #3, but I never saw the other two players I passed, but I skipped a TON of other enemies with monster teams. I am not convinced your score has ANYTHING to do with PvP matching.

4. Absolutely not true. I have skipped 12-15 opponents before seeing another 3* character, The total levels of my entire team cannot exceed 600 - I just don't have the roster. I rarely see enemy teams where the total levels of the enemy team are lower than maybe 1,000 at best, and often see levels totaling over 1100. That regularly pits me against players with fully champed 4* rosters, when I don't even have a single maxed 3*. so the roster has nothing to do with MMR.

MMR is a mystery.

Charlie answered pretty much everything, so thanks!  I'm not used to anyone saying I'm right about stuff.  

I'd say the problem you're having is that there are no players with a roster like yours at your point level.  The game can't just make up fights, every fight you see is another actual human player.  If you have 600 points, the game will try to show you other players with your roster near 600 points.  If there are none, then it will start showing you other players near 600 points, and those players will probably have stronger rosters than you do.

The "fights that are too hard" filter will hide level 450+ 5* fights from you, for example.  I don't know how the game handles undercovered 5*, but I bet if you tried some of those fights they would be winnable for you.  On offense you have a tremendous advantage because the enemy AI is very stupid.

The other thing you should know is that you can be matched with any player who's chosen the same end time, not just players on your leaderboard.  An end time may have 15-20 leaderboards of various CL (this is an absolute wild guess, I have no way of knowing how many) and you can be matched with any of those players.

entrailbucket

I thought about it for a second and I see the problem.  My post wasn't totally clear. 

The filters I listed are *cascading*.  So the game will first try to show you fights that meet all 4 criteria.  If it fails to find any, it'll remove the 4th filter and search again using 1-2-3, and so on with the third.

There are some additional weird things that start to happen once you get to *very* high point totals, or very early in events.  Players with two or more lvl550 characters are also handled in a different way.

Phumade

LavaManLee said:

Beefhammer69 said:

Also, you keep mentioning that you play CL10 PVP in like every post/comment but that still doesn’t change the fact that it has no effect on the teams the game shows you. That’s based on your MMR and your MMR only. 

Is this a documented fact?  And very sorry to upset you by mentioning it as I thought it was worthwhile.  There are many people (like my alliance mates) that I never, ever ever see so thought it has something to do with my slice and my CL10.  I could definitely be incorrect and thought mentioning what Level I play was helpful.  But it might have no bearing.

in pvp Cl only matters for rewards.  Your offensive MMR or what you can que is based solely on your roster and similar sized rosters who are out floating

Obviously in pve its sorta opposite where clearance level 10 means a specific range of levels clearance level 9 is lower enemies etc.  

revskip

I think the other issue Tanglefoot is having is that mosbunall other 3* rosters don't usually play PvP very far in.  I know I wouldn't bother with it when I was still in that phase because I was getting hammered immediately by 4* rosters as soon as I hit 500 or so.  Until I made the 4* transition I would just hit the seed teams and maybe try to get just a few more to get that first CP reward.  Since there are fewer teams at his level it stands to reason that finding them might be a little harder.  As your roster grows into the next transition it should get easier @Tanglefoot

Sekilicious

I just realized that 5* players call me a walrus behind my back. Time to go on a diet and get braces I guess

Beefhammer69

Sekilicious said:

I just realized that 5* players call me a walrus behind my back. Time to go on a diet and get braces I guess

Think of it as a term of endearment. Walrii are critical for early-event point generation and mid-event grill fodder. 

Tanglefoot

#5 in my slice with 628 points. Stalled because there are no enemy teams available that I even have a chance of beating. For grins I checked the rosters of everyone in the top 10 on the leaderboard. 8 of the other 9 in the top 10 have a weaker roster than me but none of them appeared in my enemy options. 

I can get into the low 700s but have no chance of staying anywhere near that since if I get there I get pounded by level 450 teams and shed 150 points in a couple minutes - like the MMR said “hey here is someone scoring too high”

I am unconvinced the MMR has anything to do with scores. It has previously been suggested that I am breaking MMR. perhaps then, the proposed rules apply in normal MMR and there are simply no rules when you break MMR. 

It seems I tend to live in a broken MMR world.

acescracked

At least dual 550s aren't hitting you. Though you've got that to look forward to. Albeit a few years away.

Sekilicious

The ones who score higher than you with lesser rosters likely all shield hop and coordinate their hops on line. So you’re correct. Your final score has little to do with MMR.

HoundofShadow

Here's a rule of thumb, based on my experience hitting top 10 as an ex- 3* and 4* player:

3* players' highest point that they can score with shielding is about 800 - 900.

4* players, 900-1000.

5* players, 1000 and above.

If you are still a 3* player, aim for 800 or 850, put up a shield and call it a day. 3 hour shield will do. You want the 4* shards? Grind for 50 wins.


Edit:

It's difficult to help you because you are not specific about the time left when you hit certain point. Timing is important in PvP. If you are hitting top 5 with 628 points, chances are, you played too early. 

BriMan2222

Tanglefoot said:

#5 in my slice with 628 points. Stalled because there are no enemy teams available that I even have a chance of beating. For grins I checked the rosters of everyone in the top 10 on the leaderboard. 8 of the other 9 in the top 10 have a weaker roster than me but none of them appeared in my enemy options. 

I can get into the low 700s but have no chance of staying anywhere near that since if I get there I get pounded by level 450 teams and shed 150 points in a couple minutes - like the MMR said “hey here is someone scoring too high”

I am unconvinced the MMR has anything to do with scores. It has previously been suggested that I am breaking MMR. perhaps then, the proposed rules apply in normal MMR and there are simply no rules when you break MMR. 

It seems I tend to live in a broken MMR world.

Are those people higher than you shielded? You can't que opponents that are protected by shields. You've got pvp vets here giving you advice on how pvp works.  I've been playing 7 years as a pvp focused player and I can assure you the information they are giving you is correct. 

Beefhammer69

Tanglefoot said:

#5 in my slice with 628 points. Stalled because there are no enemy teams available that I even have a chance of beating. For grins I checked the rosters of everyone in the top 10 on the leaderboard. 8 of the other 9 in the top 10 have a weaker roster than me but none of them appeared in my enemy options. 

I can get into the low 700s but have no chance of staying anywhere near that since if I get there I get pounded by level 450 teams and shed 150 points in a couple minutes - like the MMR said “hey here is someone scoring too high”

I am unconvinced the MMR has anything to do with scores. It has previously been suggested that I am breaking MMR. perhaps then, the proposed rules apply in normal MMR and there are simply no rules when you break MMR. 

It seems I tend to live in a broken MMR world.

Score and MMR are intrinsically tied together. You’ve just answered your own question: “there are simply no rules when you break MMR.” When you find yourself that high, that’s when you put up a shield a d start hopping. Otherwise you’re gonna be blasted into next week because you’ve flown too close to the sun for your MMR tier. 

Tanglefoot

BriMan, none were shielded.

I think my point is that MMR in PvP has rules, but it is possible to put yourself in a position where you break MMR and the rules no longer apply correctly. 

I tend to consume my ammo and climb into the 600-700 range 2x during a PvP, then try to make a run late to get maybe top 10, depending on the rewards. I have hit #3, and usually hit top 10 when I try, but not always - that pounding in the last 3 minutes of a PvP often costs me big, but it’s not often I feel the rewards I can reach are worth the cost of a shield.

as a mostly 3* player, though I have both Polaris and R4G rostered, chances I could hit 800 points is pretty close to 0%. Maybe if I shield hopped, but if I spend the HP for shields I will still need to see winnable matches when I unshield. Once I get much over about 600 points I have to shop hard for a potentially winnable match - skipping most opponents who hit me, and using up all my other skips. I typically then buy 3 skips at 10 iso each. If I still don’t get a decent match, I exit the PvP and wait for someone to attack me again and try skipping again. I have “skipped” as many as 15 opponents before finding a reasonable match. Skipping is its own problem - still surprised I can “skip” 3 times and keep getting the same exact opponent tossed back at me.

I regularly try matches against multiple 5* covers, but at my level, when it seems like every enemy team includes something like a lvl 340 full color Kitty, a lvl 320 Killmonger with multiple red and black covers or a level 357 full color 5* Deadpool, my “winnable” options are often limited. 

HoundofShadow

Timing. Timing. Timing. Also, you just told everyone why you were getting blasted to another planet.

1. "I have hit #3, and usually hit top 10 when I try, but not always - that pounding in the last 3 minutes of a PvP often costs me big, but it’s not often I feel the rewards I can reach are worth the cost of a shield."

You are not shielded, and your score is pretty high for your slice. That makes you a target, especially in the last few minutes or hours. Shield up, if not, miracle needs to happen.

2. You said that you were hitting 600-700 points twice in a single PvP. 

3. You are getting the same two or three opponents regardless of how many times you skip. 

Point 2 and 3 means one thing to me, you climbed too high too fast.

Find your float point, climb in the last 3.5 hours and then put up a shield. If you don't want to put up a shield, then you got to hope no one hits you.

acescracked

Sekilicious said:

The ones who score higher than you with lesser rosters likely all shield hop and coordinate their hops on line. So you’re correct. Your final score has little to do with MMR.

Um No. The player roster strengths tangle is referencing aren't in line check rooms. 

entrailbucket

Tanglefoot said:

BriMan, none were shielded.

I think my point is that MMR in PvP has rules, but it is possible to put yourself in a position where you break MMR and the rules no longer apply correctly. 

I tend to consume my ammo and climb into the 600-700 range 2x during a PvP, then try to make a run late to get maybe top 10, depending on the rewards. I have hit #3, and usually hit top 10 when I try, but not always - that pounding in the last 3 minutes of a PvP often costs me big, but it’s not often I feel the rewards I can reach are worth the cost of a shield.

as a mostly 3* player, though I have both Polaris and R4G rostered, chances I could hit 800 points is pretty close to 0%. Maybe if I shield hopped, but if I spend the HP for shields I will still need to see winnable matches when I unshield. Once I get much over about 600 points I have to shop hard for a potentially winnable match - skipping most opponents who hit me, and using up all my other skips. I typically then buy 3 skips at 10 iso each. If I still don’t get a decent match, I exit the PvP and wait for someone to attack me again and try skipping again. I have “skipped” as many as 15 opponents before finding a reasonable match. Skipping is its own problem - still surprised I can “skip” 3 times and keep getting the same exact opponent tossed back at me.

I regularly try matches against multiple 5* covers, but at my level, when it seems like every enemy team includes something like a lvl 340 full color Kitty, a lvl 320 Killmonger with multiple red and black covers or a level 357 full color 5* Deadpool, my “winnable” options are often limited. 

You're not using the skip button enough.  It's cheap, 10 iso is absolutely nothing.  If you had used it more than 3 times I guarantee you'd have found those other players.  Players who PvP seriously can spend tens of thousands of iso on skips every event.

Why?  It's simple and also complicated.  When the game fetches a match for you, it's pulling from a list that it's pre-generated for you in the background (a "cache," in MPQ parlance).  Let's say the game pulls 10 matches for you at the same time, using the filter criteria I outlined.  When you skip you get the next one on that list.  The game doesn't rerun the search, though, until your cache is empty.

We don't know how big the cache is.  It can hold multiples of the same opponent in certain circumstances.  If you want to exhaust it more quickly, make sure to skip on all 3 nodes.

entrailbucket

Also, you can skip while you're shielded!  Shield hoppers will shield up then wait, skip for awhile to find 3 good fights, and unshield only when they have 3 good fights lined up.

DAZ0273

Tanglefoot said:

#5 in my slice with 628 points. Stalled because there are no enemy teams available that I even have a chance of beating. For grins I checked the rosters of everyone in the top 10 on the leaderboard. 8 of the other 9 in the top 10 have a weaker roster than me but none of them appeared in my enemy options. 

I can get into the low 700s but have no chance of staying anywhere near that since if I get there I get pounded by level 450 teams and shed 150 points in a couple minutes - like the MMR said “hey here is someone scoring too high”

I am unconvinced the MMR has anything to do with scores. It has previously been suggested that I am breaking MMR. perhaps then, the proposed rules apply in normal MMR and there are simply no rules when you break MMR. 

It seems I tend to live in a broken MMR world.

There is no way that you would be #5 in an entire slice with that low of a score, so I think some terms are being mixed up.

Slice = Time Slice. This is the time you have chosen for the event to end by. You and thousands of others of players are now in a massive pool of potential targets. You could potentially be able to fight against any of these players but not withstanding the filters already posted about on this thread which seeks to narrow your MMR.

Leaderboard = This is the specific leaderboard that you are competing against other players in with regard to your points tally and your final rank. It is entirely possible that you could go the whole event and never actually have to fight any of these players in your Leaderboard. Leaderboards have a set number of players who can be counted in one bracket, when this fills the bracket "flips" and opens up another leaderboard which then begins to fill up. All of these players are taken from the same Time Slice, can potentially fight against anybody else in that Time Slice but only compete against the other players in their bracket/Leaderboard for placement position. This is the only thing determined by SCL of the bracket you enter - who you compete against for placement.

Playing late in an event, there are two things normally happening - 1.) Most players with high scores will be shielded and so not counted as part of your MMR and 2.) Those players that are actively playing will be either Climbing and so any unshielded players with higher totals that come across their MMR are going to be juicy targets or they will be Shield Hopping which probably means they will not be an available target for very long as they will re-shield. The speed at which you can win battles now determines how many points you are going to be able to get because if the time it takes you to win means that 2 or 3 other players can hit you faster, it is going to be a blood bath. You are worth lots of points, these players are likely late climbing, you seem to have broken your MMR and are visible to all. Unless you have a great Defensive team, you are the perfect snack unshielded whilst you thrash around trying to find a viable target. In the old days, the way 3* players could get around this was by collusion and scoffing high point value Cup Cakes left out by higher level players. Cup Cakes no longer exist for lower level players though after the Devs changed how the game lines up a players Defensive team.

Float point - this is the points tally that you can reach where your unshielded team is not getting constantly hit. This is determined both by the defensive strength of your team as a "scarecrow" and also what level of points have been injected in to the slice and how active it is. Normally, if you get hit more than once it is a sign that your team has now reached a points tally where MMR has opened up and your team is visible to potentially stronger rosters who can attack you at will - it is time to shield! However, if you are able to work out your average "float point" - the points tally where you can reach and not shield and not get battered, you can use this as a staging point in your climb, queue up targets with good points and prepare to push in your next session.