Class of 2018 - what about 2* and 3* players?

itsuka7

Class of 2018 pvp has locked out all chars that were not released in 2018. So, none of the 2* and 3* players can play it, as all 1*, 2* and 3* (except Angel) were released before 2018. Yes, they can use sone low level standard chars, but only those, and none of the chars they worked so hard to champ.

I have said it before: beginners in this game are treated horribly. I have tried to get people interested, but most leave soon, because they cannot earn enough hp on low level scls pve or pvp to roster a few extra characters. Even the ones that bought a beginners pack. Why? Apparently balancing this game is always done without considering low level players. 

With 5* players leaving due to RL or burnout, and new players trying the game finding it so unwelcoming, the playerbase will keep shrinking. I can tell, because flips in scl7 now take forever. Hardly any new blood is coming from below. This lack of newer players has to effect revenue...

Locking out the entire 1*, 2* and 3* selection is in my humble opionion an example of a callous disregard of newer players. I wish that everyone working on this game would be forced to start a new account, without cheats or paying, every 6 months and play it up to have every 4* rostered, in order to experience the game on that level... maybe that would open their eyes.

Dormammu

What about the players who have been with this game since the day it launched 7 years ago? Can't they get catered too once in a while? Since 90% of the PvPs still require a 3-star and newer players are even given a loaner, I think this one event (the only one I know of that locks out 1-3 stars) being run once a year doesn't have to be perceived as a slap in the face to newer players. Instead, let's look at it as a tip of the cap to those players who have kept the lights on for the last 7 years, allowing those newer players a game to play after all this time.

I'd also like to point out that this is being run directly after Balance of Power - an event that especially caters to newer players with younger rosters.

itsuka7

The idea of mpq is that everyone can play each pve and pvp event at their own level. And every 5* player can play a 3* pvp event, they are not locked out. They can play BoP, they can play Combined Arms, it may be annoying for them, they might prefer other events, but every pvp player with a 5* roster has 3* and 4* chars to use, and they can play them. As a 4* player, I have played pvp where part of my roster is locked, but I aoways had enough options left.

Locking out an entire category group of players completely, even if by now they are a minority, which is not even a healthy situation, is something else entirely.

bowla33

Isn't CY18 offering 4 and 5 loaners of all characters? I don't know if they're more effective than unboosted 3s but nobody should be locked out from playing. 

itsuka7

Each node fearures 3 different loaners, so I guess yes, 3* players can bash ineffectively at each other with those

But not being able to add a single choice of your own makes it not really pvp like. 

Why not just boost the 2018 chars, or leaving at least all 2* and 3* available, only locking out 4* and 5* from different years?

pheregas

itsuka7 said:

But not being able to add a single choice of your own makes it not really pvp like. 

Seems like every other pvp.
There's really no choice.  You play the meta.

BriMan2222

itsuka7 said:

The idea of mpq is that everyone can play each pve and pvp event at their own level. And every 5* player can play a 3* pvp event, they are not locked out. They can play BoP, they can play Combined Arms, it may be annoying for them, they might prefer other events, but every pvp player with a 5* roster has 3* and 4* chars to use, and they can play them. As a 4* player, I have played pvp where part of my roster is locked, but I aoways had enough options left.

Locking out an entire category group of players completely, even if by now they are a minority, which is not even a healthy situation, is something else entirely.

I'm not a dev, so I can't speak for them, but if their idea was that everyone can play no matter what then Heroic PVE would never have been a thing.  You must be too new to remember but there used to be pve events where the boosted characters were also the only characters you could use.  Didn't have those characters? No pve event for you.

They still kind of do that for shield training events.  Everyone can play every event no matter what has never seemed to be there style.  It's seemed more like, you better collect every character and buy roster slots or you won't be able to play every event.

itsuka7

pheregas said:

itsuka7 said:

But not being able to add a single choice of your own makes it not really pvp like. 

Seems like every other pvp.
There's really no choice.  You play the meta.

Only the 5* players have that problem ... the rest of us can still enjoy diversity. One reason why I am sitting on 8 13 covered 5* that are still unchamped. But I like my pvp

itsuka7

BriMan2222 said:

I'm not a dev, so I can't speak for them, but if their idea was that everyone can play no matter what then Heroic PVE would never have been a thing.  You must be too new to remember but there used to be pve events where the boosted characters were also the only characters you could use.  Didn't have those characters? No pve event for you.

They still kind of do that for shield training events.  Everyone can play every event no matter what has never seemed to be there style.  It's seemed more like, you better collect every character and buy roster slots or you won't be able to play every event

Shield training, like DPD, is the sort of event where you can do a little bit if you are very low in roster, more if you progress. WHen I started my alt, I could complete my first ever shield event entire first row with loaners, and the entire first 2* column. I could not do it all, but I felt great doing what I could do. Even as a complete beginner roster I felt I participated,

I am around for a little over 2 years, and I have not seen that Heroic pve. But I guess it was changed or discontinued for exactly that reason,

I have been able to play every pve event with my beginner account. And the only pvp events I had trouble with were the 5* pvp, because getting rid of 30k health opponents when your best damage dealer apart from the loaner manages 600 points damage... if the loaner is a suppprt char, that is a big problem. But I still managed to play those events, albeit not very far. I still think class of 2018 in its current form is worse.

Dormammu

itsuka7 said:

I am around for a little over 2 years, and I have not seen that Heroic pve. But I guess it was changed or discontinued for exactly that reason,

Heroic PvE's weren't discontinued because they locked out players they were discontinued because they weren't needed anymore. (They didn't lock anybody out, either. Usable characters were restricted, but those restrictions included characters from all star levels except 5s.)

Heroic PvEs were from a time when the game had a very small few PvE events to run, so the developers made carbon copies of a couple Prologue sections, elevated the enemy levels, and slapped them together as PvE events so they didn't have to run the same two or three events over and over. Once the number of unique PvE events reached a certain point, Heroics were no longer needed to add variety.

Daredevil217

itsuka7 said:

pheregas said:

itsuka7 said:

But not being able to add a single choice of your own makes it not really pvp like. 

Seems like every other pvp.
There's really no choice.  You play the meta.

Only the 5* players have that problem ... the rest of us can still enjoy diversity. One reason why I am sitting on 8 13 covered 5* that are still unchamped. But I like my pvp

There’s a lot of irony in this post.

To your original point one could say

Only the newbies have that problem ... the rest of us can still enjoy diversity. One reason why I collect, chase, and champ every character I can. But I like my pvp

Snarkiness aside, I don’t see how this is any different than other events. You can still play. Other game modes lock you out of nodes/rewards completely if you don’t have the right SINGLE character. But here you can net 75 wins, get all the rewards, and spend 0 healthpacks using new characters and beating up other players in the same boat as you if you were so inclined. 

This game has always benefited those who spend more/longer, play more/longer and collect more/longer in general. It doesn’t shock me that during a time when they are trying to acknowledge and celebrate players who have stuck with them for a long time that it gets ramped up a bit. And it’s not like there’s nothing for new players. Free tokens, good vaults, double iso, etc. If having to use some loaners one time a year despite all the anniversary goodies is what makes these players quit, they probably weren’t going to be in it for the long haul anyway. 

Dormammu

Daredevil217 said:
 But here you can net 75 wins, get all the rewards, and spend 0 healthpacks using new characters 

This is how I feel. I loved loaners back in the day. I sometimes got to try out new characters I didn't have and if they got wiped and I lost, so what? I could go right back in and they'd be at full health. I certainly didn't blame the developers for not including me. If anything, it encouraged me to go after some characters that I discovered I really liked and wanted at the next stage.

I still enjoy it, especially with the 'Introducing...' events they run with new characters now. Try it out before you buy it.

itsuka7

The loaners in shield or other char events are usually decent to play with. These sadly are not.
I can only add that the 3* players in our chat were not thrilled at all  to play loaners only. They seemed to think they would rather have their Doc Strange or Iron Man or whatever than a 4* loaner with a only single cover in each color. Like the loaner Shuri, who does a whopping 789 damage with her 1 cover green. Even a champed 2* would do better than that. 

Further, if I helped steer this thread towards ‘5* players against lower players’ in any way, that was not my intention. There is no conflict of interest. Making this game welcoming to new players is important to keep it viable, or revenu will at some point dwindle to unsustainable levels. The sentiment given here is ‘we worked hard for our 5* roster, and newbies should not complain’. Sure, if you are a 5* player, you can feel that anyone below that level is not worthy of the same consideration as someone who worked hard for 7 years, and you would be right on one hand, and entirely be missing the point on the other. Being, that a healthy game needs a steady stream of new players to replace those who have left. If the plug is pulled due to unsustainability, we all suffer. So, my point is, lets not create a false dualism between old and new players, lets propose and support that everyone has fun at their own level, lets support and speak out for a game that old players want to keep playing, but new players want to stick around in as well.

acescracked

itsuka7 said:

I have said it before: beginners in this game are treated horribly. 

Can you gimme a few links to posts where you've said it before please. I missed em and would like to read it. Thanks!

Southside84

I'm torn.  On one hand, this has been my most fun PVP in a while because I don't have to hit the same meta teams over and over.   On the other side, I see how a new roster could feel like they aren't getting to use their teams.  I was complaining in combined arms since I worked hard for 5 star champs and couldn't use them.  A 2 and 3 star roster has valid complaints to their top characters being locked.   I also remember the grittyshop fest that was all of last year's class of whenever.  I like it better this way, but that doesn't make my opinion worth more than anyone elses.

HoundofShadow

I just counted and 29 characters were created between October 2017 to September 2018. Moving on...

I thought the devs treat newer players slightly better than veterans. I remember that they reset their MPQ progress somewhat often to see how the game was for newer players. Two changes I remember made for newer players were 1* Spiderman and cascades in PvEs. It just so happened that Classes of XXXX locks out most of the 1* to 3* characters. At least Angel survived the snap. 

Maybe you want to petition them to bring back classes of 2014 to 2016? 

zonatahunt

Why can’t they simply run multiple “Class of...” at the same time?  That way they could run multiple years and let players choose which one their roster is best suited for (once you choose your year the others are no longer available, that way D3 isn’t having to dish out tons of extra awards).  Just a thought.

itsuka7

acescracked said:

itsuka7 said:

I have said it before: beginners in this game are treated horribly. 

Can you gimme a few links to posts where you've said it before please. I missed em and would like to read it. Thanks!

Actually, reading back on my posts, I mainly entered the 4* perspective as opposed to the 5* perspective, when reacting to Shield training being changed and the lack of support circuit events to get better item tokens for newer players. This was one of them, but not articulated as explicitly as I now think the problem is:

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/916934#Comment_916934

my experience with starting an alt, and seeing new players drop out me made me realize the problems on the 2* and 3*  levels are worse than on the 4* lvl. So I will rant a bit more here:

To be fair, sharding and shard rewards have proven a tremendous boost to the 4* transition in terms of covers. My alt got several 4* covers by collecting shards on multiple pves on scl4, which was impossible before shards. But the hp drop implemented at that time really, really hurts the lower rosters. Prices of roster spots for beginners were not lowered, while hp rewards were severely reduced. Try to imagine having to roster 100+ 4* at 1000 hp a piece if you earn 30 hp per pve event, maybe another 20 hp if you rank well. Which you cannot, unless you have that 4* cover. And even on the lowest pve scl levels, there will be champed 5* players getting their alliance points fast and cheap, pushing lower players out of ranking rewards as a consequence. I could not believe it, but yes, there are 5* players who do that in scl1, 2 etc. Not many, luckily, but still... 

As a starting player, you do not have a 2* farm yet to supplement hp. In pvp, if you come in 1st of your bracket you earn at most 50 hp, less even than even the cheapest shield you could buy to protect that ranking, so you instead you may get 20 hp again. If you manage to get to 25 wins, you get another 30 or 40 hp. Of course, the opponents you have to face have a 5* rostered already, because there are so few 3* and lower players, the mmr matches you with those even when you are only playing 2*. And even on 1 cover, these 5* chars will make mincemeat of your 2* and 3* by match damage and cascading alone. To be able to compete, you need to roster 5* too. Ouch, another 1000 hp, which takes you 2 weeks to collect if you are very, very active. Casual play? No longer possible, unless you are fine with only 10 or so roster spots. The only way to get out is pay to play, or spend hours per day and get to roster 1 new character per 2 weeks until your 2*  farm gets going. That is, if you are lucky enough to be in the sort of alliance where people explain why you should farm.

We all had to go through that stage, is the answer many of you might feel. No, not exactly, when I raised my main through 3*, pvp would still give me enough hp rewards to pay for the cheapest shield. I remember I used to make around 150 hp or so t10 scl 6, so I could buy a shield and still make a profit hp wise. As earning 4* covers was slower, and earning hp was easier, those two elements were better balanced against each other. Also, 2 years ago there were like 60 4* as opposed to the 100+ you have to roster now, on reduced hp rewards in comparison. I don’t mind that it is tough and takes lots of time for new players to get good. It is a marathon. But new players should get the chance to find out they want to... give them a chance to get hooked before having to spend.

Daredevil217

I think it benefits the developers to lock out characters, make characters essential, boost more characters, etc. I think bringing weekly 5* boosts to PVP and bringing back heroics and more events like Evergreen would be good for business. You don’t want to lock people out of playing completely, or they will quit, but if you can Hulkoye your way through every game mode everytime, you lose incentive to build up, chase, or spend on anyone else. Now obviously I’m biased as this aligns with my “try to champ them all” playstyle. But I like when they reward a deep roster and give occasional opportunities for those rosters to shine.

Mr_F

The beggining never was an easy part. Sure, I do not know how it is to be a new nowadays but I know it wasnt easy for me too. All those problems were 3 years ago too. There weren't THE SAME in the terms you mentioned (like hp income change, covers income change etc.).

The best advice I can give: be patient and have a plan! Always have a plan! Who to get, who to chase, what SCL to play etc. One character after one. One champion after another.

And... maybe it will be sound stupid but it works - lower your expectations. At the beggining do not chase being top right away in anything, cause it will be impossible. Assume that old players will wreck you so aim for the best you can and be happy when ya get better.

For example: my HP income does not allow me to spen on shields too often. Which means i can not go for top 50 every PVP. So i do not. I choose 19 wins rewards (for shards and tokens) and when I get there with less or higher then good. I few times got into top 50 only by luck. Few time I hit 1000 pts mark also by "accident". By aiming lower I got less frustations and I can see my progress.

Even I would not be able to get top 10 in scl 1 PVE. Depite being deeply 4* player and lacking only nine 5*. Reason is the same: 5* champions players.

Aim a bit lower, but managable level and rewards (HP, CP or ISO) will just float into you. With increasing speed over time.

BeetleGeorge

I don't understand the part about 5* champions players in scl 1. I'm a 5* baby champion player and as such am beaten frequently by guys with 480+ level 5* but the lowest I could go even if I wanted would be scl 8. When I championed the 1st 5* I think it was scl 7. So how could people with a better roster go lower?