Step aside, Bishop

Borstock

You can't say the Bishop nerf will save spending on healthpacks when Hulkoye, Gritty, and teams with Polaris are doing huge dmg turn 1 and now you can't even put them on pause.

Remember when the first few turns were more about collecting AP than just trying to survive beyond turn 3?

I hate the new metas. You can basically call the outcome of every match just by looking at the opening board. At least Bishop wasn't really doing huge dmg on his own. IMO, PvP is now worse than ever.

Vhailorx

Borstock said:

You can't say the Bishop nerf will save spending on healthpacks when Hulkoye, Gritty, and teams with Polaris are doing huge dmg turn 1 and now you can't even put them on pause.

Remember when the first few turns were more about collecting AP than just trying to survive beyond turn 3?

I hate the new metas. You can basically call the outcome of every match just by looking at the opening board. At least Bishop wasn't really doing huge dmg on his own. IMO, PvP is now worse than ever.

But two things can be true.  IMO (1) bishop was bad for the game (purely because his passives triggered too easily against 5* match damage), and (2) the new meta teams that do massive damage beginning on turn 2 or make everything take 4x as long because of boosted/spammed protects are also bad for the subjective player experience.

Tiggida

All they had to do was make bishop and cap not jump in front. That’s it problem solved. 

Mr_F

Tiggida said:

All they had to do was make bishop and cap not jump in front. That’s it problem solved. 

Nope. The biggest problem of both was massive AP gain. That is why they had to reduce Worthy's CD spam so 6* Hawnkeye would not trigger so often. Bishop was a more complex case, as his AP gain was triggered by the damage and therefore jumping.

The other, probably even equally big, problem was why they were jumping. And that was due to dmg taken. So they had to change it too so Worthy and Bishop would not be triggered so easy in 5* land.

Vhailorx

Mr_F said:

Tiggida said:

All they had to do was make bishop and cap not jump in front. That’s it problem solved. 

Nope. The biggest problem of both was massive AP gain. That is why they had to reduce Worthy's CD spam so 6* Hawnkeye would not trigger so often. Bishop was a more complex case, as his AP gain was triggered by the damage and therefore jumping.

The other, probably even equally big, problem was why they were jumping. And that was due to dmg taken. So they had to change it too so Worthy and Bishop would not be triggered so easy in 5* land.

It wasn't the massive ap gain per se. Many other characters, like im40 and vulture, can produce massive amounts of ap.  The problem with the stunner Bros, particularly bishop, was the inevitability of the ap gain, and that comes down to the jump-in-front.  Because their jump in front powers triggered on almost any 5* match3, and because making matches is required, putting bishop on a team against 5* opponents guaranteed 5-10 ap on turn 2 no matter what.

HoundofShadow

I have spotted a few 5* players using Polaris and Bishop in PvPs instead of their 5* teams. I check the roster of players who beat me every time, so I think it's saying something about Polaris among some of the 5* players.

Mr_F

@Vhailorx Yes, I meant unavoidable massive AP gain as Vulture or IM40 can be stopped/avoided, theirs is not a game health problem but Bishop's and Hawkeys's through Worthy were.

DAZ0273

There are a lot more Polaris out there in the field than your average new 4* release and players are using her at lower thresholds. That is testimony to how good she is going to be.

 I haven't met a champed one yet so I may have to revise how much she gets skipped but so far I have been able to kill her and win matches.

I never had much of a problem with Bishop even though he was clearly broken on trigger thresholds and too much AP gain. I am much happier to see Cap blunted because his CD stuff is just a nightmare.

Polaris/Sabretooth will be a logical new Gritty counter but not as effective as Bishop was, lucky me I don't see too much of Hulkoye.

ThaRoadWarrior

Polaris, even champed, is massively defeatable when you are in control of the match opposing her. She isn't putting out "good" specials, just a high volume of specials, so they aren't going to be inherently problematic until a Kitty starts buffing them, or a BRB starts turning them into AP. Plus you can target her with impunity and take her out of the picture very quickly with nearly any 5* team. So I'll be curious to hear the experiences of 4* players once she gets out there in the world, but I don't see her being anything approaching a defensive nightmare like we saw with Bishop and to a lesser extent WCap.

Tiggida

Mr_F said:

Tiggida said:

All they had to do was make bishop and cap not jump in front. That’s it problem solved. 

Nope. The biggest problem of both was massive AP gain. That is why they had to reduce Worthy's CD spam so 6* Hawnkeye would not trigger so often. Bishop was a more complex case, as his AP gain was triggered by the damage and therefore jumping.

The other, probably even equally big, problem was why they were jumping. And that was due to dmg taken. So they had to change it too so Worthy and Bishop would not be triggered so easy in 5* land.

They’re not gaining that ap if they’re not jumping in front on every 5* match 3. When your facing them you could just move them to the back and one shot them. They would still be good offensively but no threat at all defensively. The defense part is where most people had the issue. So yes, that jump in front is exactly where the problem was and what most people had an issue with. 

ThaRoadWarrior

there were any number of ways that those characters could have been "fixed" such that they were attackable when AI controlled but still formidable when player controlled, but i guess it's too late for all that now.

DAZ0273

The simple option with Bishop would have been to limit how often he could fire his blue power - either he self stuns for a few rounds or has a countdown that has to resolve before he can fire again. Or maybe he jumps to the back and has to rest for a few turns.

There were plenty of options - it was really only the initial stun that mattered when "punching up". The point of Bishop from most 4* perspective was to stop the massive ramping up of special tiles a Gritty team could achieve in next to no time. In other words - he was needed to stun Kitty ASAP so the player had a chance to clear any specials and get shot of Kitty. More often than not Bishop would die during the fight so once he was in front he could sometimes even end up as a liability as he constantly threw himself in front of damage you didn't necessarilly want him to keep taking.

It is a ludicrous situation that any 4* can stunlock an entire other team though.

I wont lie though - battlin' Bishops when the other side has one too is/was chaotic fun if it wasn't a must win situation, so I will miss that a bit.

HoundofShadow

One important thing to note is that when the dev design characters, they pick three traits that they think best represent those characters and try to "fit" those traits into MPQ world. If you have seen and read those blogs written a few years back and those written this year, you should be aware of that. Removing their abilities to jump in front solve problems, but it doesn't represent the chosen traits of these characters. I understand that some players don't care about such design  philosophy and are more interested in practicality. However, I believe they have certain guidelines to help them with (re-)designing characters.

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

One important thing to note is that when the dev design characters, they pick three traits that they think best represent those characters and try to "fit" those traits into MPQ world. If you have seen and read those blogs written a few years back and those written this year, you should be aware of that. Removing their abilities to jump in front solve problem, but it can't represent the chosen traits of thess characters. I understans that some players don't care about such design  philosophy and are more interested in practicality.

This is definitely true but with the limitations that a game like MPQ has, it isn't always possible. For example - with Bishop the Overclocked ability is pretty accurate but the Energy Conversion one not so much - in fact Bishop can use his stored energies to increase his strength and recovery powers so it would have been more accurate that he made attack tiles & shields with his blue power and maybe even buffed them. The yellow power is thematic so that works OK I think.

HoundofShadow

It's definitely not possible for them to implement those traits nicely into the game, and I think how traits could be translated into MPQ is pretty subjective because it involves some sort of imaginations. They could design Bishop the way you would design him and it's logical. So, as you can see, there are many ways to design characters, and I think the team simply have to pick and discard certain abilities/effects. In the MPQ, if a character can do many stuffs with one power, the effects will be pretty weak. In Bishop's rework, he's putting out protect tile when's he's in front. If recovery and attack tiles are tagged onto this power, I think the effects might not be significant.

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

It's definitely not possible for them to implement those traits nicely into the game, and I think how traits could be translated into MPQ is pretty subjective because it involves some sort of imaginations. They could design Bishop the way you would design him and it's logical. So, as you can see, there are many ways to design characters, and I think the team simply have to pick and discard certain abilities/effects. In the MPQ, if a character can do many stuffs with one power, the effects will be pretty weak. In Bishop's rework, he's putting out protect tile when's he's in front. If recovery and attack tiles are tagged onto this power, I think the effects might not be significant.

Agreed. I think they do a decent job with most characters keeping to the spirit of them. There are outliers such as say Moon Knight's black power which makes little sense but mostly it is all well thought through.

Ab_capone

jp1 said:

Daredevil217 said:

jp1 said:

It’s a matter of perspective I guess. Pay close attention to all recent and current releases and offers. Notice any trends?

You mean the fact that Bishop was King B (beyond broken) for like two years and despite being a known problem upon his release, they didn’t nerf him until

a) everyone had exhausted resources max-champing him. 

b) the counter everyone chased (Apocalypse) has left Latest Legends.

c) they created a new shiny meta 4* for people to chase. 

Honestly. I don’t care. He’s dead. That’s all that matters to me. 

At least you can see the obvious manipulations. That’s a bonus, if you don’t mind them that’s a matter of personal taste. I haven’t used or put anything into Bishop for over six months at least, so my problem is with being treated like a simpleton. 

“Look, here are some entirely useless buffs to counteract the sledgehammer nerfs. We are nothing if not fair... Spent hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars to get these guys maxed? We’ll happily give you a tiny useless amount of ISO and HP to offset those losses (read theft).”

The whole thing is just too much of a scumbag tactic for me to stomach honestly, the fact nobody cares is good, I guess, for those people at least. Call me old school but I really miss the days when they didn’t have to rip you off to make a profit. 

In any case, I seem to be in the minority. So, I’ll leave everyone to their party, cake, cherries, etc...don’t want to spoil the fun any longer. 

Wow!! You’ve spent thousands of dollars on a free game? I’m guessing patients isn’t one of your strong suits. I’m close to 1k in CPs, saved 300x2 savory and sweet tokens and spent maybe 20-50 a year on the game itself, my roster isn’t the strongest but for being 1 year old, I think I have a pretty decent roster. And I didn’t spend thousands of dollars. That’s just....WOW!!! Why would you do such a thing, unless you are rich, which in that case, you should have a pretty strong roster... but spending that much money when you can get those covers for free, with time and saving.... I guess I can’t understand why someone would do that. 

Bishop was a beast, and an exploited cover used to secure wins like a wimp... just made me realize all those people using them for a “free” win, didn’t really know how to play the game. Them nerfing worthy cap.... that one I don’t understand. He wasn’t overpowered. He was very balanced In defense and offense. So I wish, D3 would explain why they nerfed worthy Cap cause that doesn’t make sense at all. 

Thanks for you’re time. Hope everything works out for you. 

jp1

Ab_capone said:

jp1 said:

Daredevil217 said:

jp1 said:

It’s a matter of perspective I guess. Pay close attention to all recent and current releases and offers. Notice any trends?

You mean the fact that Bishop was King B (beyond broken) for like two years and despite being a known problem upon his release, they didn’t nerf him until

a) everyone had exhausted resources max-champing him. 

b) the counter everyone chased (Apocalypse) has left Latest Legends.

c) they created a new shiny meta 4* for people to chase. 

Honestly. I don’t care. He’s dead. That’s all that matters to me. 

At least you can see the obvious manipulations. That’s a bonus, if you don’t mind them that’s a matter of personal taste. I haven’t used or put anything into Bishop for over six months at least, so my problem is with being treated like a simpleton. 

“Look, here are some entirely useless buffs to counteract the sledgehammer nerfs. We are nothing if not fair... Spent hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars to get these guys maxed? We’ll happily give you a tiny useless amount of ISO and HP to offset those losses (read theft).”

The whole thing is just too much of a scumbag tactic for me to stomach honestly, the fact nobody cares is good, I guess, for those people at least. Call me old school but I really miss the days when they didn’t have to rip you off to make a profit. 

In any case, I seem to be in the minority. So, I’ll leave everyone to their party, cake, cherries, etc...don’t want to spoil the fun any longer. 

Wow!! You’ve spent thousands of dollars on a free game? I’m guessing patients isn’t one of your strong suits. I’m close to 1k in CPs, saved 300x2 savory and sweet tokens and spent maybe 20-50 a year on the game itself, my roster isn’t the strongest but for being 1 year old, I think I have a pretty decent roster. And I didn’t spend thousands of dollars. That’s just....WOW!!! Why would you do such a thing, unless you are rich, which in that case, you should have a pretty strong roster... but spending that much money when you can get those covers for free, with time and saving.... I guess I can’t understand why someone would do that. 

Bishop was a beast, and an exploited cover used to secure wins like a wimp... just made me realize all those people using them for a “free” win, didn’t really know how to play the game. Them nerfing worthy cap.... that one I don’t understand. He wasn’t overpowered. He was very balanced In defense and offense. So I wish, D3 would explain why they nerfed worthy Cap cause that doesn’t make sense at all. 

Thanks for you’re time. Hope everything works out for you. 

Patience has nothing to do with it. There have been times when I have more money than free time, to keep up spending is a must. 

Although if you read, I didn’t explicitly state that I personally have spent that amount, it says “hundreds of hours or thousands of dollars” those being the only two ways to make progression in this “free” game. You realize it wouldn’t exist without spending right?

Anyway, enjoy being self righteous about how others choose to handle their disposable income. If it makes you feel better I am frivolous in other areas as well, I could list them out so you could critique each one individually.

fight4thedream

**Mod note: Closing thread as it has gone off topic.