Has Apocalypse change the meta?

atomzed

Following the excellent discussion of Apocalypse pros and cons in the new meta, Apocalypse is no longer in God-mode, and we can review how he has changed the meta. 

atomzed

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

I voted the second option (No, but he has created more variety to the meta). 

After playing against him, he is strong on defence, but is not scary. The other meta teams (like Thorokoye, Britty, Bishop-BRB) still remains viable against Apocalypse. 

I used different teams against Apocalypse, and i can play in my normal way. he didn't feel too difficult, even though a bad cascade and inability to deny yellow is going to cause me to lose the game.

I don't have a champ Apocalypse yet, so i can't comment how he plays on offence. but i heard good things about him.

Feliz

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

I played against a champed one, made me think but not impossible to beat. I like him actually, good variety.

BriMan2222

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

I feel he has widened the meta, he's not that character that is inarguably the best in the game but he definitely provides new options that are on par with the current meta.

My personal experience after cracking my hoard on the current latest vault and champing all of them;

I used to climb with thorkoye and then switch to brbitty in pvp when I started to get hit a bunch and now I climb with ikulk/okoye then switch to brb/apacolypse.   It's faster and more fun to play than brbitty and seems to work about as well on defense as brbitty did.

For sim I switched from using brbitty with prof $ to brbitty with apocolypse and am now able to hit bishop teams much more easily. 

I'd say he a top tier 5 star,  but if you already have one of the other meta teams you aren't gonna be left behind by not having apocalypse.  He's a great option but not a must have. 

Tony_Foot

No, the meta remains the same.

I couldn't float as high with god boost apoc and BRB as I can with BRB Kitty, so I switched back and had a much better time of no hits again. I regret breaking hoard on Apoc and ihulk but it's done now and they can join the others I have and never or rarely use.

ihulks my own fault, I took him up too high at 430 and he tanks too many colours for pve. I was only concentrating on not tanking red over okoye and forgot about purple blue.

Vhailorx

Tony_Foot said:

I couldn't float as high with god boost apoc and BRB as I can with BRB Kitty, so I switched back and had a much better time of no hits again. I regret breaking hoard on Apoc and ihulk but it's done now and they can join the others I have and never or rarely use.

ihulks my own fault, I took him up too high at 430 and he tanks too many colours for pve. I was only concentrating on not tanking red over okoye and forgot about purple blue.

People may actually be more likely to attack an apoc right now when he is still somewhat rare in the wild and people want to experiment. 

It wouldn't surprise me if apoc doesn't enter the defensive meta (hard to do so without a strong passive). But overall I basically fall into the "it's too early to tell" camp.  It was  3-4 months after BRB came out before brbitty became  really hard to avoid in PVP. 

Borstock

No, the meta remains the same.

I've had zero trouble against him so far while running BRBitty.

BigSoftieFF

No, the meta remains the same.

He isn’t broken enough to be meta.

Bill = broken beyond belief.
Bishop = that horse is long been dead.

Much to Apocalypse’s chagrin he’s a well designed character without a broken mechanic.

Carry on with Britty and Bishop/Bill. It’s all there is to use.

wymtime

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

Apocalypse is great on offense but not great on defense.  I still see a lot of BRB, Kitty/Bishop teams.  I also see a lot of IHulk, Okoye teams.  

I would relate Apocalypse to an Okoye type character great on offense but bad on defense.  I love using him even at 451 he is super fast with 1/2 health Thor but the AI plays him poorly.  This is what the meta characters should be like instead of BRB/Kitty teams that just take forever to play

Kross

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

I champed him last night and starting playing around with him. I tried some teams and his yellow/black combo can do some crazy damage, especially if you put him with Okoye.

My feeling was he's strong, but no where near as game changing as original 5* Gambit or Bishop was.

But I do loving using him so far.

DyingLegend

Maybe. its too early to say.

I haven't really seen alot of people using him. Give it a month or two then we will see if he shakes it up.

I see a whole lot more Okoye/IHulk combos all over the place now and BRB/Kitty are still just as prevalent 

gravel

Maybe. its too early to say.

I fought my first non-boosted Apocalypse in the Onslaught PvP yesterday, partnered with BRB.  The high health pool is definitely intimidating and does leave some time for things to go wrong, but he wasn't too bad to beat.  Since he was partnered with Onslaught, he couldn't be stunned, but the game allowed me to fire Bishop's blue at him, and use the blue just to reduce the opposing AP.  Nothing major, but if he's tanking, Bishop can burn the blue AP without stunning anyone if he has the right partner, rather than hoarding it until someone stunnable is in front.

658_2

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

With Bishop being broken with both Wiccan and DP it’s really too early to say if he’s changed the meta. I hit a couple big BRB/Bishops with Apoc/PX and annihilated them. That team might not be viable above 900 except for hops anymore (still quite speedy for hops), and that would be a big change in the meta.

Apoc himself definitely not meta, yet. However, he also doesn’t have a good partner, yet. The problem being he’s way slower than he looks on paper. BRB/Apoc unboosted is molasses slow. You need about 10 moves to really get that going. Thor/Apoc is quick, but only a small improvement defensively on Thorkoye. 

That said, they could make a character that speeds him up pretty easily and he’s got huge beast potential. For example, Falcon is surely coming soon with the Disney+ show. If they made him basically a 5* version of Vulture, playing well with both Apoc and iHulk, the conversation could switch instantly.

658_2

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

I just hit a 502 BRB/369 Bishop, a 497 BRB/334 Bishop, and a 478 BRB/370 Bishop, right in a row in Onslaught pvp with my 466 BRB/450 Apoc and 459 PX/Apoc. Zero wipes. Not even close to any wipes. Apoc/mutant eats BRB/Bishop’s lunch. 

Daredevil217

This thread has turned into another nerf Bishop / debate on nerfing Bill thread. That’s how powerful this combo is (by the way, Bill is fine, Bishop should be nerfed). 

Apocalypse has the high health to deal with BRB blue hits, the stun immunity to deal with Bishop blue stuns, and the protect tile ignoring to deal with boosted protect spam. Anyone complaining about this meta team and yet NOT voting for Apocalypse as being a part of the meta... you confuse me. 

Polares

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

Daredevil217 said:

This thread has turned into another nerf Bishop / debate on nerfing Bill thread. That’s how powerful this combo is (by the way, Bill is fine, Bishop should be nerfed). 

Apocalypse has the high health to deal with BRB blue hits, the stun immunity to deal with Bishop blue stuns, and the protect tile ignoring to deal with boosted protect spam. Anyone complaining about this meta team and yet NOT voting for Apocalypse as being a part of the meta... you confuse me. 

Yes, please, nerf Bishop (I also agree BRB is not the problem, Bishop triggering by a simple match3 from a 5 is).

I think he is not part of the meta because his main teammates right now, Thor and BRB are not mutants. So If you play him with them, then he is no immune to stun. If you play him with ProfX or Iceman it is not as good as with those other two. He doesnt play well with Kitty. So in the end some people just prefer to keep running BRBishop or brbitty. 


PS: I think they should have made him immune to stun without any conditions.

Jacklag

I know it doesn't really help those 5* players that want to play exclusively 5* teams but a mutant that makes Defense tiles for Apoc to consume is Magik. Sure, they share a color but at least her purple fuels Red for his other attack. Does Bishop jump in front of Survival of the Fittest when it wouldn't normally target him?

fight4thedream

**Mod note: Split the discussion on Beta and Bishop into its own thread.

Please keep thread on topic. Thanks!

Jacklag

Jacklag said:

I know it doesn't really help those 5* players that want to play exclusively 5* teams but a mutant that makes Defense tiles for Apoc to consume is Magik. Sure, they share a color but at least her purple fuels Red for his other attack. Does Bishop jump in front of Survival of the Fittest when it wouldn't normally target him?

Another mutant that I think will work well with Apoc might be Cable, ironically enough. He may not produce Defense tiles, but he makes Strike tiles, which improve both of Apocalypse's multiple hits powers and fortifies Apocalypse's repeaters, as to make sure you have protect tiles for black to consume

GrimSkald

No, but he has created more variety to the meta.

Hokay.  So I've been full on drawing since Apocalypse went into tokens, at first from a medium sized hoard of about 140 pulls, and going on, and I'm to about 210 at this point.  I got really lucky and drew Apocalypse the most, so I've been able to play with a fully covered, mildly champed (451) one for a few days now.

I do think he's broadening the Meta.  I'll go into detail below:

- the big thing is his yellow functions a lot like Okoye's passive - it adds to all damage done by powers.  The upside of it is you don't need to gather TU to make it effective.  The downside is you need to gather yellow and actually cast it.  Since it really spams those repeaters you generally can keep the power running, but a bad cascade can definitely ruin your day (as always.)  When you play Apocalypse, you chase yellow.

- His red and black are seriously enhanced by his yellow.  They go from halfway decent to absolutely devastating. His black has the added drawback of requiring protect tiles, but see below.

- BRB is his obvious partner for so many reasons.  They only overlap on Bill's passive, BRB can spam protect tiles, BRB's green becomes amazing with Apoc Yellow, and Apocalypse's black feeds Bill (yes, the protect tiles are "destroyed.")

- Apoc's anti-stun is good, but is somewhat board-dependent.  You can't always rely on getting him in front.  On the other hand, mutants do abound in the game, so when  you have a three person team you'll probably be able to work it out.

- Apoc/BRB/Bishop is a nasty, nasty climbing team in Sim.  Bishop is mostly there to feed Bill, but he can be used to stun, say, Kitty on the other team.  It can even take on other Bishop teams, for reasons listed above.  Bishop prevents the protect tile spam generator, unfortunately, until Apoc's yellow starts producing, but he's really good at feeding Bill and/or the odd stun here and there to get things going.  It's not quite as good defensively  (the CPU won't chase yellow, or wait to cast black,) but it can still get those defensive wins just as any team with Bishop in it.

So that's my take - I think he's quite good and will at least shift/broaden the Meta some.  He doesn't self-feed, so I don't think he's really going to change it, per se, and we'll see if you can maneuver him in front often enough to make his stun resistance a game changer.  My gut says it isn't, but is a nice perk.

Tiger_Wong

Apoc is one of the best characters in the game. While that may not make him meta (usage determines that), he’s great. His best ability is probably the fact that Thorpocalypse runs through BRBitty teams like nobody’s business. Just make sure you match an enemy shield early and deny blue, kill Kitty (maybe deny red a bit), then kill BRB. 

Then vs BRGritty, just add BSSM, and don’t worry about matching shields early. Deny blue, kill R&G first (see if you can not use Apoc’s red on R&G if you can), deny red (there won’t be a lot anyway cuz of Thor), then kill Kitty, saving the black nuke for a one-shot to BRB.